flyers

[lead chucker]

What is the most common cause of flyers iget good groups with my cva 44 but seems like i always get a couple flyers to mess up a good group.

[btroj]

Man, talk aout a general question.
Could be a mechanical issue with the rifle. Could be shooter error. Could be a sighting problem. Could be a load issue.

So many things can cause big groups or 2 in 1 hole, 3 in another groups that it is almost impossible to know without ALOT more info.

What load? What range? What sights? Exact rifle info. How shot? Offhand? Rested? You can see how many variables there are.

[lead chucker]

cva rifle 44 mag 20 gr 2400, 310 lee gc 50 yards solid rest scope rifle. I know there is alot to do with it but thought what the most common cause was and go from there. I get ggod groups and then a wild flyer. First shot out of a cold barrel also hits high. Tried several loads and this one was best but not reliable

[geargnasher]

First shot fliers are a combination of bore condition and lube. If you clean your bore thoroughly after each shooting session you can expect first-shot, cold barrel flyers every single time. If you're hunting with this gun, shoot five or ten the day before a hunt and don't clean it. Depending on the lube, this may or may not completely solve the problem.

Some lubes are better at preventing first-shot flyers from a seasoned, "dirty" barrel than others. 357Maximum has invested a tremendous amount of time and research on developing a lube formula that reduces the cold barrel flyer effect, hopefully he'll chime in here and explain. His formula is in the lube recipe sticky of the boolit lube sub-forum. I see you're in Alaska where it gets cold, and 357Maximum lives in a cold climate too and his lube has been proven very effective in low temps vs. many, many other lube forumulas. I live in the blasted scorching pits of arid hell (AKA SW Texas), and require a different lube to accomplish the same thing. If it's below 50 degrees F I don't hunt, but I might hunt in 100+ degree weather.

Other basic things to check with your random flyiers are: Are the bases perfectly filled and sharp? Are you weighing your boolits? Are there voids just under the surface of the bases? (check by probing with a sharp pin). Try pushing a tight, clean patch through the barrel after each shot in a group, if that improves the groups you might take a closer look at the lube you're using.

Gear

[lead chucker]

Gearnasher Thank you for the info I have home made lube its soft and i hand lube one at a time its time consuming but i dont mind.

[geargnasher]

If you get a pattern of several shots in a group, one flyer, several shots back in the group, a flyer, and so on, that's almost a dead-ringer for lube. I picked up the term "purge flyer" from this forum, as it's what many of the members call a flyer that's caused by a predictable cycle of lube accumulation and regular "purging" throughout a shooting session. If you're having true flyers and not just erratic grouping this would be something to look at.

BUT, don't forget the obvious: Poor boolit consistency, bedding/action issues, mixed headstamp brass, inconsistent crimp or trim length, powder location in the case, and shooter error (especially when following-through the recoil).

Gear

[lead chucker]

I have alot of brass about 2500 cases im sure. would mixed brands of brass have that much impact on accuracy? From what i understand 2400 isnt case position sensitive. corect me if im rong. Is there a more forgiving powder for the 44 than 2400 when it comes to accuracy?

[geargnasher]

2400 can be extremely position-sensitive, and yes, it can matter that much about the mixed brass. Differences in case wall thickness, state of anneal, and length affect boolit pull, which affects accuracy, especially in straight-walled cases. If you want to shoot tight groups you must be consistent in every aspect of loading, and use powders which promote consistency also. I'd recommend a tuft of Dacron, about half a grain, in between the powder and the boolit base to keep the powder located. You might be surprised how much just this one little change can make with 2400 in a straigh-walled cartridge.

Gear

[lead chucker]

Thanks for clearing that all up for me I just finished segregating 100 cases sized trimed and cleaned primer pockets will bell tomorow . I will try the dacron Thanks for all you replys Lots to learn here.

[runfiverun]

if that don't work i'd firm up the lube some.
the velocity variation flyers are generally more vertical than random,
they can also be caused by just plain old inconsistent primer seating.

[waksupi]

if that don't work i'd firm up the lube some.
the velocity variation flyers are generally more vertical than random,
they can also be caused by just plain old inconsistent primer seating.

That was kinda what I was thinking, Lamar. A harder lube will cut back on instances of lube purging.

[lead chucker]

Thanks for the info Iwill try any thing to fix this. Thanks again.

[mpmarty]

Most of my flyers are caused by the optics behind the scope.

[1Shirt]

Dozens of answers to the question, BUT----in the vast majority of answers is the factor of human error. In the casting process, in the sizing process, in the loading process, in trimming, and of course in the shooting. Flyers keep us humble, (or at least keep a large percentage of us humble).
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Sonnypie]

Most of my flyers are caused by the optics behind the scope.

