Hello, to the bullet Masters out there! Question...

[sabrecross03]

Hi, my name is Roger and I am new to the forum. I'll new to casting and I have been casting for three months. I've searched for the answer to my question and I have been unable to find the answer to my question.

I've included a picture of the loaded Lee TL.358-158SWC in my 9mm case (OAL is 1.09"), the Lee TL.358-158 SWC bullet (middle), and the Lee TL.356-124TC bullet (right).

SITUATION and FACTS:
I have a S&W M&P 9c with a slugged barrel of .356
I am using a Lee TL .356-124TC mold and I am consistently getting .355 bullets whether I air dry them or water quench them. My alloy is Lyman #2. I use Lee Alox Tumble Lube.

I also have a S&W 360 357 magnum revolver. I cast bullets for it using a Lee TL .358-158 SWC mold. If I size them, the diameter of my bullet is 357.57 on the micrometer and 157.5 gr on the scale.

I would like to use the Lee TL .358-158 SWC bullets for my 9mm. They chamber and cycle fine with an OAL of 1.009 but I'm not sure if the generated pressure will be too high for that particular round.

MEASUREMENTS:

A. (pictured on the left) OAL of .358 bullet 1.009 (In order to chamber & cycle)
B: (pictured in the middle) Bullet length of Lee TL .358-158SWC: .375"
C: (pictured on the right) Bullet length of Lee TL .356-124TC Bullet length: .275"
D: (Not Pictured and just for comparison) OAL of .356 Bullet 1.100"
E: (Not Pictured) 9mm Inside Case length: .580" length measure from the
inside of the case from the primer to bullet opening



QUESTION:
1. If I use my .358-158 SWC bullet in my 9mm case, will the decreased volume (due to the longer bullet +.100" and the shorter OAL 1.009) cause undue pressure in my M&P?

2. I will have less volume for my powder and I will be pushing a longer bullet, .358 bullet, that is 34 grains heaver than the .356 bullet. [U]Can this be done with less powder. (I've been using 4.5 grains of Power Pistol for my Lee TL .356-124TC bullets with success, but I've had a lot of leading all the way through the barrel due to the .355 bullet). My thinking is: [I]I would need to begin with a lower charge of Power Pistol (maybe 3.0 grains) using the larger .358 bullets due to the increase in pressure?...Is my theory accurate?

Thank you.

[RayinNH]

Good morning Roger, welcome to the crowd. Lot of things in that post. so I'll cover just a few. In the case of of the Lee 124 TC boolit at .355 is the cause of the leading. Try "beagling"(use the search function) the mold to get some extra size.

In the case of the 158 grain boolit, because you are seating deeper and because it's heavier you are increasing pressure so you will need to back down on the charge. I've never used PP so I'll let someone else give you better advice here...Ray

[ku4hx]

Hi, my name is Roger and I am new to the forum. I'll new to casting and I have been casting for three months. I've searched for the answer to my question and I have been unable to find the answer to my question.

I've included a picture of the loaded Lee TL.358-158SWC in my 9mm case (OAL is 1.09"), the Lee TL.358-158 SWC bullet (middle), and the Lee TL.356-124TC bullet (right).

SITUATION and FACTS:
I have a S&W M&P 9c with a slugged barrel of .356
I am using a Lee TL .356-124TC mold and I am consistently getting .355 bullets whether I air dry them or water quench them. My alloy is Lyman #2. I use Lee Alox Tumble Lube.

I also have a S&W 360 357 magnum revolver. I cast bullets for it using a Lee TL .358-158 SWC mold. If I size them, the diameter of my bullet is 357.57 on the micrometer and 157.5 gr on the scale.

