Reloading Steel Casings...

[UtopiaTexasG19]

No, I am absolutely not intending on reloading any steel casings but am curious so I thought I'd ask the question. I assume since steel is not as malable as brass it eventually work hardens, cracks then breaks. What area of a steel casing would wear out first and what might happen? Thanks.....

[Ickisrulz]

There's an article floating around the internet where a guy reloaded some steel 223 and was able to make it work.

I think it would put extra stress on your press and dies.

I'm not sure what caliber you have in mind. Ranges are full of pick-up brass or you can order once fired stuff fairly cheap. I personally don't think it would be worth the effort.

[fryboy]

some are reloadable ... the wisdom of it is where it deviates , one can not state where any case will fail - or when , my crystal ball is so ummm clear that i cant seem to find it :P there's also a couple other things in play , one of them is the coating ( be it lacquer , vinyl, copper wash etc etc ) this acts as a lube since steel is also a bit harder than brass after the first shot it tends to deteriorate rather quickly and tumbling it hastens this , there were many many materials tried for cases , reloadable cases seem to work best with about 70% copper and the remainder zinc ( that's the common cartridge brass alloy btw ) it's not because folks havent thought outside the box but it is hard to argue with what works so well and reasonably cheap , and if you dont think brass is reasonably cheap compare it to your loss of life or limb or those around you , the best way to use a steel case again is to melt it down and start fresh IMHO

[BigRix]

I tried it and got a little unexpected discussion going in this thread.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=126341&highlight=steel+case

I have not fired them yet but I expect good results in my 625 revolver.

[Lizard333]

Steal doesn't react the same as brass when reloaded. I have a buddy that reloads his steel cases once, and only once. More than that and he says that he has to many problems. These include brass that no longer holds the boolit well, and primer pockets that are loose. Why bother?? You can readily find range brass or purchase it cheap and know you have a reliable product. You'll find many people don't bother with the hassle.

[odfairfaxsub]

i do it fine once or twice and leave it

[mpmarty]

I use a magnet to find and discard steel cases when I find them. Too hard on dies and not maleable enough to obturate properly

[JohnH]

I ran a test of the Wolf 45 Boxer primed cases to see what I'd get. I loaded the cases using the Lee 230 TL boolit and 4 grains of Green Dot. Fired the loads in my Rock Island. I loaded the cases ten times with nary a problem. No split cases, no case growth, no primer pocket problems, nada. The load shot quite well at 12 yards and funtion was perfect. I did nothing special to the cases as far as lubing them etc when reloading them. I also didn't do any tumbling (an over-rated exercise, I regularly shoot 45 brass to failure without tumbling) or such either, fire 'em, process em, shoot 'em again.

Steel is not like brass or aluminum in that so long as the elastic limit is not exceeded, it will expand and contract (read bend) indefinately. Brass and aluminum both work harden, and with each cycle the elastic limit is lowered. This is why brass fails.

Think also about how soft the steel must be to be drawn in the same processes as are brass cases and one begins to realize that steel cases offer an exellent option to reloaders. Assuredly, no data exists designed around the reloading of steel cases, but where volume is equal, I see no reason to treat the loading differently, pressure is a function of case volumn and bullet weight. Yes I stayed on the mild side of the load in my experiment, nothing wrong with erring on the side of caution. But I'd have no problem with loading steel up to full pressure. The primary reasons we dont see it used by the major makers here are storage problems, and customer perception. Most people associate steel cases with cheap military ammo. Yes, steel is cheaper than brass, simple economics. But that does not make it inferior in function.

The real problem is getting to the range before the rain and range trolls take thier toll.

[felix]

Excellent post, JohnH. I have loaded those ACP cases with full loads for many, many rounds. The primer pockets will expand but never enough to matter before the case is lost in the weeds or rust prohibits their reuse. ... felix

[moses]

I too have been reloading the wold steel case 45 acp and have had zero problems!

Probably have 3 or 4 reloads so far.

