Postell Smokeless 45-90 load

[30yrcaster]

Hello,

Does anyone have the Postell Smokeless 45-90 3031 load from the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook along with the velocities it mentions? I read somewhere the Lyman book has loads for 3031 in the lower velocity range (1200-1300)

I have an old Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook that only goes to 400 gr bullets. I think my book is actually the first edition. There's not even a date in it.

Thanks!!

[MT Chambers]

My 3rd edition doesn't show loads for the 45/90, 50/90 yes......I just don't see why one would load small amounts of smokeless powder into these large cases with the risks involved. All my big buffalo cart. rifles shoot so well with cases filled with Black powder, or barring that, duplex loads. No worries about fillers, position sensitivity, chamber ringing, brass coming apart, etc., just my 2 cents worth!!

[30yrcaster]

I wasn't trying to start up a black powder / smokeless powder debate with my post. I saw loads in my old Lyman cast bullet book for 45-90 and read a post someware about a Lyman loads for the 45-90 and the Postell using 3031 powder. My book is pretty old and doesn't have the postell as I mentioned.

RCBS also has some 45-90 loads in their cast bullet book but the one I have is also quite old. It doesn't show their 500 gr bullet.

No need to wonder why people would want to use smokeless in a 45-70 or 45-90 as Lyman and RCBS wouldn't put loads out there if nobody wanted to use it or try it. Again, I'm not trying to fuel the fire on a black powder / smokless debate, just looking for the load in the Lyman manual if there is one or the RCBS for their 500 gr bullet if they have it in their newer books.

Thanks

[w30wcf]

30yrcaster,

Accurate Arms 5744 was developed for just such applications.
With 500 gr.cast bullets in the .45-90 they show:
29.3 grs. / 1,243 f.p.s.
32.5 grs. / 1,413 f.p.s. / 27,200 p.s.i.

w30wcf

[boommer]

first off what type of rifle are you going to use this in? IMR 3031 from some loads on
load sheet show that powder only for 330GR slugs.I got this off a site is at
www.relodersnest.com Try there

[30yrcaster]

It doesn't matter much what rifle I'm going to use as I'm looking for 1200-1300 fps which is good for trapdoor rifles and anything stronger.

My Speer manual shows 38 gr 3031 with their 500 gr cast lead bullet giving 1285 fps for the 45-70 trapdoor. I'm interested in 3031 because I have a can of it I'm not using and it seems to come up in alot of 45-70 & 45-90 loads I've seen.

I used the 3031 with 350 & 400 gr jacketed bullets at 200 yds and it shot pretty darn good.

I looked at reloadersnest.com and only saw a 45-70 load with the postell and AA5744. Good site!!

Thanks

[MGySgt]

The Lyman 48th edition (Dec 02) does not list 3031 with the 531 grain bullet. As a matter of fact they don't list 3031 for any bullets for the 45/90.

When I got my first 45/90 I bought Quick load from Neco and haven't looked back since.

Drew

[30yrcaster]

Thanks to everyone that looked in their Lyman manuals! I actually found the post on this website I was referring to and it was a 45-70 Postell load using 3031, not 45-90. Don't know if that's in the current Lyman books it only mentioned "Lyman's Receipe."

I went out with 35 gr of 3031 and postell's and it was 13 inches low at 200 yds compared to a load of 76 gr swiss that is dead on.

[montana_charlie]

I actually found the post on this website I was referring to and it was a 45-70 Postell load using 3031, not 45-90.
I don't have strong feelings about shooters who want to use smokeless powder in the old BP cartridges. I shoot only black, but that's a preference, not a safety thing.

I also don't (usually) spend much time on the Shiloh website. But, while looking for a globe sight insert case I heard about, I was browsing around over there a couplle of days ago.

I imagine that anybody would consider Shiloh rifles to be as strongly built as any Sharps pattern on the market. So, I found this (as one side of the black vs. smokeless comparison) to be very interesting...

