How Hard??

[threett1]

I was playing with Veral's hardness tester a bit today and got some really high numbers with some water quenched WWs semiwadcutters I had. Also tested some known pure lead and got reasonable readings. First time with this so I know I'm no expert. How hard have some of you guys read from your testers?:castmine:

[454PB]

I've seen quenched WW's hit 30 BHN after a few weeks.

[Uncle Grinch]

My WW boolits, with just a wee bit of lino added (10 - 1 ) run a 22 BHN when water quenched. Haven't tried air cooled yet. I water drop everything.

[Shuz]

In my experience, water quenched ww's reach Bhn 22 in a day or two after casting. Over time they still test Saeco 10(Bhn 22). I have had "richer" antimonial or perhaps bismuth enriched alloys, test at Saeco 11(Bhn 27-28) after quenching and waiting a few days. For my .44 mag handgun loads, I try to maintain a hardness between Bhn 9 to 14. Again, in my experience, that is obtained from ww+1% tin and air cooled, not quenched.--Shuz

[Char-Gar]

This hard/water droped stuff is way, way over done in sixgun loads. There is no sixgun bullets that needs to be that hard. You can use them in full snort top end magnum loads, but drop the pressure from the top end, and they start to be a problem.

More leading comes from bullets that are too hard, than bullets that too soft.

IMHO Bhn 15 is as hard as anybody needs to go with magnum loads. Non-magnum loads are better served with bulletrs in the 9-11 Bhn range.

[Navahojoe]

+1 for Chargar and Shuz. I completely agree. I air cool my alloy mix for the .44 mag and .45 Colt, BHN of about 9 to 14, no leading.

regards,
NavahoJoe


:castmine: so I can :Fire:

[Springfield]

My lead and tin mix, air cooled, test out at 9 Brinnell on my LBT. Works fine for both Blackpowder and my wifes smokeless Cowboy loads. Also my 45-70 BP loads. No point in overhardening them.

[John Boy]

Empirical Formula:
3 x 480 x BHN = Estimate of the minimum peak pressure required for bullet obturation.
Look up the psi of the caliber you are shooting from loading tables and then work the formula to determine what Bhn to cast at.

Example:
Loading table (caliber: powder type - bullet weight - charge - barrel length) ... equals PSI of 28,000
28,000 divided by 3 x 480 (1440)
Minimum Bhn = 19.4

For folks shooting black powder, loading table data details is scarce. That's why we are always fiddling with recipes [smilie=b:

[threett1]

Thanks for the replies, Guys. The high numbers I was refering to were in the 40 range. Had some 25s, pure lead at 7-8. I know the high numbers have to be bogus, but just wondered if any of the rest had got anything like that.:castmine:

[cbrick]

threett1,

Interesting. I have never seen 40 BHN cast bullets but then I have never heat treated mono or foundry type. I'd say there is error in the testing somewhere.

You might find this article interesting, there are also links to other alloy articles on this page.

http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm

Rick

[threett1]

Good info. Thanks for the link.

[44man]

I had to get my tester out and check some boolits and found something strange. I first checked a bunch made from water dropped WW metal with the tin raised to 2% and they checked out at 19. I then checked water dropped WW metal that has tin and antimony added and they are SOFTER at 18. Now I am getting confused! I knew what my alloy was but never checked one against the other before. Mine has always been 18 to 20 and I didn't expect WW metal to be as hard. I hardly ever use the straight stuff because I shoot mostly hot hunting loads. When I plink with lighter loads I just use WW's and don't bother checking hardness.
Another thing I don't understand is when I shoot my alloy with my gas checked boolit, they are very accurate but if I use straight WW metal, they don't shoot good unless I anneal the checks. Only then will they match the accuracy. Now that doesn't make sense because they are the same hardness.
Are we going to have to add another equation to casting where the alloy itself is as important for accuracy as size and hardness?
Just lost another hair, darn it.