I love it because everyone else throws them away or leaves them on the ground so as long as you get them before the rust your GTG!!!!

Also this reminds me of people who talk about not shooting bullets that attract a magnet through there rifles because it will wear out their barrel quicker.
The steel used for cases and jackets on FMJ bullets is a very mild steel, a guy on the FALFILES forum did a hardness test on a steel jacketed FMJ bullet and a standard copper covered bullet and the steel was actually softer on the hardness scale than the copper.

So don't think just because it's steel it's gonna where your gun out quicker, or break extractors or ejectors.

[badbob454]

moses good to know i didnt think steel would (could) be softer than copper ,interesting ....

[MikeS]

Don't forget, just like we can cast boolits that are either very soft (pure lead), or very hard (linotype), they're all still called lead, the same holds true for steel, there is very low carbon very soft steel, then there's very hard steel, but they're all called steel. I've reloaded steel 45ACP cases, and they shoot the same as brass cases. I also have almost 500 rounds of steel cased 7.62x39 that even tho they're berdan primed, I plan on reloading them! The thought that steel cases and/or berdan primed cases can't be reloaded is just another myth that's not based on reality.

[XWrench3]

i have done it a few times, just to see if it was reasonably possible. in straight walled pistol cases, i have loaded a few of them 5 times without incident. on 223 rounds, i only did that once. while it did work once, i have so much brass, that i did not want to put the soft steel dies under that much punishment over and over. once was enough. i know that if i had to, i could do it. the pistol dies are carbide, and i do not worry about them.

[lavenatti]

All the steel I've reloaded had a laquer or polymer coating.

I don't worry much about damaging my dies because the steel case never actually contacts them. I've also never noticed any "force required" difference when resizing steel.

I toss any rusty stuff.

[Poygan]

Regarding the thread BigRix refers to: after the fifth firing, the Wolf cases were getting somewhat harder to extract from the Ruger Blackhawk. Of six cases reloaded, one finally split. Of the twelve CCI aluminum cases, two had split this time. End of the experiment.

[mdi]

Don't forget, just like we can cast boolits that are either very soft (pure lead), or very hard (linotype), they're all still called lead, the same holds true for steel, there is very low carbon very soft steel, then there's very hard steel, but they're all called steel. I've reloaded steel 45ACP cases, and they shoot the same as brass cases. I also have almost 500 rounds of steel cased 7.62x39 that even tho they're berdan primed, I plan on reloading them! The thought that steel cases and/or berdan primed cases can't be reloaded is just another myth that's not based on reality.

I don't think any experienced reloader will say positively that steel cases can't be reloaded, it's just is it worth the trouble when brass is so readily available. I've never heard of any documented reports of one wearing out a sizing die reloading steel cases, nor have I heard any reliable info about confirmed damage to any gun shooting reloaded steel cased ammo. So, I feel it's up to the individual if he wants to try reloading steel cases, just be aware of the shortcomings (work hardening, low case life). As for Berdan primers, I may have tried it if primers were available and the process weren't more difficult to do. The only tools/processes I've seen to deprime a Berdan case is labor intensive (can't pop them out during resizing) and the hydraulic method is messy.

[Rocky Raab]

It might be possible. It might even be feasible. I'll let you know when there isn't a single brass case available on earth.

[theperfessor]

The only time I would bother with steel or aluminum cases would be (1) no brass cases available or (2) couldn't pick up brass after shooting (a match, on the water, etc.)

Otherwise no, but that's just me. Others are welcome to do as they see fit.

[MtGun44]

I occasionally run into a Wolf .45 ACP case and used to cull them out. Finally missed one
and noticed it sizing harder in the Dillon 550. Pulled it out and was surprised to find that
it was boxer primed and had sized OK, so I loaded it and kept it separate. Tested it and
it worked OK. So, I don't cull them any more, but probably only have one in 300 cases,
no problems except a bit more grunt on the Dillon handle.

No problems, not too worried about doing any sort of official testing, the seem OK for a
loading or two in a low pressure case like .45 ACP. Beyond that, I have no idea.

