Help, crud on my boolits

[Timb1]

I have a couple hundred pounds of lead from work. It came in the form of lead hammers and vise jaws. I smelted them into one lb ingot some time ago and I just tried cast some boo lits out of them. I am not sure what the mix is but it was around 15bhn on my Lee tester so I thought I have some good stuff here. It melted around 650 degrees and I started casting some boolit when it got 800 or so. The boolits looked good but some come out with crud on them in different places so I do not think it is not the mold which is a Lee .429 200gr. I have stirred and fluxed the pot a couple times and it looks good and clean. The "crud" for lack of a better term looks rough spots on the surface. What am I doing wrong to cause this and how can I cure this? BTW would anyone have an idea what lead hammers and vise jaws are made of?

Thanks Tim.

[44man]

Only God knows what was cast for those things! The metal could have anything in it, zinc, pewter, you name it. If it would make a good hammer, who would care?

[madcaster]

Maybe you needed to clean the melt more thouroughly,or possibly the mould was not hot enough,try some variances on your casting techniques.

[OLPDon]

My guess and just a guess perhaps when you added ignots to replenish the pot those ignots had some form of contamination. On the orginial smelting of lead hammers ect. There might have been some things in the ingots still in there. Smelting lead mix is just as important as casting tecnique if not more so. Just as in computers "garbage in garbage out":killingpc . Just a thought if you are sure your orginal smelting was done well and fluxing was done well. Perhaps if you lubed the sprue plate some of the lube migrated to the moulds this could cause shadows and the rough spots. However you did say that it appeared in different spot so that might rule sprue lube migration out.
I would suspect contamination in some of the ignots.
Don

[Timb1]

Don, I thought I done a good job smelting, I let the lead get good and hot stirred and fluxed and stirred and fluxed again until I was not getting anymore trash. Is there anything else I should do?

[OLPDon]

Wow Aside waiting for more reply's with those in the know. I am at loss.
I will check some of the book's on casting and see if there is listed any cause and effect. I am sure someone here has had a similar problem and will have the answer for ya. The members on Cast Boolits have perhaps more combined knowledge then one could read in a life time.
Don

[OLPDon]

Timb1
If you are using bottom pour pot does the nozzle have a case of the drips. If so there might be crud on the side of the pot walls, and they have a way of finding there way to the nozzle.
Check the Weight of the boolits. That info will help to deturmine possibles causes.
Don

[Timb1]

Don, I am using a bottom pour Lee and I have have been thinking about cleaning it. How clean should a pot be or stay?

Thanks Tim

[OLPDon]

Timb1:
I have 2 RCBS Pros one for soft lead the other for Hard Mix.
I keep a eye on the sides as it runs down if it looks like crud has built up while casting. I new put new ignots in I then flux and use wooden dowle scrap sides with it I also use a spoon well cleaned and rub side walls and remove crude build up flux and remove dross. I might note that I keep kitty litter floating on top of lead (clay type). When I am finished casting I make sure pot is full and ready to go for next casting session. Seem to work for me. Keep us informed on your progress.
Don

[Treeman]

Tim, you said that the "crud" looks like rough spots on the surface. Have you scraped those places and determined that any crud is actually there. I'm envisioning some localized frosting of the bullets surface. That would be caused by high temps and the way antimony bearing lead alloys crystalize......and would be totally unimportant in regard to the bullets' usefulness.

[fourarmed]

I've had this problem, too. I think it is caused by crud, but I have not succeeded in eliminating it 100%. Lots of fluxing and stirring and scraping helps, especially near the bottom of the pot. If it's really bad, I would dump the pot and clean it with sandpaper. Get it right down to the metal.

[chunkum]

fourarmed had it exactly right. Empty your pot and clean it thouroughly as he suggested. Then don't use it for smelting anymore. lol That's where those little heavier than lead granules come from. You should be good to go now.
Best regards,
chunkum

[OLPDon]

Ditto on the above eliminate the basic's is the simple starting point. Good advice Fourarmed.
Don

[bigborefan]

I too have been having trouble lately similar to what is described by Tim. In my case, my bullets appear on one side to have a white film that wipes off using a cloth and using it in a vigorous matter. The bullet appearance after wiping this film off looks normal except for a few minor surface inclusions that according to "The Art of Bullet Casting" are either dross in the alloy or trapped gas by its appearance. The bullets that I am casting lately are big 45 cal 500 gr + ones. I use Marvelux for fluxing and repeated fluxing does not help. Neither does upping my pot temperature. I'm beginng to think it may have something to do with using Marvelux. I may be using to much of it for each fluxing. Tim, what are you using for fluxing?