[cbrick]

I first checked a bunch made from water dropped WW metal with the tin raised to 2% and they checked out at 19. I then checked water dropped WW metal that has tin and antimony added and they are SOFTER at 18.

What did you use to raise the antimony percentage?

How old are these bullets? Are they both the same age?

Rick

[Bass Ackward]

Are we going to have to add another equation to casting where the alloy itself is as important for accuracy as size and hardness?
Just lost another hair, darn it.


You are going to see the entire gambit from 14 to 35 eventually. I have seen bullets from 22 to 28 BHN from the same batch and casting scession, which is why I oven HT if it is necessary. I can give you my tendencies.

1. Smaller bullets cool faster in the water and get harder than big bullets.
2. Temperature affects everything. Temperature when you cast, temperature of the mix, temperature of the mold, how fast you drop. I get harder bullets from sumetime molding than winter.

Number 2 is the biggie and will show you strange things.

If you HT where you remove all the temperature variables, these things stabilize. But number 1 is still true. I can HT 30s and 45s together and have 10 BHN difference.

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree with bass there. I dont water drop anything anymore. Theres just to many variables. Bullets that vary that much in hardness will never be as accurate as consistant bullets. I do my hardening by alloying. I guess someday when the lineotype drys up completely im going to have to take up oven treating bullets. Now another problem ive had with heat treated bullets is failure. Now keep in mind im talking handgun velocitys and not rifle. Ive allways heard that pure lynotype bullets will fracture on impact and that is pure hog wash. Ive penetration tested them in just about every handgun caliber at velocitys as high as 1500fps and have never seen on fracture. Heat treated bullets are another thing. Ive heard people claim that heat treated bullets are less likely to fracture then lineotype bullets. More hogwash. The only bullets ive seen fracture in testing were heat treated bullets and it isnt just my bullets. While at a linebaugh seminar a few years ago there was a rash of swcs loosing there noses in testing and it was found out that they all came from the same manufacture and he water dropped. It quieted a few of the doubters as on the first day i was asked to give a little talk on casting handgun bullets and my major topic was how i detested wd bullets. I got jumped on by a few believers in the crowd but there were two comercial bullet casters there one who water drops and one who doesnt and they both came to my defense. The one that water drops admitted the only reason he does it is to keep the bullets comming out of the automatic machines for being damaged falling into a box. He said for the most part his customers are more intersted in how his product arrives at there house then they are as to how it shoots or performs.

[44man]

Cbrick, I buy antimony chunks from Bill Ferguson, also his flux. It only takes 600 degrees to alloy with the flux.
My mix is 20# of WW, 6.4 oz of tin and 9.6 oz of antimony. This seems to be very accurate with no leading at the velocities I like. Bill gave me the formula.
The boolits are both a month old.
It seems as if WW's here are softer then what some of you get.
I water drop for convenience, not for any special reason other then that. My bench room is limited and I have to keep moving air cooled boolits around or sticking them in boxes as I cast. I cast in my garage in between a grinder, a big vise and my drill press. I have about a 12" by 12" spot to drop boolits.
I have shot through 16" box elder trees with my 45-70 revolver and I think I got through one 18" but I didn't measure the tree. Boolits only show wood wear.
I hate them trees, we get box elder bugs all over the house and barns and I kill them all winter in my basement. They are of the maple family but are soft. They have seeds like a maple, don't live long and are always dropping dead stuff. They grow like weeds. If they die and stay standing, the wood turns to punk, can't even burn it then.

[MT Gianni]

44 man, There is an injection that you can do on a Box Elder tree that kills the seed. It has to be done when the leaves start to be produced and it stops the seed from developing. Box Elder bugs can only live on seed so they don't come back. It cost about $1 per foot of tree height and only the female trees need to be done but you have to do all in the area. Any nursery or tree trimming business hould have this stuff but I don't recall the name. It is injected between the bark and the inner bark lining. You can also make a control line around your buildings from Aug to freeze up by soaking chewing tobacco in a gallon jug, or spitting in it if you chew, and spraying that in a 3' wide line around where ever you don't want them. Tobacco kills them dead and they won't cross it. Gianni.