MEASUREMENTS:

A. OAL of .358 bullet 1.009 (In order to chamber & cycle)
B: Bullet length of Lee TL .358-158SWC: .375"
C: Bullet length of Lee TL .356-124TC Bullet length: .275"
D: (Not Pictured) OAL of .356 Bullet 1.100"
E: (Not Pictured) 9mm Inside Case length: .580" length measure from the
inside of the case from the primer to bullet opening



QUESTION:
1. If I use my .358-158 SWC bullet in my 9mm case, will the decreased volume (due to the longer bullet +.100" and the shorter OAL 1.009) cause undue pressure in my M&P?
2. I will have less volume for my powder and I will be pushing a longer bullet, .358 bullet, that is .034 grains heaver than the .356 bullet. [U]Can this be done with less powder. I've been using 4.5 grains of Power Pistol for my Lee TL .356-124TC bullets with success, but I've had a lot of leading all the way through the barrel. My thinking is: [I]I would need to begin with a lower charge of Power Pistol (maybe 3.0 grains) using the larger .358 bullets?...Is my theory accurate?

Thank you.

First things first. A 158 grain bullet is 34 grains heavier than a 124 grain bullet. A 34 grain difference in bullet weight is significant in choosing powder charges. .034 grain is an insignificant weight difference. You'll get weight differences far greater than that among the bullets you cast of any one design in any one mold. Maybe I just interpreted incorrectly what you wrote but .034 is .034 and not 34.

As a new caster you likely can benefit greatly from a good written source on the subject. The Lyman casting manual is always a good place to start.

Have you shot any of your loads and if so were you satisfied with the results? If your loads are safe, function to your satisfaction and are accurate enough to suit you then you have a good formula regardless of the particulars.

My current load for 9mm is 5.5 grains Power Pistol and either a Lee 124 grain RN or TC. I cast using "hard ball" which is 92% lead, 2% tin and 6% antimony. My guns seems to like .356" boolits but the RN mold drops .358" so I don't size them. No pressure signs, functioning has been perfect through about 200 of each and accuracy is outstanding. I do taper crimp in a separate station and verify a new batch of loaded rounds will drop freely into and out of my guns chambers. I love that satisfying "ka-plunk" when dropped into the chamber.

When I first starting reloading in the late '60s, I too was all into the numbers. Now I'm all into good safely loaded rounds made with boolits that cast well, load easily, function reliably and hit where I aim the gun. Once I'm there, the metrics are all in place.

[sabrecross03]

Thanks for the feedback. I've been reading through several reloading manuals including Lyman's. I'd like to shoot the heavier bullet but my first concern is safety.

Due to my undersized .356 bullets (.345-.355 in reality), my accuracy has suffered s bit and I've had a number of bullets tumble into the target.

[sabrecross03]

Thank you. I've looked up "beagling" but I believe I purchased the wrong alum. tape because the stuff I purchased melted :(


Good morning Roger, welcome to the crowd. Lot of things in that post. so I'll cover just a few. In the case of of the Lee 124 TC boolit at .355 is the cause of the leading. Try "beagling"(use the search function) the mold to get some extra size.

In the case of the 158 grain boolit, because you are seating deeper and because it's heavier you are increasing pressure so you will need to back down on the charge. I've never used PP so I'll let someone else give you better advice here...Ray

[RayinNH]

Aluminum foil tape should be easy to find, but if you want to PM me your mailing address I'll mail you some...Ray

[sabrecross03]

Thank you, Ray. PM sent.

[sabrecross03]

I did a little more testing today and I seem to have bad news. I slugged my 9mm barrel again and the slug measures .35675

Then, I loaded several dummy rounds (.35743) from my Lee TL .358-158 SWC mold into several other 9mm cases. I pulled the bullets and it seems that my bullet-seater die reduces the diameter of the bullet from .3575 to .3557- AND this is not even using the FDC die! I'm bummed a bit. I even tried using my 38/357 die set to seat the bullet and the bullet's diameter is still reduced to .3557. So, I'm not sure what to do.

[frankenfab]

maybe Lee would send you a new mold, or you could buy another one and have better luck on size? $25-$30 spent is worth a lot of time struggling with something that just doesn't work right.

[sabrecross03]

I'll try the bealging a bit more and if that doesn't work for me than I think replacing the mold is the next step.

