Boolits drop too small

[Leadlum]

Boolits are dropping out of my .44 cal RCBS 250-K mold too small. I am running them after through a lee sizer, and some feel lose, and some feel more harder going through. Does anyone else have these problems? My directions say I need more tin perhaps. I am using just wheel weights right now. Where do you find tin? or a subsitute ?

[fredj338]

What size? I find my 245gr RCBS drops ww alloy about 0.430". If the mold is hot & the alloy is hot, you get more shrinkage. So try casting between 650 & 700deg. Tin can make a slight diff if addign the perscribed 1%, but temp has a lot to do with it too. Tin can be had from the Rotometal guys, buy the block tin instead of solder for best price.

[243winxb]

Linotype will make the bullets drop larger in diameter. Antimony is what you want to add + some tin.

[williamwaco]

Boolits are dropping out of my .44 cal RCBS 250-K mold too small. I am running them after through a lee sizer, and some feel lose, and some feel more harder going through. Does anyone else have these problems? My directions say I need more tin perhaps. I am using just wheel weights right now. Where do you find tin? or a subsitute ?


The best source of tin is linotype if you can find it. If not, plumbers solder.

That said: You do not "need" more tin. I have been casting bullets from straight clip on wheel weights for over 50 years. Adding tin is a wast of money. They already have plenty of tin.

If on the otherhand you are using stick on wheel weights, then you might need to add one to two percent tin.

[JSnover]

If all of them were the wrong size it might be your alloy. You say some are smaller and some are not. You are sizing boolits that were cast at different temperatures. Preheat your mold, let everything stabilize. Drop the first dozen back into the pot. When the pot temperature and the mold tremperature are stable, then you should get a consistant size. Don't blame the alloy unless you dumping more cold lead into it and not waiting for it to get back up to temp... even then it's a temperature issue, not the alloy.

[runfiverun]

if they are coming out too small right from the get-go why size them?
have you measured them from the mold?
or just after the sizing, the sizer might be your culprit.
you can also polish the mold to a slightly larger size.

[462]

What is the average diameter of the dropped boolits? (You have measured them with a micrometer, right?)
What size do you need?
Most likely, RCBS specs the mould at .430". If you need boolits fatter than .430", you will either need to "beagle" (read the sticky) or lap the mould, or order a custom mould.


Clip-on wheel weights already contain enough tin -- adding more is not necessary.

[JSnover]

Are you pouring until the pot is almost empty? That'll cause trouble. Start with a full pot. When it's half empty, add more WW and take a break while it warms up. This can also keep your mold from getting too hot.

[mpmarty]

Measure the as cast with a good micrometer, not a caliper. You may not need to size them at all.

[W.R.Buchanan]

RCBS specs the mould cherry diameters based on the shrink rate of Linotype. Verified by the GM. This will make ww material bullets that are smaller. I have been working with them on a .45-70 mould and got them to increase the size of the cherry about .002 so now Boolits cast with WW material drop big enough so they can be sized. IE .461-.462

If enough people complain they will rethink their mould specs. Since a mould cherry only lasts thru about 40-45 moulds and they are made in house it is not a big stretch to increase the size .002 or however much is needed for each mould type. Your mould should be dropping at .433 to be as versitle as is needed for the .44 cartridges it would be used in.

I pretty much convinced the GM that nobody is making boolits out of linotype. It is very diffacult to find in the first place and expensive when you do. Most everyone here is using Wheel Weight material or some alloy based on WW material, or something softer.

Alot of the bullet casting outfits make hardcast bullets. This is more about getting consistant product and mould fill out than what is actually needed. I have a box of 500 .44 cal bullets I bought that are 200 gr Beval Based RFN's which are 26 BNH! They will lead anything I shoot them thru because they don't seal the throats and bore because they are too small and harder than glass!

If you are shooting Boolits in a Revolver, it is pretty much known by all competant reloaders that you need boolits that are soft enough to obturate to seal the bore or else you get leading. Same is true wil rifle boolits. Fit is king!

Nobody shooting buffalo guns is using anything harder than 1/20 or maybe 1/16 alloy so linotype specs are not appropriate there either.

Some moulds for high power rifles like .30-06 even from Lyman (311299) are dimensiond using Linotype's shrink rate, but not very many actual users are actually using it and for all the above reasons.