I used bold type to point out what their warranty covers.

"Can you shoot smokeless power in your Shiloh Model 1874, or is it strictly a blackpowder rifle? Our attitude here at Shiloh is that blackpowder makes these rifles what they are. It gives the feel (and smell!) of what it was like for buffalo hunters or target shooters over 100 years ago. And, it also is capable of extremely good accuracy all the way to 1,000 yards, with the assistance of a good spotting scope and someone to get you on target.

However, some Sharps shooters shy away from using blackpowder for whatever their reasons. Therefore our rifles that are chambered for cartridges for which modern factory manufactured smokeless powder ammunition is available are warrantied for such ammunition. Those are the 30-40K, .38-55, and .45-70.

NOTE: We do not recommend that smokeless powder handloads be used in the large volume blackpowder cartridges of the 1870s. There have been reports of excessive pressures, even detonations, happening when too little smokeless powder is loaded in large-capacity cartridges. The big blackpowder rounds were meant to be loaded with blackpowder, and they perform better with blackpowder. Therefore if you desire to be a smokeless powder Sharps shooter, stay with those calibers for which smokeless powder ammunition is readily available."

You can be sure they are quite proud of the strength of their rifles, but it would appear (by ommission) that chamberings other than those three are NOT warrantied by Shiloh for the use of smokeless...
CM

[wills]

Here is the data from Accurate
http://www.accuratepowder.com/loaddata_caliber_rifle_obsolete.htm

[30yrcaster]

I don't have strong feelings about shooters who want to use smokeless powder in the old BP cartridges. I shoot only black, but that's a preference, not a safety thing.
...
You can be sure they are quite proud of the strength of their rifles, but it would appear (by ommission) that chamberings other than those three are NOT warrantied by Shiloh for the use of smokeless...
CM

All I wanted was the load data in the Lyman manual for the 45-90 if it existed. Not sure where this all came from. I'm not that worried about a load with 1200 fps and < 19,000 lbs pressure. Unless there's something else going on I'm unaware of, a full case of BP and a postell bullet generates around the same pressure and velocity.

I suppose what you are trying to convey is that modern Shiloh rifles can't stand up to the Trapdoor loads listed in the Speer manual and others for actual rifles built in the 1800's. If that's the case, I'm glad I don't have a Shiloh and I'll keep that in mind if I ever want to get one. Thanks for the heads-up.

I believe some of the other replica builders recommend using jacketed bullets for barrel breakin and don't specify using BP for this.

I can see this topic is very important to you as you must have spent considerable time researching your point. My "RCBS Cast Bullet Manual" actually shows the 45-90 section with 300 - 500 gr lead bullets is for the Shiloh Sharps 1874 rifles. I would suggest you contacting RCBS (www.rcbs.com) to let them know Shiloh's limitations and maybe contact Shiloh to let them know what RCBS has in their manual. My manual is from the 80's so maybe they've already changed it or maybe Shiloh changed how they make their rifles.

[30yrcaster]

Here is the data from Accurate
http://www.accuratepowder.com/loaddata_caliber_rifle_obsolete.htm

Thanks for the link!!

It's cool how each load is a pdf you can just save.

[MT Chambers]

I think what some of us have discovered is that these large cases don't do well with smokeless and I have serious safety concerns with it!! I have experienced detonations, hangfires, squibloads, etc when using 3031, etc. in the big cases. you can be going along fine and on your tenth shot something goes wrong and you pull half the case out of the chamber and the shot sounded off! If your lucky, your chamber won't be wrung.

[montana_charlie]

All I wanted was the load data in the Lyman manual for the 45-90 if it existed.
There was a quote from you that preceeded my comment. It was meant to signify that I was under the belief that you had resolved your search for .45-90 information.
With your question covered (I thought) to your satisfaction, I felt it appropriate to pass on some information I had recently run across...information relative to the sub-discussion already in progress in your thread.