But even when I use a .3582 bullet from my Lee TL .358 SWC mold, it is somehow reduced from .3575 to .3557/.3563 in the seating process...



maybe Lee would send you a new mold, or you could buy another one and have better luck on size? $25-$30 spent is worth a lot of time struggling with something that just doesn't work right.

[462]

When I first started casting, I was using Lee dies and all the seating dies were swaging down the boolits. I switched to Lyman...problem solved. In my experience, Lyman are the most boolit friendly dies, though RCBS has a category of "Cowboy" dies that are designed for cast boolits.

Another Lyman plus is their expander "M-die". There's a sticky, somewhere, and their web-site explains how it works -- illustrations included.

I agree with Frankenfab...I quit being any manufacturer's quality control department, and have returned two Lee moulds. And, it's not that I can't fix them, it's that I shouldn't have to.

[Jailer]

I did a little more testing today and I seem to have bad news. I slugged my 9mm barrel again and the slug measures .35675

Then, I loaded several dummy rounds (.35743) from my Lee TL .358-158 SWC mold into several other 9mm cases. I pulled the bullets and it seems that my bullet-seater die reduces the diameter of the bullet from .3575 to .3557- AND this is not even using the FDC die! I'm bummed a bit. I even tried using my 38/357 die set to seat the bullet and the bullet's diameter is still reduced to .3557. So, I'm not sure what to do.

Did you use your 38/357 dies just to seat or did you use the expander die from this set? The expander die is the important one. Also what brand of dies are you using?

[williamwaco]

I pulled the bullets and it seems that my bullet-seater die reduces the diameter of the bullet from .3575 to .3557- AND this is not even using the FDC die!

.

Sabre,

You are trying to fit ten pounds of mud into a five pound sack.

Your 9mm cases look like cylinders on the outside but they are tapered on the inside. The case walls get thicker toward the base. I pulled out three fired 9mm cases. ( Not resized ) I also use your 158 gr swc ( but not in the 9mm ) If I measure the diameter of the inside of the fired cases, it averages .356 to .357.

BUT, at the depth to which your bullet is seated, judging by your photo, they measured from .349 to .352 inside diameter. And that is before resizing. In essence your cartidge case is acting as a sizing die. There is no way this is going to work.

If you are determined to try it, use loading data for the 147 gr bullet and reduce it about 25%. I expect that at that level it will not cycle the slide. Then increase it one tenth gr at a time until it cycles the slide. This will be your starting point.

[longbow]

While I have nothing to offer regarding reloading for 9mm or handgun in general I would like to say welcome and terrific post.

You have included all sorts of useful information that is often neglected. You are asking the right questions and providing people with the info they need to help, and very well laid out at that.

I hope you get the answers you need and I am sure you will. There are many knowledgeable people here that are willing to help.

Longbow

[sabrecross03]

I appreciate all of the timely feedback from everyone! I am using the Lee 9mm Luger deluxe pistol 4 die set. Williamwaco & 462, I think you hit my problem on the money (well, one of them :) ). I wondered if my cartridges were acting as a seating die...or if somehow my seating die was swaging the bullet. I'm not going to take the chance of blowing up my pistol (or me) with the .358-158 bullets. I guess I'll need to start saving my pennies and buy a different brand die set.

[Bret4207]

I agree with Longbow, great post. Very well done! And welcome aboard!

I think your answer is a different mould. I'm not a big 9mm fan, but considering the design you're trying to use, the 358-158, is just too long for the 9, I'd go with a different mould that drops a larger boolit. An M die may also help and you are seeing first hand the effects of "case swage", something it took us a long time to discover. A shorter design of 120-130 grs will make your life a whole lot easier.

[sabrecross03]

Thanks Bret4207. I think my first step is to begin researching other 9mm carbide die sets because no matter what size bullet I begin with they seem to get swaged down to .354-355 which is too small for my .3567 barrel.