[45 2.1]

Are we going to have to add another equation to casting where the alloy itself is as important for accuracy as size and hardness?

It has been there for a very long time, the only problem is getting everyone to rediscover it again. One alloy doesn't handle everything.

[Sundogg1911]

i don't water drop for the same reason as Lloyd. I've also done some testing with straight Lino. They dont shatter, but they were all over the place. I think they don't expand well like the softer alloys and so barrel fit becomes an issue. Some friends of mine that shoot cast seem to think the harder the better, but I no longer believe that to be the case. consistency in weight is the key to consistant accuracy. At least in my humble opinion.

[felix]

Same ol' story: It's not how hard it is, it is how you make it hard. Keeping the lead hot enough to not congeal at the wrong time is the key to accurate boolits. Cannot have misplaced air bubbles in the mix within the mold. Usually the hottest melting alloy will shoot the best for this reason. Keeps the mold hot, hot, hot. ... felix

[44man]

I will have to look for that stuff. Only question I have is how to determine the tree's sex, do I lift the skirt and look?

[threett1]

:bigsmyl2: :holysheep Naughty guy.

[Lloyd Smale]

thats just the opposite of what ive experienced . Ususally the best accuracy i get out of my handguns is with lyno or 5050 ww/lyno. All of my guns are to correct tolarances though so a properly sized bullet doesnt need to bump up into anything. If you want consistant weights usually the eaisest way to get them is with a tin rich mixture. ie lynotype. Ive heard people tell me that lynotype is to hard for handgun velocities and that you cant get it to shoot accurately in there gun but when i ask them how it shoots jacketed they smile and tell me it drives nails. Now last i heard copper is harder then any lead. I think its just that when you use harder lead you need to be more critical with the size of your bullets. I guess its fruitless to argue about alloys and which is the most accurate. Just like every gun has a certain load it likes best and alot of thing come into play to get it. powder, powder charge weight, primer, crimp, bullet design, bullet size, bullet alloy, bullet quality, lube quality, all have a big part in it change one and it can completely change the way a gun shoots and like was said earlier one of the most overlooked is alloy. Most people cast out of whats in there pot or what worked good in another gun of that caliber and never experiment with alloys much. Its probably the one variable that takes the most work to change.
i don't water drop for the same reason as Lloyd. I've also done some testing with straight Lino. They dont shatter, but they were all over the place. I think they don't expand well like the softer alloys and so barrel fit becomes an issue. Some friends of mine that shoot cast seem to think the harder the better, but I no longer believe that to be the case. consistency in weight is the key to consistant accuracy. At least in my humble opinion.

[cbrick]

I've also done some testing with straight Lino. They dont shatter, but they were all over the place.

Some friends of mine that shoot cast seem to think the harder the better, but I no longer believe that to be the case.

consistency in weight is the key to consistant accuracy. At least in my humble opinion.

They do shatter on steel targets. Several years ago I shot a lot of lino in silhouette and left many a ram standing with good hits on them. Haven't left a ram since I quit using lino on steel.

When I first started casting & heat treating I thought "the harder the better" also until I actually tested them for accuracy and velocity and found out it tain't so. Bullet fit is more important and I wasn't getting any leading but the correct and consistent hardness is very important to accuracy.

In long range handgun accuracy weight consistency is important but so is BHN consistency. Been there, done that. Vary the BHN within a 5 shot group and you'll shoot patterns, not groups.

Rick

[cohutt]

I will have to look for that stuff. Only question I have is how to determine the tree's sex, do I lift the skirt and look?

dunno but here is some bug management infor....
http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PDF/PESTNOTES/pnboxelderbug.pdf

[jhalcott]

I don't use lino in revolvers or SOME pistols,BUT at 2000 fps lino bullets almost disentigrate .The same bullets molded from Lyman #2 alloy leave a larger piece after penetrating 19 inches of wet paper. What ever you call it" shatter" or "fracture", it still means problems.