Compression die

[43spanish]

I read that when loading black powder in a cartridge case, a compression die must be used to compress the wad over the powder before seating the bullet. Is this necessary? If so, is the bullet seating die used as the compression die? Thank you.

[Garys007]

You don't have to use a compression die, but typically you don't want to use the bullet to compress the powder because you can deform the soft lead bullet that way. If you are using a small amount of compression, I guess you could use the bullet to compress.

So, I use a bullet seating die with a compression plug (instead of the bullet seating insert) that compresses the powder and then I hand seat my bullet.

You can get a compression plug from Track of the Wolf, Buffalo Arms or Midway. I'm sure there are other places as well.

[oldracer]

As noted, trying to compress the powder will cause the ogive of the cast bullet to deform and in all probability will change the way it sits in the chamber adversely affecting accuracy. This is what happened to me when I tried it so I made a powder compressor from the insert of an expander die that I ground the rounded end to 90 degree flat that removed the rounded edges. It was part of an extra set of 45-70 dies that I have.

As for the amount of compression, it can be easily adjusted and I used the adjustment when working up my loads as follows. First I filled a case with crushable foam and set in a sized bullet. I seated the case and bullet and the nose of the bullet lightly touched the rifling. When I pulled it out I measured the overall length and used that to then figure out how much to compress the powder charge. I finally settled on 68 grains of Goex FFG and use a wad cut from milk cartons so the amount of compression gives me the right amount to seat the bullet so it is .001 to .002 off the lands. I measured the compression and it is right about 0.322 inch which seems high but works well in both my rolling block and Sharps.

[43spanish]

Thank you. I was looking in Natchez for anything about compression die and found nothing. I have a .444 Marlin die set...maybe I can use that for the compression die.

[43spanish]

I just heard another suggestion: cut a wooden dowel to proper length between wad and die, and use that to compress powder. Don't have to use different die.

[JSnover]

There are lots of ways to skin that cat. There are also some talented members here who will make a compresson or expansion plug to your spec, if you want.

[Don McDowell]

A lyman M die or the expander die from an RCBS legacy die set can also double as a compression die.

[oldracer]

If you use an expander die for the compression, be sure to check that the outer edge is not rounded as Doug Knoell told me that will result in the top of the powder being slightly concave and the bullet will not seat firmly against the wad/powder. The RCBS die I had from my extra set was in fact rounded so it would slide into the case easier and I had to ground that part off so the edge was sharper. I have to be very careful when compressing the powder now as it is very easy to crush a case mouth.

[13Echo]

Go to the Buffalo Arms site and look up compession dies or give them a call. First rate people.

Another possibility is to cast the bullet you are using out of linotype and use that with the seater to compres the powder. It will be strong enough not to deform.

I prefer the compression die.

Jerry Liles

[shovel80]

I use a compression plug bought from Buffalo arms..I also bought a Lyman "m" die body from Buffalo arms to use the compression plug with!..

Terry

[mazo kid]

I made my compression die from an old die I had and turning a bolt head (of proper thread size, depending on your die) to just under the inside neck diameter of the cartridge.

[43spanish]

I made my compression die from an old die I had and turning a bolt head (of proper thread size, depending on your die) to just under the inside neck diameter of the cartridge.

What do you mean by 'turning a bolt head'? I wonder if I could find a flathead screw with a round head to screw into my .444 Marlin die.

[Don McDowell]

You could probably do that, but it'ld be a mild steel bolt instead of a screw. You need to make sure the 43 case will go in the 444 die before you go to all that trouble first tho.

[Stampede]

I made my own compression plugs from some old (discarded) dies. I forced a stainless steel rod in the dies and turned them down to the correct diameter. On one I did some micro welding, but this was not necessary after all. To make it look nice I sand blast them and chemicaly polish them

Now I make these home made compressions plug for many black powder enthusiasts at my gun club. We can’t buy compression plugs over here (the Netherlands), we can order them in the US. But with the shipment and customs fees the dies end up to cost around $ 80.–. I produce them for less than $ 6.–

We use them to compress the powder, seat the wads and the grease cookies (when needed).

Peter (Stampede)

[43spanish]

I made my own compression plugs from some old (discarded) dies. I forced a stainless steel rod in the dies and turned them down to the correct diameter. On one I did some micro welding, but this was not necessary after all. To make it look nice I sand blast them and chemicaly polish them

Now I make these home made compressions plug for many black powder enthusiasts at my gun club. We can’t buy compression plugs over here (the Netherlands), we can order them in the US. But with the shipment and customs fees the dies end up to cost around $ 80.–. I produce them for less than $ 6.–

We use them to compress the powder, seat the wads and the grease cookies (when needed).

Peter (Stampede)

Very nice workmanship. Too bad you're so far from the US...but nice that you're so near my ancestral Finland.