It defeats the main reason for casting boolits, which is expense. Especially when you can water drop WW material and make it hard as linotype.

I just traded a guy a new 311299 mould for his 314299 mould as my boolits were dropping at .308 with WW material. They would not size and were too small for my barrels. They would have been .310+ with Linotype, and probably worked just fine, but I don't have any linotype and dont wnat the extra hassle of cleaning out my pot everytime I go back and forth between styles of Boolits.. It's not practical, and making all of my boolits out of linotype would cost me a bunch, and not work in the majority of my guns.

There are certain moulds that using this material is appropriate, but to use the same shrink rate across the board for all moulds is just plain dumb, or lazy? You choose?

Hopefully since the new guy running RCBS (who came up thru the company) will make the necesssary changes. I suggested that he simply look at what the boolits were going to be shot in and change anything that was not a bottleneck cartridge, and then go back and change them too.

Here's the deal. You can always size a boolit down a few thousandths. It is virtually impossible to make them bigger. I guesss you could plate them with copper like some of the bullet casting outfits do.

AS far as sizing boolits, there are those that do, and those that don't want to. The ones that don't want to fall into two categories, those that don't want to spend the time and effort, usually hi volumn shooters. And those that think it compromises accuracy.

Most of the Scheutzen guys don't size, All of the good Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette and Longrange shooters do.

However if you can't and you need to, you're screwed if the mould drops short. I feel most users need the option.

The best you can do with that mould is get it really hot so you get complete fill out and leave a large puddle of lead on top of the sprue plate to insure there is consistant head pressure on the mould cavity while the lead is solidifying. This will yeild the biggest boolit that mould is capable of.

The other solution is to sell that mould and buy a Mihec or NOE or other custom mould that drops what you need. I did and I'm pretty happy about it! Mihec and NOE good!

My Mihec .432-??? 429421 clone (which is essentially the same boolit style you've got) drops at .433 and I can size it for any of my 4 different .44's. Best of all worlds, as it insures that I get completely round boolits everytime no matter what size I need. I have all the options possible. Makes sense huh?

I would first call RCBS and send the mould back with a letter explaining that nobody uses linotype for .44 cal boolits and see if they will fix it. Make sure to tell them in the letter that yo are using WW material and the mould is undersized and make a point of indicating you're not interested in having the mould sent back to you un changed with a letter stating it works jsut fine. You already know it doesn't and their linotype material is not what is being used in the real world!

Hopefully if enough people complain they will just go ahead and change now instead of waiting.

Randy

[Leadlum]

Thanks for all the replies gents. Looks like I need to invest in a thermometer. And not let my pot get down low. Guilty of both.

[runfiverun]

mold temp is more critical than alloy temp.

[OnHoPr]

It might sound like your inconsistent with your casting technique. Are your locating pins lubed? You might not be getting the mold shut in a consistent way. Once your start keep a consistent pace. Make sure mold and alloy are both up to temp. These are points that will drop inconsistent bullets from the same pot too.

[Leadlum]

The locating pins WAS another problem I had, I did tap them into the mating block to make a tighter connection.The blocks are square NOW. Do you lubricate them? never did that either?
Thanks for all the advice guys.

[Larry Gibson]

As mentioned, suggest adding 1 1/2 - 2% tin and casting with alloy at 700 - 725. Also as mentioned keep a steady pace so the mould temp also stays correct.

Larry Gibson

[243winxb]

http://www.redding-reloading.com/online-catalog/88-bullet-moulds-charts
The bullet diameters and weights presented in this list are based on the use of Taracorp’s Lawrence Magnum bullet alloy (2% tin, 6% antimony, 1/4% arsenic, 91.75% lead).

Bullet diameters and weights will vary considerably depending on the lead casting alloy used. This variation can be as much as 1/2% on the diameter, and 8% on the weight among the most commonly used casting alloys. For example, a .358-158 grain bullet might show a diameter variation of .002", and a 13 grain difference in weight.

Of the most commonly used alloys, wheel weights (.5% tin, 4% antimony, 95% lead) will produce bullets having the smallest diameter and heaviest weight, with such bullets running approximately 1/3% smaller in diameter and 3% heavier than bullets cast with Taracorp's metal. Linotype will produce bullets with the largest diameter and lightest weights. This alloy will produce bullets approximately 1/10% larger and 3% lighter than Taracorp. Other alloys of tin and antimony, with antimony content above 5%, will produce bullets with diameters and weights falling between those cast f rom wheel weights and linotype.