Bill

[W.R.Buchanan]

I can see how .45 ACP cases would reload just fine, and just because your using a carbide die doesn't mean you can't use some case lube too.

In bottleneck cases if you only resize the necks I dont' see too much wear to the sizing die. If you have to Full length size and set the shoulder back very much then there could be some issues with die wear over time. But I also don't see steel cases fireforming to chambers nearly as much as brass ones do, so maybe you don't need to full length size.

Despite what others have said, as a machinist for the last 30 years, I'm pretty sure that copper is softer than even the softest steel, and 1018 CRS is the softest steel.

Copper can be more abrasive than steel, but that's not because of the hardness. The bronze age was only in place becasue they didn't have steel, once they got steel the bronze age was over and then was only used for things they needed to cast and that was only becasue they hadn't figured out how to cast steel.

The Russians use steel for cases for only one reason. It's cheaper than brass. Little kids in Pakistan reload the stuff every day. I bet not many get reloaded more than once.

Knowing that you can do it if you have to is a good thing. If the guys behind the "Occupy Wall Street" thing get their way, you might need to.

Actually doing it routinely just because you can, doesn't take into account the long term damage being done to the gun. UNless you can come up with some way to keep the coating clean and in tact on steel cases it will eventually have a negative effect of the chamber of a gun. That coating also gets charged with dirt which you can't just remove by wiping, and that will wear thigns also.

You've got to know that over the long haul it is going to wear a guns internal parts and chamber faster than brass does.

It might work in an AK forever, but who cares? AK's are AK's and they were made to shoot that stuff.? Most guns don't have hard chromed chambers and bores. I don't own any that do.

Randy

[GaryM]

I have reloaded steel .223 cases. Just run them through like brass cases and it works fine.

[Twmaster]

Just for giggles and grins I have reloaded steel and aluminum 9MM cases. It was a fun exercise. Folks that say you can't reload steel are flat out wrong. Just like the folks who say you cannot reload berdan primed cases.

About the only steel cases I can see me ever reloading to actually shoot would be Czech 7.62x45. One day I -will- own a VZ52.

[Single Six]

I've reloaded some in .45, no problems, emailed Tula and they said it's OK to do, just a bit difficult, harder on equipment. Carbide dies will not wear out. Handy to be able to pick up your "brass" with a magnet.

Not too sure about rifle cases...

[azrednek]

Back in the early 70's when US GI surplus ammo was cheap. I bought 1,000 steel WW2 era US GI 45 ACP ammo. I reloaded all of it at least once but the case life was short. By the second loading I started removing plenty of cases with splits, cracks or loose primer pockets. The mirror type finish on the inside of my steel resizing die eventually wore off. I began having problems with sticky cases. I tore the rim off of a few and had to remove the steel cases from the sizing die the hard way.

Yes, it can be done but I'd advise against it especially if you're using a steel sizing die. My steel cases were long gone by the time I got a carbide sizer. The day may come in the near future when steel is as abundant as brass and we don't have a choice. In the meantime though as far as I'm concerned reloading steel is more trouble than it is really worth.

[Bullet Caster]

Very interesting post. I was under the impression that steel could NOT be reloaded, but it appears that some have had no problems and some a few minor problems that could be weeded out with visual quality control. Now I'd like to know how to reload berdan primed cases. I have an AK-47 and I have a lot of brass berdan primed cases. These are the ones with the corrosive primers and 123 grain bullet--I think they're the Yugo type. I always save my brass (and steel now) but they are all berdan primed and I thought they were pretty much useless (only saved the brass ones for selling for the brass content). If someone knows how to reload berdan primed cases, esp. brass, please pm me as I would like to know how this is done. I've seen the water (hydro) method of depriming berdan primed cases but this seems quite labor intensive not to mention messy. BC

[Twmaster]

The hardest part of reloading Berdan cases is getting the primers. DAGAmmo has them. They run $150-$200 shipped for 5000.