[montana_charlie]

If your dies are Lyman or RCBS, the expander plug has a 9/16 x 18 thread.
Buy a 3 inch bolt with that thread, cut off the head, turn down one end to fit inside the case mouth.

One way to turn the end down, if you don't have a lathe, is this ...

Chuck the bolt in a variable speed reversible half-inch drill.
Lay the end of the bolt flat on the tool rest of a bench grinder, with the side of the bolt parallel to the face of the stone.

Note - For a right-hander, use the stone on the right, and run the drill in reverse.
A lefty would do the opposite.

Grip the tool rest with your left thumb and forefinger so that the bolt rests against your thumbnail ... and almost touching the stone.

With the drill running slowly in reverse (so the bolts stays against your thumbnail) rock your thumb forward to cause the turning bolt to make light contact with the spinning stone.

Keep the bolt moving back and forth lateraly, across the face of the stone, to machine a sufficient length of the bolt end for your purposes.

As the bolt loses contact with the stone, roll your thumb forward a little more.

Measure frequently until you get the diameter you want.

CM

[43spanish]

Mine is a Lee.

[montana_charlie]

Mine is a Lee.
Ah! Then you need to browse over to Track of the Wolf.
They carry compression slugs for Lee expander dies.

I started out using Lee dies, and they do all jobs satisfactorily.
But, I was not satisfied with how the compression slug was incorporated, so I changed to Lyman dies.

Basically, the plug is loose within the die, and the 'powder thru' top on the die doesn't allow for much range in adjusting the depth of powder compression.
Actually, before I changed dies I began using the threaded stem from the bullet seating die to hold the compression plug in.

CM

[43spanish]

I think I shall try to find a hardened bolt with same thread as my Lee die and use the grinder method to shape it.

[Don McDowell]

Have you checked to see if your 43 spanish cases will even enter the 444marlin die body? There's a considerable difference in case diameter between the two.

[43spanish]

I have not but I shall. I think I see now your scepticism as most of the case must enter the die body. Hmmm. I'll let you know.

[Don McDowell]

Well one other thing to take into consideration, this is a bottlenecked case and as such powder compression generally isn't used.
So just pour the case full of powder until the powder is just above the bottom of the neck then seat your wad and bullet.

[montana_charlie]

Okay, but the compression plug for the .43 Spanish at Track of the Wolf only costs $2.99, if you change your mind.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=2&subId=190&styleId=924&partNum=DIE-43-COMPRESS

Oh! Another thing ...
The bolt doesn't need to be hardened. Mild steel will work fine, and common iron probably would.

CM

[43spanish]

Well one other thing to take into consideration, this is a bottlenecked case and as such powder compression generally isn't used.
So just pour the case full of powder until the powder is just above the bottom of the neck then seat your wad and bullet.

The verdict is in. The .43 case will not enter the .444 die. I'm back to square zero.

I have heard that the soft lead will deform if seated onto uncompressed black powder. Are you saying to simply seat the bullet so there is no wiggle room for the powder, without noticeable compression?

[43spanish]

Okay, but the compression plug for the .43 Spanish at Track of the Wolf only costs $2.99, if you change your mind.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=2&subId=190&styleId=924&partNum=DIE-43-COMPRESS

Oh! Another thing ...
The bolt doesn't need to be hardened. Mild steel will work fine, and common iron probably would. CM

I looked at my Lee .43 Spanish bullet seating die and noticed that the edge is quite sharp. This precludes the use of a wooden dowel as the metal will quickly deform the wood surface. I might have to buy a simple generic press that will take the Lyman or RCBS compression die.

[Don McDowell]

Are you saying to simply seat the bullet so there is no wiggle room for the powder, without noticeable compression?

Yes, just make sure there's enough blackpowder in the case to keep the bullet base above the bottom of the neck.

[John Boy]

Have you checked to see if your 43 Spanish cases will even enter the 444marlin die body?
Don, fat chance! Web diameters:
... 444 Marlin = 0.470
... 11.15x58 Spanish Rem = 0.515

Spanish, I don't see why there is all this banter for variables of a compression plug that will work with a 444 Marlin. Just buy from Track of the Wolf the Lee Expander Die, the 446 Expander Plug and be done with it. The OD of a 444 Marlin case mouth is 453. If needed, chuck the plug in a drill press and take a few thousands off with a file ... plus the expander part of the plug

[Don McDowell]

John you didn't read far enough....
Besides all that we're talking about a bottleneck, compression really need not apply.....

[43spanish]

Yes, just make sure there's enough blackpowder in the case to keep the bullet base above the bottom of the neck.

This won't be a problem due to the long throat in the rifle. The bullet has to be seated quite far forward to be near the rifling. I'm casting an RCBS .446 bullet sized down. It's a long bullet. I have a .441 sizer but can go bigger still...have to work on opening the sizer die a bit.

