I'm ready to get into muzzleloading...need opinions

[Love Life]

delete

[Tatume]

We see lots of good used guns on the swap list here. In fact I have a couple I'm thinking of selling. If you're interested PM me and I'll tell you what I have.

[Mk42gunner]

With your budget I wouldn't get one of the low dollar/ quality guns. You should be able to find a T/C, Lyman etc. for that price.

Check out some pawn shops for rifles; despite the prices online for used Thompson Center guns, I bought two .54 calibers for $175 and $100 (a Renegade and a New Englander, respectively) at two different pawn shops.

Additional items needed (caliber dependant, obviously):

Round balls
Patch material
BP
Caps, a capper is nice
Patch lube, pillow ticking gets pretty tasteless after the first few shots.
Powder container-- horn, flask, etc.
Powder mesure-- adjustable is nice to have.
Patch knife-- unless you use precut patches.
Nipple wrench.
Something to keep all this stuff in.

I am sure I forgot something, but this should get you going.

Good Luck

Robert

[dualsport]

I'm thinking back up a step, what do you want to do with your new smokepole? That will help figure out what to get. The .50 cal. is the most popular, but .36, .32, .45, .54 and so on are out there. Do you want to go traditional mostly? A slow twist for round balls is best for that. Faster twists are ok and shoot conicals better. Hawken, Kentucky, military muskets, lots of choices. Once you're bitten you'll want more. The shotguns are a lot of fun.

[Maven]

"I see the T/C and Lyman rifles are all 50 caliber." ...Love Life

LL, If you're talking about traditional (Plains style) caplock rifles, that's just not so. While Lyman (Investarms) offers a .50cal. (.490" RB), T/C at one time sold .32cal.-, .36cal-, .45cal.-, .50cal.-.54cal.-, .56cal. (smoothbore, originally to accomodate MA hunting regulations), and .58cal. The quality of both brands is quite good, and barring a bad bbl., both can be scary accurate. However, T/C's come with a lifetime guarantee whereas Investarms products don't; although Lyman may now be willing to address complaints or so I've read. However, now that T/C has been absorbed by S & W, service may no longer be free. Then too, traditional T/C rifles haven't been produced for awhile, so if you're considering one, try to deal with a business or individual you know so that you can see and handle the gun prior to purchasing it. Pay particular attention to the condition of the bbl., as not everyone who shoots BP or Pyrodex is fastidious about cleaning & maintenance.

[Tatume]

With your budget I wouldn't get one of the low dollar/ quality guns. You should be able to find a T/C, Lyman etc. for that price.

Check out some pawn shops for rifles; despite the prices online for used Thompson Center guns, I bought two .54 calibers for $175 and $100 (a Renegade and a New Englander, respectively) at two different pawn shops.

Additional items needed (caliber dependant, obviously):

Round balls
Patch material
BP
Caps, a capper is nice
Patch lube, pillow ticking gets pretty tasteless after the first few shots.
Powder container-- horn, flask, etc.
Powder mesure-- adjustable is nice to have.
Patch knife-- unless you use precut patches.
Nipple wrench.
Something to keep all this stuff in.

I am sure I forgot something, but this should get you going.

Good Luck

Robert

Robert's list is nice, but I would recommend some plastic tubes to carry pre-measured charges of powder. I don't like to measure powder at the range, and don't carry loose powder when I go hunting.

Some people like cappers, but I don't. My preference is to put caps on with my fingers.

Add to the nipple wrench some high-temperature anti-seize compound (from any auto-parts store). Remove the nipple every time you clean the gun, clean the nipple, and dope the threads with anti-seize compound every time you replace the nipple. Be sure not to get the compound on the open end, and so obstruct the fire path. (Need I add, clean the gun every time you shoot it?)

