Chinese 7.62x39 powder

[MikeS]

Hi.

I have lots of Norinco Chinese 7.62x39 cartridges that I've been pulling the steel jacketed bullets from, and reloading them with my cast lead boolits. For the first few boxes I've just been dumping the Chinese powder, but I have almost 500 rounds of this stuff, so I thought maybe I should reuse the powder. It's a stick like powder that looks slightly smaller in size to H4895, although it smells nothing like it. The cartridges have 130gr bullets on them, and I'm loading them with NOE314129 boolits that lubed and checked weigh around 134gr. The chinese loading is 26gr, and reducing that by 20% gives me a charge of 20.8gr which also happens to be what I get with my Lyman Accumeasure using a #13 rotor! Is that enough of a reduction for the differences of using a lead boolit? Or do I need to reduce it further?

Does anyone know what powder this stuff is? Or what powder it's equivalent to? I also have 20 rounds of genuine Russian ammo, and the powder from them looks about the same as the Chinese powder, but their cartridges were only loaded with 25gr each, and I've already dumped the Russian powder along with some of the early Chinese pulls out in the back yard to help the palm trees grow. :) I vaguely remember seeing somewhere that the Russian rounds were loaded with a powder that was equivalent to AA1680, could the Chinese be using the same powder? And if so, do they load their ammo hotter than the Russians?

Using H4895 I've loaded about 40 rounds with 20.5gr (which also happens to be the #13 rotor) which I'm assuming should be a safe load, as I've seen that charge recommended with the 31141 boolit, and I've loaded some of them as well before I got the NOE mould. Of the Norinco ammo I have they're all steel cases, and some of them have a brown coating (either laquer or a polymer, I don't know exactly), and some have what I believe is a plating that's sort of copper colored, as it feels metallic, and it's on the insides of the cases as well.

I'm hoping I can get to the range sometime within the next month to test some of the loads, but with the way the weather has been I doubt it will be anytime soon, as I'll be taking the Mini-30 to the county range which is an outdoor range, and with all the rain we've been having it's probably a large mud pit right around now!

[cbrick]

First, never assume there is a canister grade powder for loaded factory ammo. Ammo factories have the means and the labs to blend whatever powder they need. They want to load a given cartridge and they look at the powders they have on hand, they have the knowledge and ballistics lab to blend powders to come up with a specific burn rate and pressure in a specific cartridge. The next run of that same cartridge could well be a completely different powder made the same way. No, do not consider this yourself, you do not have a full blown ballistics lab and you have no ballisticians working for you.

Why would you want to reduce by 20% to use cast? Cast offers less resistance going through the bore and thus somewhat less pressure than a similar weight full length gas check bullet.

Chinese loading hotter than the Russians? Who knows what the Chinese are doing or how they do it? The only consistency from China that I've seen is poor quality with even worse quality control.

Rick

[Larry Gibson]

I'd venture that those jacketed bullets are pushing 2250+ fps out of your AK. That may be a bit much accuracy wise for the 134 gr cast bullet concerning the usual 9.5" twists in AK barrels. I'd try the 20.8 gr load and see how accuracy and functioning is. You might find it works fine and is a "gentler" AK to shoot. If the functioning is not 100% then I'd increase the powder charge 1/2 gr at a time until it is.

Larry Gibson

[cbrick]

I'd venture that those jacketed bullets are pushing 2250+ fps out of your AK. That may be a bit much accuracy wise for the 134 gr cast bullet concerning the usual 9.5" twists in AK barrels. Larry Gibson

Good point, I didn't stop to consider the velocity.

Rick

[MikeS]

I reduced the load for 2 reasons. First, as Larry said, I knew that the original loading wasn't a reduced loading, and figured it would be too fast for a cast boolit. And secondly, I was under the impression that for a starting cast load it was common to take the 'normal' load for the weight boolit, and reduce it to 70% as a starting cast boolit load. I was actually concerned that by reducing it only 20% to 80% of the original load might be too much. I guess it will be a safe load pressure wise, but it might not be that accurate, and/or might lead the barrel. Does anyone know, is the Mini-30 action stronger than an AK action?

[Larry Gibson]

I wouldn't be concerned about pressure being too much, I'd be concerned it was too little which might cause functioning problems.