That, and flinch factor... :lol: (My biggest problem)
I can't really blame my optics with these new scopes anymore. Focus and parallax adjustments are wonderful things to have with my ageing eyes. ;-)

A "Lead Sled (http://www.amazon.com/Caldwell-Lead-Recoil-Reducing-Rifle/dp/B0023MHZLA/ref=sr_1_2?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1320163880&sr=1-2)" can go a long way towards deciding about the human part of the equation. But the cost?

[leftiye]

If thas a single shot (CVA), then you can remove the issue of crimp/pull strength factor by expanding the cases enough that you can "thumb seat" the boolits. Uniform boolit pull. Roll crimp a little to fix the boolit in position. Seat out to touch the lands.

[geargnasher]

Thumb-seating in loose brass over 2400 never gave me good results in anything, YMMV.

Ric, I'd like to add that cutting back on lube, period, can help instances of lube purging as well. Most of the time I only lube the bottom or maybe the bottom two grooves of rifle boolits and find slightly better accuracy and consistency.

Gear

[44man]

Good answers all.
Fliers? Mostly inconsistent boolit pull. Boolits too soft. Twist rate? I bet it is 1 in 38" and just can't stabilize the heavy boolit. Magnum primers moving boolits out different amounts before full ignition.
Then hard lube with a loss of some off the boolit in flight.
First shot miss is common and I refuse to hunt with a clean bore except for a muzzle loader. If I clean my revolver I just take one shot downrange, it has proven enough even if I am target shooting. Many times I just shoot the first at the paper and it is always out but all the rest will group.
The clean barrel is the worst for the first shot. I remember my old IHMSA days when I made the mistake of cleaning my guns, single shots, etc. I was hoping for a fouling shot but never had the chance. I would miss the first 50 meter chicken with every clean gun only to clean the other 39. I lost the shoots with the first shot! I could only hope others would miss something, not to be. The first 40 shots were a waste of ammo because only the shoot off chickens at 200 meters determined the winners.
I was International class and shot with the best. Blackie Sleeva, Josie Engle (Who, by the way set an off hand record of 36 out of 40, with a Tender. Then Carter Jones shot a 37.) Boyd Carpenter and many other greats.
I worked the .44 SBH to 40 out of 40 and is where I figured out the revolver and the cartridge. Nobody out shot me with any .44.
Then some pencil pusher screwed up and made the .44 rifle with the wrong twist. I never solved it and sold my Marlin because it would not shoot my hunting loads, it was a little bullet gun.
Check the twist on the CVA. It really needs 1 in 20" to a max of 1 in 25" for the Lee 310.
I hate to rain on a parade but some guns will never shoot.

[btroj]

I don't use some lubes for hunting in the winter due to cold barrel flyers. Not jut a clean barrel but even a fouled barrel, some lubes need a warm barrel to work well. I am talking below 50 degrees.

How big a group are you getting? How far out are the bad shots? Are our expectations realistic?

Bullet pull and lube are big potential factors. 44 man is also rot in the some guns don't want to shoot well, that is always a tough call. I have a Marlin 1894 in 357 that drove me nuts. No groups at 50 yards better than 4 inches. It was horrible. En I found the rot bullet for that gun, it will now do better than 4 inches at 100 yards. Sometimes you just need to work on tweaking the bullet/lube/powder combination to see what works.

Biggest key is to never give up. Change just one variable at a time so you know what did, or didn't, help.

[44man]

I have tested Felix lube to -10* with good luck.
Long ago I bought a tube of Wonder lube or the TC stuff, don't remember, for my muzzle loader. I was out of Young Country. I kept it inside my coat but needed to drive on the tube with a truck to get any out! I hunted PA in Jan, flintlock. COLD, but super beautiful.
I had my glove freeze to my barrel many times but there is nothing like tracking deer with a flintlock in the snow.
I have tracked and shot many, many deer in the cold and snow with my revolvers using Felix.
I will not use a lube that needs a heater to apply. The stop limit for me is CR. I don't use it in the cold. I will no longer use anything with Alox. I really hate the stuff.
I have a dozen Lee boolit size dies and gave away all of the Alox. If they left the junk out of the kit, the price would be lower.
Lube must work in any conditions. I never had "lube purge from a barrel". Lube purge to me means all the remaining lube is spun off the boolit at the muzzle. The next best is none spins off the boolit but that is much too hard to have happen. Recover boolits with chunks missing and you will see.
Some like to see some lube left on a boolit they find. It has HURT you. Lube does not work in the air. You worry about an air pocket in the boolit but lose half the lube in flight.
With the right lube, the amount left in the bore never increases. It is such a small amount it could not be weighed. Boolits do not "run over" lube. Lube keeps powder fouling soft enough to be shot out with the next shot. Boolits can "run over" lead, copper and ash. The lube star at the muzzle only means the boolit is being "purged" of lube as it leaves and enough was on the boolit during it's trip through the bore.
Alox will burn in the bore, so will SPG with BP. The flame front will toast the wrong lube and leave ash and fouling that is too much for the next boolit. The worst problem for a lube is a low flash point. Lube must withstand the short heat duration of the powder.
So why does a hard lube work in rifles? Because none is used, left behind to burn, does not make more fouling and boolits spin fast enough to rid the boolit of all lube at the muzzle. Just maybe, the only fouling is from powder.
I just can't answer this. I can't wrap my head around the "lube pump" stuff because I can't see lube going backwards against gas pressure.
Lube making a seal? Funny! A seal on hydraulic tubes are rubber that expand against steel. All seals are expandable from pressure.
If gas escapes the side of a boolit it will blow lube away, the lube will not stop the pressure.