I use a sharp punch to poke a hole in the spent primer near the rim and just lever it out. Then I just carefully seat the new primer.

Another issue to deal with is the large variety of sizes with Berdan primers. It's gets kinda goofy to follow. For example the .217" diameter primers found in a lot of European military brass and modern made 7.62x39 are not the same. The 7.62 is shorter. Recenly I decapped a pile of 8MM brass and a handful of steel case 7.62

Most of the primers out of the 8MM brass were .115" deep. Most out of the AK ammo was .088" deep.

I reload my 8MM Berdan brass. I still have about 450 new primers left. Once exhausted I'll likely not bother as hard to get and spendy as the primers are.

[azrednek]

Bullet Caster if you are fortunate enough to locate Berdan primers once you see the cost I can assure you, you will lose interest. Another problem is Berdan primers are not standardized like Boxer types, ie small pistol, LP, SR and LR With Berdan primers not only do you have to get the correct circumference you have to locate the correct depth.

Some reloaders shooting some of the British X-press type Berdan primed cartridges will reload them because of the scarcity of brass and the ridicules price of ammo. With 762X39 each country may use its own primer design making locating the correct size difficult if not impossible to locate if you are fortunate enough to locate a source. Boxer primers will not work in a Berdan primer pocket.

[Bullet Caster]

I certainly appreciate all the info posted hereon. I was curious about berdan primers and you probably have already made up my mind for me. I would think that berdan primers would be higher in cost than boxer primers because they have to include the anvil in the primer, whereas the boxer primed cases use the case's internal anvil. Well, then, back to the drawing board. I just hate to see all those brass berdan primed cases go to waste. Maybe I can sell them for scrap brass along with other brass cases that I do not use. I've noticed that any brass supplier who allows you to return brass for a small credit, does not want .22 brass. Why, I do not know. To me it looks like brass would be brass and if reclaimed it wouldn't matter as long as all the steel & aluminum cases were removed before submitting the brass for reclamation. Thanks. BC

[Twmaster]

You have it backwards. Berdan has the anvil in the case. Boxer primers contain the anvil.

Otherwise that's about the size of it.

The companies that allow you to return brass for a credit are not typically buying that brass back as scrap. They are sold to reloaders.

It's only economical for me to reload Berdan cases as I bought my primers as surplus for less than $2 per 100.

I also have a procedure to convert Berdan cases to Boxer. Before some of you start with the 'oh why bother' routine, I did it for a few reasons. 1. I like tinkering. 2. I learned a new thing. 3. Some of us shoot cartridges that are super spendy or very difficult to get. 4. Some of us are broke.

Now that I have a hundred or so 8x57 Boxer cases I'll not bother with converting the Berdan cases to boxer. I'll use the Berdan primers I have. Once exhausted I'll reconsider.

I'd not bother with the 7.62x39 unless you have an inexpensive source for suitable Berdan primers.

[Reload3006]

+1 with Twmaster it can be done I've done it. I have since concluded it is not worth it but if I had a rare case that was hard to come by I would. I started reloading 7.62x54r because in the late 80z and early 90z you cold buy norma if you wanted to spend $60 a box ... LOL I only paid 54 dollars for my Mosin I was not about to pay that for the ammo. I ran across some mil surp bought it and reloaded a lot of it ... I dont bother now because its plentiful but back then it was not.

[fredj338]

Steal doesn't react the same as brass when reloaded. I have a buddy that reloads his steel cases once, and only once. More than that and he says that he has to many problems. These include brass that no longer holds the boolit well, and primer pockets that are loose. Why bother?? You can readily find range brass or purchase it cheap and know you have a reliable product. You'll find many people don't bother with the hassle.
My experience as well. I will load steel cases once then leave them lay. Mostly for lost brass IDPA matches. The results are as good as multiple reloaded brass cases as far as accuracy & vel. They are hard on the dies, so I tumble them clean & then use Hornady OneShot on them even though I am using carbide dies. All this is assuming boxer primed cases. The effort to reload berdan & the cost is just not worth it.