I suppose what you are trying to convey is that modern Shiloh rifles can't stand up to the Trapdoor loads listed in the Speer manual and others for actual rifles built in the 1800's.
You suppose incorrectly.
It was my intent to provide an additional facet to the general BP vs. smokeless debate which I had never heard mentioned in this, or other similar conversations. This 'facet' consisted of a view of the subject from one who builds rifles with the chamberings in question...and who has a fine reputation for the strength of those rifles.

I believe some of the other replica builders recommend using jacketed bullets for barrel breakin and don't specify using BP for this.
There is a well-known barrel maker who recommends the procedure.

I can see this topic is very important to you as you must have spent considerable time researching your point.
Actually, it isn't...and I stated as much.
I was 'carrying' recently found information, wishing for a venue for passing it along, and found the subject rising in your thread.
Having waited until you seemed to have received what you sought, I didn't feel that I was hijacking your thread.
If you think I did...well, that is unfortunate.
CM

[30yrcaster]

I think what some of us have discovered is that these large cases don't do well with smokeless and I have serious safety concerns with it!! I have experienced detonations, hangfires, squibloads, etc when using 3031, etc. in the big cases. you can be going along fine and on your tenth shot something goes wrong and you pull half the case out of the chamber and the shot sounded off! If your lucky, your chamber won't be wrung.

Sorry to hear you've had so many serious problems using smokless powder in a 45-90. To have had detonations, hangfires, squibloads etc just using 3031 or other smokeless powder in a 45-90, I'd also be concerned. Whatever you're doing I'd certainly stop. Glad you weren't injured. We were always taught not to open the action if a round doesn't go off and wait a minute or two. Maybe something's wrong with your rifle.

LIke I mentioned before I'd contact RCBS (www.rcbs.com) and let them know this as they have 45-90 loads up to 500 gr bullets for the Shiloh Sharps 1874 rifles in their Cast Bullet Handbook using 3031, 4198, 2400 etc. Let them know what they are publishing is unsafe. While on the phone let them know what you're doing to have such a high malfunction rate and maybe they can help you. With companies being so lawsuit worried, I wonder why RCBS would have the 45-90 listed with smokless powder if it's so dangerous. I always thought of RCBS to be a safety concience company.

Best of luck to you.

[bigborefan]

While I use both black powder and smokeless in my 45/90 1874 Sharps, I see no problem using smokeless in this caliber as long as you are using SR4759 or 5744 powder. These powders were made especially for cast bullet loads. At 35 grs of SR 4759, I get a velocity of 1519 fps at 21,800 C.U.P. Other powders also work as in IMR 3031 but personnally I feel on the safe side with the above mentioned powders.

[boommer]

30YRCASTER I think you feel we are attacking you on your powder selection but we are not ! maybe we are trying to giving you a heads up. Just because you have 3031 in stock does'nt mean you should try and make it work. it might work ? but I have
never seen any Info on it shooting 500 gr slugs only 330 grs . But working with squibloads you are running the the same fine line as over loads in someways
all we are saying here use an open thought here. I think !!!!!!!

[felix]

Big grained powders tend to ignite much easier. Big diameter especially. ... felix

[Leverluver]

None of my Lyman manuals, from ancient to modern, show the 45-90 with any bullet heavier than 400 grains. I would suppose that they were thinking that a 45-90 meant in a lever action rifle. The tube magazine precludes the pointy bullet and the twist in the 45-90 Winchester rifles is too slow for heavy bullets. I haven't seen any data for your combination but if there is any out there, I would think that it is of fairly recent origin. Any old original rifle, with questionable metalurgy, that chambered the twin of the 45-90 , i.e., the 45 2.4" Sharps etc., was definitely a black powder only rifle and I guess that is why Lyman and other manuals of the period steered clear of smokeless loads for what is basically a Sharps/Remington/Ballard type cartridge. Any smokeless loads for that case and bullet weight surely came in the last 25 years or so, with the advent of the modern versions of those rifles and their newer steels. Basically what I am saying is that looking into the past won't help with a load for a modern gun. The old manuals never developed loads for such a situation.