[Cap'n Morgan]

F.W. Mann in his book "The Bullets Flight From Powder To Target" noticed the "one in five, or two out of ten" flyers more than a hundred years ago. Almost every time an unbalanced boolit is to blame.

[MtGun44]

I think mine are mostly the jerk behind the trigger. ;-)

Are you using magnum primers. I find they can cause fliers with 2400 or Unique.
Try reg primers.

Also if this is a pistol, grip, support and such are super critical.

Bill

[390ish]

I attribute most of my flyers to anxiety.

[geargnasher]

Brad, I tried MML last winter after hearing so much about the final version being tweaked to prevent first shot, cold barrel flyers in cold weather. It really works, but we have about three days a year here in SW Texas that can make it more useful to me than my Felix lube Winter Formula. I don't hunt when it's that cold anyway, fortunately never been that hungry. You might give MML a try, but like the majority of lubes it does fall a bit short in really hot weather, at least the batch I made and shot in my guns. YMMV, but it's good stuff in general.

Carnauba Red never gave me the best accuracy at 1-200 yards unless it was 100 degrees in the shade and the gun was warm. Carnauba Red shines in short range magnum pistol cartridges, especially in rapid-fire situations that get the barrel hot.

Gear

[btroj]

Your findings with CR are similar to mine Gear. It is turning put to be good for handguns, higher velocity rifle, and warmer weather shooting.
I shot only a bit of MML this summer but not enou to really know how it will do for me in the heat. I have high hopes for it in the colder weather. Sure will get a feel this month.

I wish I could say I didn't hunt when it was below 50. I try to stay in when it gets below 15 or so. I might go out but won't stay for too long. I just don't like being cold and I hunt for fun. Freezing my ....... Off isn't fun.

I may just have to bite the bullet and go back to Felix for everything. I liked it as a lube but it left much more crud in the actions of my lever guns that anything else. Sure made my revolvers look dirty fast too. I may just have to get over the cosmetic stuff and use it agin, it is an awesome lube.

[lead chucker]

My Cva 44 is a 1-20 and I use CCI 300 primers. I made Some felix lube tonight and will try it out on thursday

[lead chucker]

I would like to shoot at least 2 inch groups at 50 yards Thats not asking to much out of a 44 rifle with a scope is it??????

[Tatume]

What is the most common cause of flyers iget good groups with my cva 44 but seems like i always get a couple flyers to mess up a good group.

In my opinion there is no such thing as a flyer. The shot is real and representative of what you can expect from the gun/ammo/shooter combination. Such shots should not be discarded.

The purpose of accuracy testing is to answer the question: Where can I expect the next shot to go? If there is some condition that causes one (or two) shot(s) out of five (or whatever) to land outside of the group, then that is characteristic of the gun and is what you can expect when hunting or shooting in competition.

Our job is to determine the capabilities of our guns. We should not discard outliers. The job of gun writers is to sell guns. They discard outliers to make the products look better. These are conflicting requirements.

Take care, Tom

[btroj]

I would like to shoot at least 2 inch groups at 50 yards Thats not asking to much out of a 44 rifle with a scope is it??????

That should not be unrealistic at all. It may take some time and effort.
You may need to seriously look at your bench technique. That alone can make a huge difference.

The gun should, I would hope, be capable of 2 inches at 50 yards. Sounds like the riflling twist is fine for the bullet.
I would look at slugging the barrel to make sure the bullets are big enough or see if someone you know has some bigger slugs. Some guns just want a .431 or .432 bullet.
Trying Felix lube is not a bad idea either. It is a great lube and made properly you will always know it isn't a lube problem.
I would try sorting brass by headstamp, maybe even trim a few so crimp is consistent, and see if that helps.

You have many roads you can go down in your efforts. I would suggest changing only 1 thing at a time. Changing multiple at once makes it so you are never sure which made the difference. Don't be afraid to vary the powder charge, or the powder. Some guns just need a certain load and it is up to us to find that happy place.