Alloys containing little or no antimony will cast considerably smaller than wheel weights and in some cases will produce bullets too small for adequate sizing.

Within the limitations given above, the weight and diameter of a cast bullet can be adjusted by varying the
alloy’s antimony content.

The size and weight of bullets of a given alloy will also vary according to casting temperature. Higher temperatures will result in greater shrinkage as the bullet cools, thereby producing a slightly smaller and lighter bullet than one cast of the same alloy at a lower temperature. :smile: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/paidad/rotometals.jpg

[MtGun44]

Thermometer is not a critical tool. Just adjust up and down as needed. The problem with
a thermometer is that not much is consistent so that there is some magic value to go to.
Different molds and different alloys require different temps.

Bill

[Markbo]

....Different molds and different alloys require different temps.....Bill

Then how do you tell what they are without a thermometer? I am sure many years of experience, but what about those of us that have been casting a very short time... seems to me a thermometer would be a very useful tool, no?

[243winxb]

seems to me a thermometer would be a very useful tool, no? No. Iron moulds need lots of heat to get them up to temp, unless you use a hot plate to preheat. Not recomended on iron moulds. Experence is the best teacher. To hot and bullet will be frosted coming out of the mould.
The size and weight of bullets of a given alloy will also vary according to casting temperature. This statement may be true, but will .0005" really make a difference? Besides, most all cast boolits are not rounds as the drop from the moulds.

[MT Gianni]

Tin can be found in solder. Lead free solder is full of tin. A foot or so added to a pot can increase fillout.
You may benefit from making a small mark on your mold. Tap a punch VERY LIGHTLY on the nose section of one cavity. You can then determine if it is one cavity that is undersized or a temperature issue. I would start with keeping temps even first. Good luck.

[918v]

I think the difference in diameters you are seeing is due to your inconsistent closing of the mold halves. I notice the same thing with my bullets. Some are harder to size than others. No biggie.

There is a guy who makes a cam-lock device that will close the mold like nothing else, but I can't think of the name right now.

[MikeS]

No. Iron moulds need lots of heat to get them up to temp, unless you use a hot plate to preheat. Not recomended on iron moulds. Experence is the best teacher. To hot and bullet will be frosted coming out of the mould. This statement may be true, but will .0005" really make a difference? Besides, most all cast boolits are not rounds as the drop from the moulds.

Ok, your reply has me confused. Are you saying that a thermometer is not needed? And what's not recommended on iron moulds? I pre-heat all my moulds on a hotplate, and I have a thermometer inserted into one of the cavities while it's there so I can see what temp the mould is getting to. As for the pot, perhaps a thermometer isn't NEEDED but it sure is a good thing to have. Remember the old saying "Knowledge is strength" (or however it went), if you don't have a thermometer of some kind in your pot, than you have no way of knowing how hot your lead is. Oh you might be able to cast good boolits without one, but having one is just another way to know what's going on in your pot. Even if you stick a thermometer in you pot, and proceed to do everything by your old ways (rather than trying to base everything on what it's saying), it's still nice to be able to know at what temp your 'sweet spot' is.

I just went one step further, and added a PID controller to control the heat of my pot. Again, something that not everyone is going to want to do, but for me I like not relying on Lee's idea of temp control. While I had no problem with consistency before getting the PID controller, it's amazing how much more consistant the boolits I made were with the PID controller. Normally when I size my boolits there are some that require a bit more pressure to get thru the sizing die, and some need quite a bit less, but from the first batch of boolits I cast using the PID controller, I was amazed at how consistant the pressure on the sizer was with them! Does that mean that they'll shoot any better than the boolits I cast before? I doubt it, but it is possible. I figure that everything I can do to make casting easier, and more consistant is a good thing. Does that make my boolits any better than ones cast by a guy over a campfire? maybe, and maybe not. Remember, most people here are casting boolits either for the enjoyment they get from casting their own, or for the savings in being able to cast lots of boolits so they can shoot more, shooting being enjoyment for them, the main thing is enjoyment. If it's not fun to do, why do it?