[Single Six]

Wunder if steel could be loaded to higher pressures....?

[azrednek]

Wunder if steel could be loaded to higher pressures....?

Maybe the cartridge can but what about your gun? Will your gun withstand higher pressure?

[Janoosh]

I am reloading Wolf steel 223 cases as a personal test, with j-word bullets. Boxer primed. They seem to have a polymer coating on the case. I don't remove this coating. I am using a box of 20 as a test case (because I can and also like to tinker) in a break open firearm. A Baikal over-under shotgun rifle. Using starting loads of H335 and 40 grain Speer bullets. I have experienced 3 split necks over 6 loadings. No loose primer pockets. Lee dies and full length sizing, FCD, the 1st 3 loadings and Hornady Universal neck sizing the last 3 sizings. Now increased 1 1/2 grains over staring load. I havn't cast any 22 boolits to use as of yet and the inside of the neck is rough and will need some work.
We, as a family, experiment and pass on information that all can use or merely consider. Is reloading steel for everyone? Not at all! Can it be done, by all means, yes.

[Linstrum]

I have been reloading both steel and aluminum cartridge casings ever since they started being made using Boxer primer pockets. I have reloaded 9mm Luger, .45 ACP, .223 Rem, and 7.62x39. I am probably up around five reloadings in both steel .223 Rem and aluminum .45 ACP. The aluminum cartridges I am leery of because in my years of experience as a machinist I have found a few aluminum alloys that are really finicky when it comes to fatigue cracking. The aluminum alloy I would imagine is used is the same manganese-doped alloy used for making aluminum foil since the rolling action used for making foil requires the same extreme fatigue resistance needed for drawing cartridges. I would imagine that the steel used for cartridges is extremely pure with an attempt made to get all the carbon out to improve drawing characteristics, and as such the soft iron is quite resistant to fatigue.

With approximately five loading and firing cycles I have never had a case failure (such as the primer pocket not holding the primer, or loss of neck tension to hold the projectile) with steel and aluminum and I will continue reloading steel and aluminum cases, but with aluminum cases just a few times because I do not have any feel for the fatigue resistance of the Al alloy that is used.

Kind of interesting, I have reloaded one particular 1939-dated Finland 7.62x53R brass cartridge (same as the Russian 7.62x54R cartridge) 55 times without any problems. The load I used was 4 grains Unique pushing a 45 grain round ball.

rl 1022

[Janoosh]

Did you find the inside of the case neck rough? On the Wolf 223 cases I use, the inside of the neck is not as smooth as brass casings and I wonder if it will effect boolit performance when I start using a cast boolit.
A round ball? Interesting! What size, may I ask? Crimp, in a steel case? Problems incurred?
Apologies for going off topic but ever since I read Larry Gibson's thread on pistol boolits in rifle cases, a less expensive way of plinking has me all caught up in round ball shooting at 50yds.

[Single Six]

Maybe the cartridge can but what about your gun? Will your gun withstand higher pressure?


Of course, it's a Colt. :bigsmyl2: I was really just wondering but got curious and measured the wall thickness and the steel is actually a couple thou thicker than brass. Interesting...

One thing I have learned with steel is polymer good, lacquer bad. I've used Russian steel for throwaway shooting in competition indoors. Too much shooting too fast with the Wolf lacquer (green) and it melts, goobers up the chamber, and won't extract. No problems with poly Wolf (gray). Some silicone or graphite spray lube *might?* be a good idea, after a fer reloads and the poly starts to wear off, I don't really know.

'Course, these guys are selling steel, but intesting nonetheless

http://www.barnaul.co.nz/index.php?page=why-steel (http://www.barnaul.co.nz/index.php?page=why-steel)

[Twmaster]

Wunder if steel could be loaded to higher pressures....?

Seems to me you'd end up blowing out primers before either case would fail.

[Reg]

Have loaded the Wolf and some WW-2 steel cases. Don't know how many times each but a few. At this point can't seem to tell much different at least with the Wolf. The WW-2 cases may have taken a bit more sizing pressure but little more.