Get a small spray bottle and fill it with water, add a drop of dishwashing detergent. Use this for wetting patches that you use to clean your rifle. Some people also use a cleaning nipple that threads into the percussion cap nipple opening, and accepts a piece of rubber tubing. The other end is inserted into a tub of hot water, and the hot water is drawn up and down the bore with a cleaning rod and patch. In the alternative, you can remove the barrel of a hooked-breech rifle and dip the breech end in the tub.

Some will howl in protest, but I find a patch wetted with WD-40 is good to follow the cleaning routine, as it removes the last remaining water. Follow with a dry patch to remove the WD-40. Your choice, but it’s what I do. If you don't want to use WD-40, consider substituting alcohol.

End the cleaning session with a lubricated swab of the bore and the exterior of the gun. I use T/C 1000+ Bore Butter for this purpose, but many different all natural oils and greases are available. Use non-petroleum materials for this and for patch lubes (the use of WD-40 excepted and used only for sopping up water, and the WD-40 is essentially completely removed before the gun is fired again).

Welcome aboard the BP hobby. It’s a dirty, disgusting habit. :-)

Take care, Tom

[451 Pete]

Welcome aboard! Just a couple of additional thoughts. If you are going to buy a used ML rifle check out the bore with a bore light. More guns are ruined by not cleaning properly than any other way. Also check out the lock to make sure it will stay on the half cock notch safely. If it does not come with an owners manual a call to TC or Lyman will get you one. This will give you the basics for loading, cleaning and maintaining your rifle.

A couple of things to add to Roberts list of things to get in the above post.
1.) A good cleaning Jag in the cal. of the rifle
2.) a short starter to start the ball and patch in the bore
3.) a screw threaded to attach to your ram rod or cleaning rod ( sooner or later you will dry ball a load with no powder and have to pull the round ball or bullet out , we all have done it at one time or another )
4.) a worm to retrieve a lost patch

Adding this to Roberts list above should be enough to get you started. If you are going hunting you will need a pouch to carry all of this in. I also carry a small leak proof plastic bottle of solvent or bore cleaner, cleaning patch's and a small leather pouch to hold round balls in.

Good luck and have fun ..... Pete

[rdstrain]

Most folks don't have a bore light for black powder. The best way I have found is to use a nickel plated cartridge that will drop down the bore, then use a high intensity flashlight to illuminate the bore. The light will reflect off the base of the nickel cartridge and light up the bore. Very cheap and works very well. Just be sure that the case is smaller than the bore of the rifle and moves freely.

[451 Pete]

[QUOTE=rdstrain;1449343]Most folks don't have a bore light for black powder. The best way I have found is to use a nickel plated cartridge that will drop down the bore, then use a high intensity flashlight to illuminate the bore.

Good idea. Here is just another way. You can go to Wally World and pick up a small led light that they sell for using in certain fishing bobbers when night fishing. These things are about an inch long and around 3/16 diameter. They cost around $4.00, fit any size bore and last a long time if they are only left on long enough to examine a bore. I keep one in my cleaning box and so far it has lasted for about 2 years. They are also pretty handy to take to a gun show just to check out that great buy when the dealer doesn't have a bore light.

Pete

[nicholst55]

While I primarily shoot .54 and .62 rifles, I would recommend that someone just starting out buy a .50 rifle. Nearly all of the accessories and round balls that you will find locally are going to be .50. If you need anything for a different caliber, you will have to order it online. A .50 rifle will kill anything that walks on the North American continent with proper bullet placement.

[rdstrain]

451 Pete;
Guess I'll have to try and get into town more often, never seen anything like that. Great idea. (probably makes too much sense for me to try though :))

[mooman76]

If you can find someone near by that shoot and will take you out with them shooting, it will help you out allot to decide what you may want and need. I see good used ones all the time.