[runfiveslittlegirl]

the expander and case selection will allow you to get what you want.
be very careful with the heavier boolits as there really is no data out there for anything over 146 gr.
i HAD a taurus pt-92 that was giving me similar problems and it liked heavier boolits so decided on the swc route but ended up cutting my loads in half of what a 124 gr boolit used..
the load was in the 2 gr range....
to make things work better for me i went with a slow for caliber powder, no crimp,and the thinnest cases i could find in my pile of mixed brands. i used the expander from my 38 set, and didn't try to crimp.
then worked up from 1.5 grs [a single shot at this point]

[Iron Mike Golf]

I use a Lyman powder through Multi-Expander (M-die) and RCBS sizing, seating, and taper crimp dies. My alloy is 92-4-4, water cooled. My barrel slugged at .3555.

My mold is a SAECO 383 (140 gr TC). It drops at .3565. My sizing die is a .357, so only a few spots get hit. Just pulled a boolit and it mikes at .3565.

My gun is an SR9c and I just started trying lead loads in it last week. Getting real good accuracy with this boolit over 4.8 gr HS-6 with a faint lead wash left in the bore.

[sabrecross03]

runfiveslittlegirl, What do you think the implication is for shooting a heavy bullet (157.5 gr) out of a 9mm? Goes to you original statement about the lack of load data...I've noticed the same thing.

Jailer & Iron Mike Golf, I'm doing something similar. If I use my Speer brass, my 38/357 dies (minus the 38/357 powder-through-die), my 9mm powder-through-die then I get the following results:

Top of the bands- . 35805
Middle of bands- .35675
bottom of bands (near the base of bullet) .3566
In theory it seems to work with a minimum FCD...

This is also working when I use FC Brass. Not so much with Winchester or PMC brass.

[sabrecross03]

I loaded and shot 25 rounds of 9mm with the TL .358-158 SWC bullets. In the attached picture, the head shots are from my M&P 9c and the body shots are from my M&P 45- 45ACP, TL .452-200 SWC bullets.

9mm LOADS:

15 rounds with:
Lee TL .358-158 SWC, avg weight- 155.7 gr, avg diameter- .3579
Power Pistol, 2.5 gr
CCI 500
Speer cases, .749-.754 length
OAL: 1.009

RESULTS: rounds had difficulty ejecting, a lot of smoke, accurate

10 rounds with:
Lee TL .358-158 SWC, avg weight- 155.7 gr, avg diameter- .3579
Power Pistol, 2.9-3.0 gr
CCI 500
Speer cases, .749-.754 length
OAL: 1.009

RESULTS: Rounds ejected fine, no jamming, less smoke, accurate

I inspected the cases and there are no signs of extreme pressure. The spent primers look fine and there is no discoloring or cracks on the spent cases. Next time I'll try 3.2 grains of Power pistol.

[leftiye]

Try fitting the cartridges to max overall length that will fit your chambers - use the barrel/chamber as a gauge and lengthen the ctgs. to seat your boolits into the lands with max length to fit in the chamber. Use the barrel hood as a length gauge. Then try them to be sure that they will go in the magazine and feed: and for feeding and cycling into the chamber.

With such heavy boolits you have very limited powder space. This will help you to produce more powerful loads as you will be able with longer length to increase powder charges.

[sabrecross03]

1.009 is the max that will chamber and cycle in my M&P 9c. I used the barrel hood as a reference point.


Try fitting the cartridges to max overall length that will fit your chambers - use the barrel/chamber as a gauge and lengthen the ctgs. to seat your boolits into the lands with max length to fit in the chamber. Use the barrel hood as a length gauge. Then try them to be sure that they will go in the magazine and feed: and for feeding and cycling into the chamber.

With such heavy boolits you have very limited powder space. This will help you to produce more powerful loads as you will be able with longer length to increase powder charges.

[sabrecross03]

Well, I went to the range yesterday and I shot 70 more test rounds using Power Pistol, 3.0-3.2 grains. This is going to be my new target load as it is extremely accurate, no leading, no jams, quick follow-up target aquisition.