[smilie=f:

[Linstrum]

Hey, Janoosh, yes, the .223 Rem steel cartridges seem to be a little rough inside the necks, but I don't reload cast in .223 yet.

The round balls I use in both .30 and .31 caliber rifles is a 0.3125" or 5/16" round ball that weighs 45 or 46 grains. I don't worry about shooting a 0.3125" round ball in a 0.308" bore, the amount of ball that is excess is actually quite small in a ball shape. To load balls I don't run the cases through a sizing die if they are going back in the same rifle they were fired in. I push the ball in just past the equator so a little less than half the ball is sticking out. I suppose you could push the ball all the way in the neck so none is sticking out the mouth, but it just doesn't seem to matter. In round ball loads it is real easy to use too much powder, I use 4 grains and less in my .30s and .31s. I like Unique, but Red Dot, Green Dot, 700X, Bullseye, and other fast pistol/shot shell powders will work fine. The point of aim-point of impact with a ball will be different from using a large conical boolit. I use a spot of white out on the rear sight instead of moving the sight over and then sighting in the rifle all over. Just easier and faster to use a spot of white paint. I seem to recall that the spot for shooting round balls on the rear sight is to the left of the notch, but don't quote me.

Have fun!

rl 1023

[Janoosh]

Thanks Linstrum. It's all fun including the learning curve! As a "Certified Range Rat" I have at my disposal all types of brass and steel casings. I'm the guy that "volunteered" to clean up. Wink, wink! I'd like to try berdan primed, 7.62 x 54, steel "Silver Bear/ Golden Bear cases next. They are well made and not as rough inside as standard milsurp ammo.
I'm using Larry Gibson's advice on small pistol boolits (32 swc) in my FR7 and Finn 39 to a good effect at 50yds and now wiil try a round ball. I've got plenty of those moulds.

[contender1]

I know of one guy who keeps and reloads steel cases. Most of us prefer to stick with brass cases. I think that the steel ones can cause wear issues with dies eventually.

[fredj338]

I have been reloading both steel and aluminum cartridge casings ever since they started being made using Boxer primer pockets. I have reloaded 9mm Luger, .45 ACP, .223 Rem, and 7.62x39. I am probably up around five reloadings in both steel .223 Rem and aluminum .45 ACP. The aluminum cartridges I am leery of because in my years of experience as a machinist I have found a few aluminum alloys that are really finicky when it comes to fatigue cracking. rl 1022

Do you test your laods over a chronograph? I found alum cases for the 45acp were just all over the place for neck tension. My ES were in the 120fps range,, that loading once fired! Nope, the alum cases are pure **** for reloading in anything but a SHTF scenario IMO. Steel cases, a bit better, but still not as ductile as brass & certainly harder on my equip.

[DLCTEX]

I would use a Lee collet neck sizing die to reload bottleneck cases, IF I were going to do it.

[Janoosh]

I'm reloading Wolf, boxer primed, polymer coated, 223 cases. Lube as if brass. I'm using a Hornady Universal 22 neck sizer. Tried Lee Collet,there was resistance to sizing. No problem with Hornady. The problems I encountered are that the inside of the neck is coarse or rough. I believe it would need to be polished for a cast boolit. Just a test on my part, so I know it can be done.

[Infidel]

Interesting thread! Before I knew that Castboolits existed, I reloaded a few aluminum cases a year ago and they worked fine in my 1911. I kept looking at those aluminum cases with the boxers in them and thought "What the heck?" Now I'm finding out that some of you are reloading steel. I thought it was all berdan primed. Had no idea some was boxer primed.
On the berdans, I didn't know about the different depths. I guess if we get into a SHTF situation, you could reload them, but if primers are a pain to get now....I think I'll have to go dig out my bow and arrows.