[docone31]

My regret, is not getting the Lyman Great Plains Rifle. It is patterned after the Jim Bridger Hawken, complete with iron furniture. The twist is for RBs, but I suspect it will do ok with some others.
I got a Cabelas/Traditions Hawken in .50cal. 1/48 twist. Not bad. RBs, R.E.A.L.s good enough at 100yds for me. I just swapped out the front sight for a .400 German silver blade. I had already put in a buckhorn rear sight. Now, I can see better.
I am wanting a GPR, and I do not even know why. My Cabelas is a pretty good rifle. The TC is a good one also. I just wanted a GPR and the Cabelas was less expensive. I have since spent more than if I had just gotten it. I put on a German Silver nosecap, rear sight, front sight, Ampco nipple, etc...
The rifles are addictive. Perhaps I should engrave the patch box, or put on a sideplate and engrave it. Gotta make the gravers, or use my Gravermax. Either way, it is something to do.
That is what I would do.

[tacklebury]

I have a Traditions 50 Hawken Woodsman and a Traditions Buckskinner .50 Kentucky Pistol both shoot great and both combined cost me less than $500 bucks. ;) This hawken is $284 still ;)

http://www.myhostedpics.com/images/tacklebury/traditionswoodsmanriflebuckskinnerpistol.jpg

http://www.traditionsfirearms.com/product_info.php?products_id=135&osCsid=edc3c47cb5d60afa1c16f20d4fa897ce

Unfortunately, they've sold out of the Buckskinner pistol. 8( I like .50 cals just because it's much easier to find loading components. I've hit the 10x10 gong off hand with the pistol at 70 yards and 100 with the hawken.

[rdstrain]

The TC is a great choice. The 48" twist will shoot RB or Mini & maxi. Plus with the hooked breach you can swap barrels for more specialized application.

[ss40_70]

1/32 is getting a bit fast for round ball , it will probly do ok with very light loads , but is intended for conicals

[451 Pete]

Love Life,

The TC Hawken and the Lyman Great Plains rifles are both good choices. Barrel twist is what determines what it is most accurate with. A round ball wants a slower twist and a conical wants the faster twist rate. From the factory either one should pretty much do what you want. The TC is a 1-48 twist and the Lyman a 1-60. The TC is a kind of universal twist to stabilize both conicals and RB, the Lyman with the slower twist is better suited to the RB. Both are well made with ( IMO ) the Lyman being a bit more traditional in appearance with the blued metal furniture instead of brass. Eiother way both are good rifles.

You ask how many shots can be fired without having to wipe out the bore. The answer to this can vary depending on what you are shooting ( bullet or RB ) , amount of powder charge, type of powder, even humidity, but you should be able to fire several shots before fouling starts making it a bit hard to load.

Take care ... Pete

[Alan]

LL,
One of the advantages of PRB is that if the patch/ball combo is right, and the lube is fresh, you can shoot all day without having to wipe. Sometimes the prelubed store bought patches are ok, but if they sit on the shelf too long they can dry out to the point that loading becomes difficult after a few shots. For target shooting, a good wet spit patch, or Hoppe's #9 Plus applied just before you load will clean the bore as you shoot and eliminate the need for wiping.

For hunting, 10-15 shots without wiping is normally plenty, unless you are hunting jackrabbits in a good year. 8) Hunting lubes must be able to stay in the barrel for hours and not dry out, or cause rust. Generally you will want to use a grease or oil. Deer tallow, bear oil, or a mixture of various oils and beeswax have been used for years successfully. I'm testing out Track of the Wolf's Mink Oil patch lube, and it seems to be doing well. 1/2 lb is $6, and goes a LONG way. The slicker lubes might require a few grains more powder than water based lubes to shoot well.

For field use under 100 yards, PRB's will shoot drastically flatter than conical bullets, but for .50 and up, you don't want anything faster than 1:48" twist, and 1:60 would be better for the balls. The other advantage for PRB is they don't have to be pure lead. Range scrap works perfectly well, is generally cheaper, and will penetrate better if heavy bones are hit.

[dualsport]

Get a Dixie Gun Works catalog, everything you ever wanted.