[OLPDon]

I have used Marvelux in the past and don't like it if you use too much does more harm then good. While smelting in cast Iron Pot Rust and Crud built up on sides of Pot.
Don

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

I'm wondering if perhaps there isn't some zinc in your mix. Have you tried heating the ingots you made from the hammers up to around 625-650 and see if anything odd floats to the surface after fluxing? I've read on here where one fella was able to rescue a batch of zinc contaminated wheel weight that way.

Regards,

Dave

[fourarmed]

Bigborefan, is it possible that you are not getting perfect fillout on that "white" looking side? Sometimes you get boolits that are frosty only in spots. If you rub them vigorously, it smooths them enough that they lose the frosty appearance.

[bigborefan]

Fourarmed, I think it has something to do with my fluxing. At first I thought it might be the alloy but I get it with straight Linotype also but not as bad. I know what frosted bullets look like and these aren't frosted. They get that way with casting temperatures of 650 even. I never had this problem before and I've been casting for 30 years. I just cleaned my RCBS pot out good but will wait til I can get a fresh batch of pure lead to mix with some tin and try that out. I took a picture below of one of my bullets. It's not very good but you can see the tiny surface inclusions that I spoke of.
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/SSCamaro427/Powder008.jpg

[leftiye]

I second both the posts on crud in the bottom of the pot, and on the problem maybe being zinc. I had a large batch of alloy (for me anyway) once that I threw out because it wouldn't cast no matter what I did to flux it or clean the pot, etc. I'm sorry to say it this way, but what you've been reporting, and the pics look just like that.

In the excellence of hindsight, I've since then suspected a contaminant in that lead, and also that the pot needed scraping. Some here like Marvelux, but I think my problem related to the marvelux taking crud, and fixing it to the pot. Clean your pot. Then get some lead that you know is good and try the same molds with the good alloy.

[leftiye]

Have you tried a mold prep on your molds? Graphite works best. I like Nei mold prep. Put it on with a q-tip, one light coat, and never look back.

[bigborefan]

The strange part is that none of the sprue knockoffs or ingots that I used to drain the pot show this same condition on them. After reading your post leftiye, I went down to check and I do have a bottle of NEI mold prep. I'll use it the next time I cast which will be after I get a fresh batch of lead. I was hoping Tim would chime in if my bullets look anywhere near like his.

[OLPDon]

I have been using Drop Out Mould Prep. I spray it on the mould and then burnish it with a wooden stick ( see if the wife) has one of the wooden stick for her nails, also the BAR B Q skews work well also and just shape it to your needs. Boolits fall out nicely and if there is a little imperfection in the mould it helps.
Don

[44man]

That doesn't look like zinc! If it was, the boolit would look like a raingutter. I don't see any crud in the holes either. That is a strange one for sure and that lead must have something in it that is no good. Almost like it is bubbling away from the mold surface.

[PAT303]

I had the same problem last year.My bullets were the same in every way and no amount of fluxing would fix it so I cut it 50/50 with pure lead and it worked.I think it is to much tin in the melt and diluting it with lead worked. Don't haul me over the coals saying the tin should have mixed in,I'm just saying what happened Pat

[leftiye]

Tin will only alloy to 10% in a true alloy, I've heard.

[ktw]

I'll throw my half baked theory into the fray:

I was getting this with some of my larger castings (large for me is 300-350 gr) using a bottom pour pot. The rough spots on one side of the nose kind of looked like what you get during smelting when you pour a ladle full back into the smelting pot from a height; lead well mixed with air, or lead oxide. You also read the anecodotes here from time to time about how ladle casters claim to get cleaner castings and fewer rejects than bottom pour casters.

So, not having a ladle, I decided to eliminate air as much as possible from the mold filling process by trying to emulating the ladle casting technique with my bottom pour pot. Lately when using the larger cavity molds I have been force feeding them by placing the sprue hole tight up against the bottom pour spout for as long as it takes to fill, plus a little longer. I have found that pretty much eliminated the rough spot on the side of the nose, gave me better fill-out and fewer rejects.

Works for me with boolits 300gr and up in a couple of different Lee and Lyman molds. Doesn't seem to make any difference with the smaller slugs.