[MikeS]

Lately I've been thinking that the ultimate SHTF rifle would be one of the 'modern' (that is made from Stainless Steel, and a polymer stock) 50 cal flintlocks. By having one of those in my supplies for SHTF I will be able to shoot long after all the primers & smokeless powder have all dried up. While not many folks make their own black powder, it IS something that is doable, and it's ingredients shouldn't be too hard to find, and between the home made BP, and the home made cast boolits, it could still shoot for years, long after ammo for more modern guns are gone. Now I would still want some modern guns to use while ammo IS available, and keep the flinter as the firearm of last resort.

[Bwana]

Lately I've been thinking that the ultimate SHTF rifle would be one of the 'modern' (that is made from Stainless Steel, and a polymer stock) 50 cal flintlocks. By having one of those in my supplies for SHTF I will be able to shoot long after all the primers & smokeless powder have all dried up. While not many folks make their own black powder, it IS something that is doable, and it's ingredients shouldn't be too hard to find, and between the home made BP, and the home made cast boolits, it could still shoot for years, long after ammo for more modern guns are gone. Now I would still want some modern guns to use while ammo IS available, and keep the flinter as the firearm of last resort.

That is an interesting premise. I wonder how long it would take you, or anyone else, to aquire the material and make useful black powder. And no cheating. You would have to get the material from natural sources. Yes, it can be done; but, it's not easy. Of course you could lay in a supply of the ingredients to get you by; but, it would be interesting to see the time frame involved. I don't believe I've ever read anything over the last 45 years covering a "from scratch" black powder operation.

[Linstrum]

Some of the Renaissance fairs have displays about making black from scratch starting with fermented urine and rotted straw to make potassium nitrate.

During the Civil War, in the South it was common to collect urine to make domestic black powder because of the Union Blockade of the Southern States to shut off munitions from England and Mexico.

It isn't that hard to make, if people were doing it 750 years ago, it just ain't that hard!

rl 1062

[Jim]

PONI (http://www.amazon.com/Potassium-Nitrate-Pyrotechnics-Saltpeter-Fireworks/dp/B00355SFBS/ref=pd_sbs_indust_1/192-6534709-6429035)ain't hard to find, either. This is where I buy mine.

[jcwit]

I remember when I was a kid and helping Dad clean out the chicken house there was a white crystalline susbstance on the bottom. Was always told that was potassium nitrate.

[wills]

Early Western gunpowder was called "black powder" because it consisted of a finely ground charcoal base, mixed with sulfur and saltpeter (potassium nitrate). Saltpeter was the ingredient that was most difficult to obtain, and since it is the major ingredient in gunpowder best suited for military use, it was the supply of nitrate that became strategically important. By the end of the 1500s, the standard formula for military-grade gunpowder was saltpeter, sulfur, and charcoal dust in the ratio 6:1:1.

At this time, the only source of potassium nitrate was from rotting organic matter, especially rotting meat and urine. The saltpeter supplier would send out teams of collectors who would locate promising places to dig (abandoned privies and dungheaps) by tasting the soil before digging it out and carting it off to be boiled, strained and evaporated to produce saltpeter of the required purity. It is said that throughout Europe no privy, stable, or dovecote was safe from saltpeter collectors or "petermen".

The English set up a Parliamentary Commision in 1606 to look into abuses of property by petermen. However by 1624 King James I issued a proclamation complaining about citizens who were placing their selfish interest above that of their country by paving barns or putting down plank walkways, interfering with the accumulation and ripening of saltpeter in the dung and urine. Every kingdom was desperate for gunpowder, which probably accounts for the continuing use of swords, pikes, and bows, long after firearms had made them technically obsolete.

http://mygeologypage.ucdavis.edu/cowen/~gel115/115CH16fertilizer.html

[UtopiaTexasG19]

I have been in the nursery business for 40 years and buy potassium nitrate and flour of sulphur 1,000 pounds at a time. Little did I know I have 2/3rds of the formula in one of my barns! :)

[frkelly74]

Mammoth cave was a source of of saltpeter for a while. They dug out the bat leavings and it was used. This could be another new/old use for chickens.