[quilbilly]

It is hard to go wrong with any of the T/C's you find in good condition. I own four. There are lots of them around in pawn shops and gun shows for well under $300. For deer I am partial to the 45 with round ball but every one of my 50's has taken several deer plus an elk or two. it is also a little easier to draw an Nevada deer tag with a muzzleloader.

[405]

Love Life,

I've built, owned, traded, sold and shot or hunted with about every type of ML since the late 60s. So have built up some strong opinions about them- some of it justified and some pure prejudice :)

I like the idea posted earlier in this thread about finding someone in your area who has one and going with them to shoot. Then be patient while looking for a favorable type in gun shows, pawn shops, gun stores, web auction sites, classified ads in local papers, friends, word of mouth, etc.

Having looked over and dealt with so many brands and types I'm still partial to US made guns. That pretty much narrows it to US made kit forms, custom guns and of course T/C. In the used market in at least a "traditional style" it's hard to beat a T/C "Hawken" in 50 cal or a "Renegade" in 54 cal for the type of shooting you want to do.

AS WITNESSED in multiple threads in this forum, many of the older sidelocks from the 70s-80s were bought, shot and forgotton by owners who had little use for gun care, much less how to care for MLs. When looking at these used MLs make sure of bore condition. The small drop in lights are worth the few dollars they cost for doing this critical inspection of MLs.

The various possibles for shooting MLs is near endless but in a pinch most can easily be made for near nothing. Real BP, pillow ticking for RB, RBs, nipple wrench and caps will get you shooing. Use a good ramrod for loading and a good cleaning rod with proper jag for cleaning. good luck!

[Alan]

gunbroker is your friend. I was picking up pretty decent hawkens and renegades for $100-$150 last year.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=258589448

and a .54:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=258861247

must....resist....urge...to....poach..........argh !

[Alan]

Hope you're the one that snagged that .54!

[OnHoPr]

I'd stick with the .50 cal. 405 gave good advise on makes and guns. I prefer the U.S. steel and I was one of those inexperienced "80's" smokepolers. I'd consider new and a strict regiment of cleaning, I mean TODAY! Though a SS from an import (rrrggg) could be considered with start up cost. It's not the highest grade SS, not even close. The start up list was pretty good, but I would like to add to it. The thickness of patches should be though of, if you go out your first time and your patch is to thin or to thick, you will wonder WHAT IN THE HECK. Get a variety of thicknesses. If you dry ball it and have a hard time trying to get the ball out with the screw extractor take the nipple off and put 5 or 10 grains in the nipple hole and situate to the back of the ball, then put the nipple back on and fire it, the ball should come out. The 1 in 66" is best for the RB, but not that great for the Maxi's, conicals, and sabots. Where the RB will still hit minute of deer at a 100 yards with the faster twist. Though, IMO shooting the Maxi's and sabots aren't that fun. Shooting the PRB can be FUN.

[mooman76]

Don't matter what you get. Their like tader chips. Can't have just one, once you've tried one.

[gmsharps]

Don't forget to get a bag to carry all of the stuff you need to make your rifle operate call a possibles bag. If you are hunting deer sized game I would not go below a 50 cal. Not saying you can't use the 45 with good success but why leave anything to chance. I have Seneca in 36 with a spare 45 barrel for it but use them for smaller game.
gmsharps

[ktw]

The Lyman Great Plains Rifle has been my preference over the TC's largely because I prefer the greater drop in the buttstock and slower round ball twist rate of the Lyman. Both the Lyman/Interarms and the TC are good rifles, particularly as a caplocks.

The Lyman is available as the Great Plains Hunter in a fast twist for sabbots/conicals or as a Great Plains Rifle in a slow twist for roundballs. Other than that these are identical rifles.

Lyman also offers the Deer Stalker (shorter barrel, modern buttpad, 1 in 48" mid range twist) and the Trade Rifle (a lot like the TC Hawken with brass hardware and 1 in 48" mid range twist).

All of these are available in either 50 or 54 caliber. Both have the same 15/16" exterior barrel profile so the 54 will be a slightly lighter rifle than the 50, if that matters to you.