-ktw

[arkypete]

Here's another suggestion.
Prior to fluxing I take an old butter knife, it's the Salvation Army pattern, and scape the sides of the pot and the bottom. I amazed at the junk that pops up.
Then I flux and get even more.
I use wooden matches for burnishing the mold.
Jim

[sagamore-one]

Hey Tim,
In my humble opinion..Looks like contaminated alloy, probably Zink. As a last ditch measure...heat alloy up to max in your pot. Alternate fluxing with parrafin (candle wax) ,bees wax (alox/beeswax lube),and Marvelux. It may take several cycles. Use plenty of each the parrafin and beeswax, go easy on the Marvelux. Stir well .Skim and discard anything that comes up. Be cautious of fire hazard when fluxing. I find bees wax best for most fluxing. If contamination is not too severe, you can most likely salvage this alloy. If not... buy a hammer mold.
Dennis

[Timb1]

Bigborefan, thanks for the picture. This is what I am fighting with. I don't believe that it is zinc because some of the boolits come out OK and I don't see anything unusual as the lead melts. My pot is not perfectly clean so that could be the problem, and I am going to clean it to find out, but I didn't think it was that dirty. I have not used Marvelux for some time, I have been flux this pot full with an old candle. I thought it may be some kind of gas, but the closer I have the mold to the bottom of the pot the better the boolit looks. One other thing I have scraped these spots and cut in to them with a sharp knife and I and have not noticed anything crud in them, but the contamination maybe so small that I am missing it. Everyone thanks for the ideas when I get my pot clean I will let you know the out come.

Tim.

[fourarmed]

That's an excellent photo of the problem. I get the same thing, but usually it isn't too bad, and doesn't affect a high fraction of the bullets, so I just cull the worst ones. I am pretty stingy with the tin, but when I add some to the WW it seems to help.

[44man]

I don't think it is dirt! I just thought of one other thing though. Maybe the bottom spout is partially crudded up and the flow is poor. Thats why I use a ladle because that bottom spout is really hard to clean and keep clean.
I dump my pots often to change alloy and it is hard to believe how much black dusty crap is under the lead. It doesn't float to the surface and can get in the spout. I don't know what the stuff is.

[44man]

Why hasn't anyone made a pot with the spout coming out the side to take lead from just above the bottom? A sump could be built in the bottom of a pot too.

[bigborefan]

I'd settle for a spout on a bottom pour that can be removed for cleaning either by a set screw or a spout that screws on. I did notice that my RCBS drips consistantly anymore where it never used to. I cleaned it out really good and opened the pour spout slightly using a little larger drill. I'll test it with a new batch of lead this weekend I hope.

[leftiye]

Big bore, it seems that it might be possible to bore out the nozzle, and put in a sleeve to make removal possible for cleaning. (If you want to risk having to replace the pot if it were ruined in the process, that is) The sleeve would probably stick when the lead cooled, and some provision for breaking it loose would seem to be a good idea.

[leftiye]

44, Or you could extend the top end of the spout upwards 1/2" or more above the bottom of the pot with an insert as described above. Just machine the bottom of the pot flat and parallel on both sides, bore it out as desired, and insert a threaded hollow replacement opening/ nozzle (fasten in place with locknut) that sitcks up the desired amount.

[Springfield]

LEE bottom pour spouts DO unscrew and are replacable. Also, seems to me that if you suspect zinc contamination you should heat the pot until the leads melts but not much more and the higher melting temp zinc would come to the top and can be removed. If you heat your pot to the max it just melts and alloys in again. Works for me when doing wheelweights, the zinc one float to the top. Also, I NEVER smelt and pour bullets from the same pot, too much crud stays behind. I would suspect zinc in the mix too from the look, but I have never had bullets do that so I can't speak with any authority.

[Timb1]

44man, I did notice that the stream of lead did not come centered form the spout, it was off to one side a little like it was blocked a little. Why would that cause a problem like this? I had thought about when I cleaned the pot to try a little bullplate on it to see if it would stay cleaner but I did not if this was a good idea or how long it would last.

Tim.

[44man]

I think anything that messes up the flow will affect the boolit. I have tried thousands of times to get consistant boolits from the bottom pour and sometimes I did but after so many boolits, it would go haywire again. I just flat gave up messing with it. It is so hard to keep clean I can cast a huge pile of perfect boolits in the time it takes to work on that spout.
Now the idea of extending the inside of the spout sounds good. You would have to get a perfect fit to the rod so it doesn't leak. That has merit!