I doubt the Mini 14 is "stronger" than the AK in the sense you are probably asking.

Larry Gibson

[tomme boy]

I thought the powder for the 7.62x39 was accurate 1680.

[mooman76]

Is it really worth risking a gun or an injury to save $25 on a can of powder?

[bumpo628]

I don't think it's worth playing around with it for 1.5 lbs of powder.
I would just fertilize the lawn with it.

I'm all for saving money, but guessing about powder charges scares me. There's just too much power in there. For all we know, undercharging it is as bad as overcharging.

[gwilliams2]

It'll make some good fertilizer...

[Larry Gibson]

Worth messing around with? Some might think that 500+ rounds out of 1 1/2 pound of powder plus the knowledge to use additional such pulldown powder for such cast bullet loads might be "worth messing around with it". Just a matter of one's own opinion I guess since it is perfectly safe powder and many of us use milsurp powders in reduced cast bullet loads.

Larry Gibson

[fatelk]

I have to agree with Larry. Using salvaged powder may be against the "rules" of loading (and in general I also toss salvaged powder), but this is more or less a known powder. You may not know exactly what it is, but you know its original application.

I would never encourage anyone to try something they aren't confortable with, but I'm inclined to think that carefully working up a reduced load with it shouldn't be that bad. I've done a lot of such tinkering in my years, and am not missing any body parts yet (at least nothing attributable to firearm mishaps). I have had some close calls, though, and learned what NOT to do.:) I guess it is a good idea to understand what you're dealing with before you start tinkering.

One thing I would not do is assume exactly what it is and load some full pressure loads based on that assumption. That is a recipe for disaster.

[MikeS]

fatelk, you're right. I don't know what this powder is, but I do know that it was used in the 7.62x39 using a bullet that's within 5gr of the cast boolit I'm using, so I feel it's probably safe to use it in a slightly reduced load in the 7.62x39. I would never take this powder, and load any 30-30s with it (my other rifle). Even in the 7.62x39 if I'm going to load a boolit of a different weight (like the 31141, currently my only other 30 cal mould) I wouldn't use this powder.

Between the powder I've thrown on it, and the poop my dogs put on it, the grass in my backyard should be real healthy! :)

[Three44s]

You would have to use your own judgement as to what a "lot" of ammo was comprised of ......

Such a "lot" would be a box or case with the same lot number?

If you pulled down that much powder and treated it as it's own lot .......... that would be one way to proceed.

If you are loading down and not heading into squib territory, you are reducing pressures from the original.

But I am not real cozy with Chinnese stuff .............. I recall the dog food fiasco ......... feeding one's dog should not have been too technical .......... but look where that ended up.

Three 44s

[MikeS]

I agree that Chinese stuff isn't always the best. As for the dog food, I'm not convinced that it wasn't part of a focused effort against America. I mean with all the 'bad' stuff coming out of Communist China (drywall comes to mind along with the dog food). But I'm not sure if I should worry about that with the ammo or not. I think this ammo is made originally for the export market, and is NOT Chinese military surplus (unless the started using soft point ammo), but it's loaded in the same factories, and I'm not sure if they know when they're making it where it's headed to. If they did, then maybe I should worry!

[Me not you]

"Does anyone know, is the Mini-30 action stronger than an AK action?"

Well, I have used both for just about everything except military combat.

I use a Mini-30 and consider it to be a much better general purpose utility rifle than an AK using the 7.62x39mm cartridge. The AK's primary virtue is reliability under adverse conditions.

The Mini-30 is using a variant of the Garand reciever and bolt, which worked pretty well for higher pressure cartridges. Ruger metallurgy is excellent, with their M77 action being one of the strongest on the market.

I would trust the "inherent" strength of a Mini-30 much more than a Chinese made AK action for example.

Keep in mind, the cartridge was never intended the kind of high-pressure loading that would be normal with a 7mm Magnum.

The "AR" community continually trashes the Ruger rifle as some kind of junky inferior rifle. I consider their opinion as junk. Given a choice, for use as a hunting, plinking and general utility rifle; I'd take the Mini-30 over an AK-47 variant every time. The AK's seem awkward, less accurate, and just don't fit right. They generally don't shoot as well either. As far as the AR platform is concerned, it's more up to the individual. I'll STILL stay with my Mini-30.