I'm with you that there is surely a safe combination with your components that isn't going to strain anything. Just that with my library of old data, no one has done it, at least not in the older manuals that would even have the 45-90 in it.

Funny that Buffalo Bore shows their high pressure 45-70s as suitable for the Shiloh Sharps. Wonder if Shiloh knows about that. They are certainly strong (I have two) but I waited too long for them to arrive and I don't think I will be the one to do the test ;-)

Good luck in your search for a load.

[Andy_P]

Seems by reviving this, I'll be creating a "Lazarus" thread, but I've been loading the 45-70 and 45-90 with smokeless and the Postell bullet, and might be able to contribute.

In the 45-90 with IMR3031 and the Postell bullet, in my experience, you need to start at about 48.0 grs as a minimum and work up to about 54.0 grs if you want to limit it to "Trapdoor" pressures, and in most guns you'll be running 1500+ fps as a result. I don't think that there a 45-90 load for the Postell bullet using IMR3031 that will provide a safe, reliable 1200-1300 fps. Reducing the amount of that powder will reduce the MV (and by about 42.0 grs you'll be near 1300 fps), but the lower you go, the higher the risk of hangfires and squibs.

As mentionned, in the 45-90, if you want 1200-1300 fps with the Postell with smokeless at Trapdoor pressure levels, you'll need to use a few select powders faster than IMR3031. I have found SR4759 at 28.0 grs will be close, and so might 2400 and XMP5744. Unique or Trail Boss to a max of 15.0 grs might just approach 1000 fps.

You can safely load the 45-90 with smokeless to Trapdoor levels, but you need to be selective in the powders you choose and the amount you use.

[Andy_P]

The new Lyman Casting Handbook #4 has smokeless 45-90 loads, including for the Postell.

[Landric]

And since the Postell boolit has come up, I can't help but put in a plug for the NOE Postell group buy:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=102833

[peerlesscowboy]

The Lyman Reloading Handbook 49th edition list data for the #457132 (postell) using IMR3031 in the .45-70 trapdoor springfield section;

start
36.0gr...1204fps...11,600CUP

max
41.0gr...1409fps...18,000CUP

Also lists data for the .45-90 using the #457132, they don't list 3031 here but it's my observation and speculation that they just don't spend as much time and effort testing all conceivable combinations with the less used cartridges. They DO list .45-90 smokeless loads using SR-4759, XMP-5744, IMR-4198 & Rx7.

FWIW, I'm running as a BP equiv. load in my .45-90 Winchester (Miroku) 1885;

515gr Ly457125CV, ......27gr IMR4198 topped with 3.1cc cornmeal. Av Vel 1296fps and accurate enuf' to hit Hovet's 1,000+ yard buffalo more times than not.

John C. Saubak

[geargnasher]

I have some experience with the Postell boolit and the .45/90, but no chrono data. I started the 3031 workup at 40 grains plus a grain of Dacron, using Federal LR Magnum primers, stopped at 42 grains. I had such severe leading from the 12 bhn WW boolits that I gave up and went with another powder. The boolits fit, had every groove filled with Felix lube, and should have been hard enough for the job, but it didn't work for me. I would love to know how fast they were going because the recoil from the Shiloh 1874 was quite punishing.

I tried the 505 grain RN Lyman also, same results. Tried 4198 with both boolits, worked up and down, dacron and no dacron, standard and magnum primers, 20:1 and air-cooled WW, tried the 450 grain Lee boolit with 4198, with and without Dacron, finally gave up and bought and can of Reloder 7 and went back to the 505 grain ACWW boolit and 3/4 grain of Dacron, 30-35 grains did the trick, last range session got me 6" 10-shot groups at 300 yards with only mild leading. After a lot of research I'd try the Reloder 7 first for straight-walled rifle cartridges.

Gear