-ktw

[DIRT Farmer]

Another route, if you can get a T-C Hawken or Renagade cheap enough, I have found them for 25 dollars at yard sales with sewer pipe barrels you can buy drop in barrels for round ball or go all the way to a 1-18 in a 45 for the poor boys long range gun. I would definatly recomend the Renagade with its shot gun butt. I have on with a 50, 58 and 45 slug twist.

[Alan]

Don't matter what you get. Their like tader chips. Can't have just one, once you've tried one.

Duuude, you aren't supposed to tell him that 'til AFTER we have him hooked.

Leave a pair alone in a safe, and when you come back they have triplets....

[MBTcustom]

I just bought a T/C Hawken .54 for $60 "That's a darnd good price." Then I went to the Muzzle loaders supply store and bought a box of 50 RB boolits two pounds of powder, two hundred primers, and a bullet starter for $70. Went to hancock fabrics and got a yard of pillow ticking for $10. Ordered a RB mold from midway for $25. So I'm up and running for $165. Cheap enough.

[Alan]

<sets the hook>

[MBTcustom]

And then yesterday, a friend offered to sell me his flintlock .50 for $50 :violin:
It starts

[Good Cheer]

And don't forget the wonderful people that are available to rebore a sewer pipe barrel and give it a lovely pristine new set of rifling. Turning a 50 into a 54 or 54 into a 58 or 60. Or a smooth bore 58 or 62.
It's enough to make you do the happy happy joy joy dance.

[451 Pete]

Well, welcome aboard! Don't forget to wash the starch out of that pillow ticking. When it dries it will tighten up the weave a bit too.

Take care .... Pete

[Mk42gunner]

How could I forget a short starter? Although from whatI understand they are a semi-modern addition, as most original shooting/possibles bags did not contain a short starter.

Another thing regarding T-C Renegades-- there are two versions. The plain Renegade had a single trigger, the Deluxe version has a double set trigger.

When, (not if) you load a dry ball, I have always pulled the nipple and loaded a few grains of powder under the ball and reaseated it before firing, I have never used a ball puller in my life, (it looks too much like work, plus I don't like being in front of a muzzle).

If you think muzzle loading rifles are fun, wait until you start shooting cap & ball revolvers...

Robert

[MBTcustom]

As it happens, I grew up on cap and ball revolvers. Got my first one when I was 13. I was home-schooled so I got to shoot on my lunch break. That was back when you could mail order a cap and ball revolver and kit from Cabela's for $70.
By the way, in case any body is interested, I called Ed Rayl and asked about his barrel re-boring services, He charges $135 plus return shipping to bore any BP rifle barrel to the next larger size. Kinda gets you to thinkin.....
Of course, I dont know how much it costs to ship a barrel both ways. It might be better to just buy a green mountain barrel for $200 and get all new bluing etc.

[starmac]

Can't you still mail order them.
That is nice to know about the reboring service, what kind of rep does he have as far as accuracy.
I suppose he can also put the twist you want in a rebore.

[bearcove]

Yeah, but not for $70.

[405]

Can't you still mail order them.
That is nice to know about the reboring service, what kind of rep does he have as far as accuracy.
I suppose he can also put the twist you want in a rebore.

Ed Rayl barrels have very good rep. As far as reboring, I'd think that if the hole in the original barrel was straight, the reboring-rerifling would turn out fine.

[405]

Of course, I dont know how much it costs to ship a barrel both ways. It might be better to just buy a green mountain barrel for $200 and get all new bluing etc.

I just shipped a barrel about 1/2 way across the country. Total length was 42", 2" dia PVC tube and wgt 6 lb. The cheapest insured ground w/tracking(UPS, FedEx) was $45. Cheapest USPS was about $37. :(

[Sixgun Symphony]

Please consider joining the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association. They put out a great membership magazine titled "MUZZLEBLASTS" and they sponser competitions. Check out the hyperlink in my signature line.