[KCSO]

I have some commercial Vita Flux that is used for fluxing large quantities of type material. I don't know if you can still get this stuff but it will take all the crud out of your lead, if it is really lead. If you only need to do a hundred punds or so I could send you part of a stick. Or you might try a search and see if it is still available.

[Bass Ackward]

Crud in the pot? Crap in the mold?

Dang this is scarry. I have never seen anything like this, so I can't suggest anything.

But my pot was made in 1982. I haven't seen the bottom since. I do smelt in another pot too. I also flux the be-geezers out of my stuff.

So I can't be much help. Hope I never get that either.

[GLL]

Get a clean pan and melt some of your alloy. Try casting a few in the same mould using a ladle and see if you get the same results. If so it is the alloy. If not it is the Lee pot. Maybe ! ;) ;)

Jerry

[bigborefan]

KCSO, I checked and Midway has it for $21. I think I'll order some. Does it smoke bad or is it like Marvelux with minimal smoking?

[454PB]

I use a dental pick to keep the spout clear on my Lee pots. My method is to hold the sprue plate about a half inch below the nozzle, which allows me to see if the flow is restricted. If it seems to be slowing, I run the pick into the spout while the pour lever is held open. It's very obvious when the blockage flows out. This process usually puts 500 to 1000 grains of alloy on the aluminum plate at the bottom, which is then returned to the pot.

I've heard the use of Marvelux blamed for pot contamination before, but I've been using it for years with no problem, at least no more problems than experienced when using carbon based fluxes.

[KCSO]

Big bore fan

I'ts har for me to tell cause i have so far used it outdoors with big pots and my first flux is with old motor oil. Guessing by the smoke it is no worse than bullet lube.

[bigborefan]

KCSO, Thanks. I only asked because I do all bullet casting down in my basement and that's why I use Marvelux. My wife hates it when I use bullet lube or apafin for fluxing. She says I make the whole upstairs smell for days after.

[Timb1]

I stayed home yesterday due to the weather here in southern Ohio, so that gave me plenty of time to clean the pot out. I took it a part and scrubbed it, pull the spout out and it was plugged pretty good too. With a torch and a few drill bits I got the spout cleaned out. Then with a stainless brush and scotchbrite I had the old pot looking as clean new. I just new I had my problem whipped with the shape the spout was in, but I was wrong as usual. I still have the same problem. So it must be some thing in the lead. I tried adding enough 95/5 solder to bring the tin content up 2% and flux again, seemed like I got some more trash out off the lead and the boolits did look better but I could still some of the same crud. KCSO I would like to try a sample of Vita Flux before ordering it from Midway.

Thanks Tim.

[fourarmed]

Is this happening with just one mold, or with all of them?

[Timb1]

Fourarmed, it is happening with all of them.

[R.M.]

I've ben following this thread from the start, but excuse me if I did miss some posts.
I've seen the condition you show in the photos before, but this might not be the same. I bought my first Lee 6-banger not long ago, and decided to clean it as suggested, instead of how I normally do it. So I take it apart and start boiling it in soapy water. Well the suds starts boiling over, so I get the brilliant idea to use dishwasher soap instead, it doesn't get foamy. WRONG, that stuff ate away, or deposited crud on the mold. I tried cleaning it, but no luck. The bullets that I cast from it had your look to it. I ended up lapping the mold a bit to get rid of the worst of it. The mold is useable now, but the bullets aren't as pretty as they could have been.

Something to think about.
R.M.

[Paul B]

I clean my pot on a regular basis and I still get bullets that look like the ones in question. As long as they shoot OK, I'm not going to get too up tight about it. I do notice that it seems to happen on the larger diameter bullets from about .358 caliber on up. Why that happens, I haven't a clue. maybe minute contaminates that have the same density and weight as lead and so don't float to the top?

FWIW, an easy way to clean the pot is to drain all the lead out, and using gloves of course, overturn it so that the little lead that stays in the pot is also removed.
Let the pot cool down and fill it with water. Turn the pot back on and with a low setting (just high enough to get the water boiling) let the mess simmer for about 5 minutes while using a wire brush (looks like a tooth brush with wire bristles) scrub the sides of the pot thoroughly. After the pot has been cleaned and drained, you can remove the parts that work the drain and use a cup shaped wire brush on an electric drill to clean the bottom of the pot. Does a right nice job cleaning the pot with a minimum of labor.
Paul B.