Ou are up against the greatest challenge in reloading or casting. Once you find the right load it will give you grew satisfaction. Nothing is better than when you find what works and can smile when you look at the target.

[sundog]

Flyers are real. Too often a shooter will say something like, "called flyer". That is not real, it is a pulled shot. There is no such thing as a called flyer. By definition, a flyer cannot be called.

So, what is a flyer? It is any impact that is called good that does not shoot into the normal group for that load and firearm. That does not include rounds pushed in the wind. If you cannot dope the wind, that does not make a flyer. It means you need to learn to dope the wind. Any round induced by you to go elsewhere, and does, for any reason, is not a flyer.

My guess is that most true flyers with cast boolits are caused by one of two conditions, or both; bad base or internal voids. That is, of course, if all other conditions are good -- equipment, load, and shooter. I believe that loob purging is real also, and it can also be a culprit.

Here is an observation. I have been shooting military bolt matches since the mid 90's, about 15 years, almost exclusively with cast. Total record rounds now handily exceeds 6K. When I carefully cull match boolits by sight and weight, flyers are nonexistent. If I visually cull only, I can expect and do get flyers.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' too it.

[lead chucker]

I made some seaco green and cut the parifin by half and shot four five shot strings working up .5 gr at a time with 2400. Each string first shot out of cold barrell was 6 inch highTo day I will try the felix lube i made last night. I have a good geeling about this lube. All my bullets are within a grain of each other and i have all the same head stamp brass and its all trimed to the same lenth. Bullets are loaded right to the lands. I hope this works. Last year I shot a deer with my 77/44 ruger with a 255 gr cast bullet. You get great satisfaction when you do that with a buch of lead and wax and it works . I will never buy factory amo.

[Larry Gibson]

sundog is correct; There is no such thing as a called flyer. By definition, a flyer cannot be called. There is a difference between a called shot and a flyer. The called shot is shooter induced, the flyer is rifle, ammunition or ballistically induced.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

My Cva 44 is a 1-20 and I use CCI 300 primers. I made Some felix lube tonight and will try it out on thursday
That is GOOD, but you might need to slow down the boolit. The longer barrel might be over spinning the boolit.
Slow twists can't reach spin, the right twist can but don't push for more. You should find a sweet spot. There is just no need to shoot the .44 too fast and with the 1 to 20" rate, you are free to use even heavier boolits.
I bet about 1350 fps over the chrono will be about right.

[Iron Mike Golf]

I agree with Sundog and Larry. I think a lot of the discussion about group sizes and accuracy and fliers and outliers is due to the way we quantify group size. The way most folks on the boards (and in the magazines) measure it is like using only extreme spread and ignoring standard deviation when evaluating chrony data for consistent velocity.

[303Guy]

I would like to shoot at least 2 inch groups at 50 yards Thats not asking to much out of a 44 rifle with a scope is it??????I recon if a Rossie 357 carbine can shoot bug hole groups at 110yds with open sights and plain based boolits cast from a dinged aluminum mold and using alox lube, then a 44mag can do the same. It wasn't a hot load but it wasn't light either.

[sundog]

I have another thought on this. Felix and I have discussed this subject more than once during our visits. Our collective thought (mostly Felix--he's the brains of the outfit) is that if we had a spinner we could reduce flyers to zero. Unfortunately, we do not (have a spinner). We could also induce flyers by taking those bad boolits that visually look good, but do not pass the spin test, and shoot them. Theoretically, called good shots with those bad boolits would all be flyers. It would be a neat experiment. You would at least expect that the group it would make would be more scattered than normal with good boolits.

The short of it is, if you have good equipment, good load, and you are having a good day, consistency is your best friend. If you are not having a good day, all else being equal, the first place to check is the nut behind the butt plate.

[Iron Mike Golf]

...if we had a spinner we could reduce flyers to zero. Unfortunately, we do not (have a spinner)...If you are not having a good day, all else being equal, the first place to check is the nut behind the butt plate.

That notion occurred to me while reading a recent RPM threshold thread.

Concur with the last sentence, too.

[runfiverun]

you should be able to do 2" groups at 100 yds, thats 5 shots practically touching with a 44.
your lubes viscosity WILL make a difference, unfortunately soft lubes aren't in the winter or are too soft in the summer.
changing the viscosity for temperature matching will help.

one other thing...... grease and other lubes will seal pressure i see and use them everyday.
not up to the pressures we use them at in rifles etc.
but to seal off cables in open and live petroleum producing wells, and to seal valves used under pressure in the 15-20k range on a constant basis.
you bet i use some of this valve lube in my boolit lubes.
these lubes are rated from -20* or another one for -50* and their top end temps vary from 250 to 400*.
the greases used to seal off the cables also come in summer and winter blends.
i still find it quite fascinating that a thin ring of grease is the only thing between an open pressurized well and the world.