[Don McDowell]

hehe, that' rcbs bullet is a shorty... You can get a .44? size die from BACO I have a .447 from them for the 44-77.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/Shooting2011.jpg

[43spanish]

Too late now. I got the RCBS 370gr bullet. It's long enough to touch the rifling so it should work well.

[Don McDowell]

We shot that RCBS bullet quite a bit in the 43 egyptian. Used 75 grs of Cartridge and a .030 fiber wad.
Thinking I'll use that rcbs bullet for an offhand load in the 44-77.

[43spanish]

Don, fat chance! Web diameters:
... 444 Marlin = 0.470
... 11.15x58 Spanish Rem = 0.515

Spanish, I don't see why there is all this banter for variables of a compression plug that will work with a 444 Marlin. Just buy from Track of the Wolf the Lee Expander Die, the 446 Expander Plug and be done with it. The OD of a 444 Marlin case mouth is 453. If needed, chuck the plug in a drill press and take a few thousands off with a file ... plus the expander part of the plug

I do have the Lee universal expander die, but someone here said it's better not to use a rounded surface against the wad. I did just find an old Lee press I used decades ago....I'll try to find something to mount permanently in it for compression stage.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Being a 43 shooter also you want to be a bit careful how much you compress your powder. I have at least once discovered that the cases will bulge about midway and may make chambering beyond difficult. So try to chamber a compressed cartride before deciding you can go give it a try at a range that is 22 minutes away.
Mike in Peru

[43spanish]

Good morning
Being a 43 shooter also you want to be a bit careful how much you compress your powder. I have at least once discovered that the cases will bulge about midway and may make chambering beyond difficult. So try to chamber a compressed cartride before deciding you can go give it a try at a range that is 22 minutes away.
Mike in Peru

Do you use a compression die? What have you found to be the best loading method, please?

[Mk42gunner]

43 Spanish,

It has been a few years since I loaded for and shot my 1879 Rolling Block; but when I did, I didn't use a compression die, I trickled the powder into the case through a 30" drop tube. I made my drop tube out of 3/8" copper tubing by flaring one end for the powder funnel and the other end I put enough flare on that it would rest on top of the case mouth.

An aluminum arrow shaft would probably work too, but I don't know how well it would take a flare without splitting.

After the powder was trickled in, I used an over powder wad punched from a Coke twelve pack box then seated the boolit.

Robert

[43spanish]

43 Spanish,

It has been a few years since I loaded for and shot my 1879 Rolling Block; but when I did, I didn't use a compression die, I trickled the powder into the case through a 30" drop tube. I made my drop tube out of 3/8" copper tubing by flaring one end for the powder funnel and the other end I put enough flare on that it would rest on top of the case mouth.

An aluminum arrow shaft would probably work too, but I don't know how well it would take a flare without splitting.

After the powder was trickled in, I used an over powder wad punched from a Coke twelve pack box then seated the boolit.

Robert

So I would seat the wad lightly on the powder (I have vegetable fiber), perhaps with a dowel, and then seat the bullet with just enough force to be sure there's no space between powder and bullet....

[Mk42gunner]

That is what I did, I seem to recall using a pencil to seat the card wad. I really need to get back to that project since I have a new mold for it....

Robert

[Huvius]

Came up with this:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?305796-Powder-Compression-Tool

Really should have tacked it on to this thread before starting a new one...

[bigted]

as has been mentioned [and i do the same with my 43] ... there needs no compression for a couple reasons.

as i recall ... i can install way enough powder in this very large case behind the "accurate boolit" i have purchased to settle my shoulder in fine shape with my fairly light remington roller in military form with the 32 inch barrel. the other thing is that there needs to be no extra powder in this big ol case to provide plenty of accuracy as well as fun by the bucket full.

all the compression does with some powders is to provide a consistent :burn: so as to provide the same power behind your boolit each time the trigger is yanked. the other thing that is stressed is the "space" between powder and boolit that is preached as dangerous and harmfull to the gun ... which is another thread and has been talked up with profusion.

take the bull by the horns so to speak and load as Don suggested ... put powder in the case till it just gets to the neck swell to form the neck and install your vegi wad followed with your thumb seated boolit in an unsized and mouth flaired case ... now run the whole shebang into the size die {with the decaping stem removed} to remove the mouth flair so it will rechamber. check each round as was mentioned above as well to ensure they will chamber {i also have driven to the range several miles each way only to discover that half or more of my rounds would not chamber in my rifle}.

have fun with your roller. they are a hoot and if in good shape ... should provide plenty of smiles and happy outings as well as frustration and wondering why the heck you ever bought such a beast ... they are a huge hoot.