Powder Column question

[guninhand]

The load is 23 grains 2400, 500 grain plain base boolit in a fireformed 45-70 case with no neck tension, cream of wheat filler, 0.06 in. thick veggie wad and a single newspaper wad. Arrangement options are;

1. boolit, veggie wad, CoW, newspaper wad, powder
2. boolit, veggie wad, CoW, powder
2. boolit, CoW, veggie wad, powder
3. boolit, CoW, newspaper wad, powder
4. boolit, Cow, powder

Which of the above sequences, if any, would be commonly accepted as the best arrangement? TIA.
(not concerned with newspaper wad over primer hole at this point in time)

[mpmarty]

What exactly are you trying to accomplish? My 45/70s work fine with nothing but powder under the boolit. That 23gr of 2400 works fine by itself with LP primers for me.

[guninhand]

There is no neck tension, so I need the cream of wheat to keep cartridge OAL the same. The use of a newspaper wad between the cream of wheat and powder might help with more consistant ignition of powder, i.e. no migrating or mixing of the granules. The veggie wad is to protect the plain boolit base from gas cutting. I use no neck tension with black powder and I want to get the same ballistics out of this load, i.e. 1300 ft/sec, as I do with my BP load.

I've just finished loading 20 each of the 1. and 3. and hope to shoot them tommorrow, I'm wondering if there is a consensus on what is most likely to give best accuracy.

[btroj]

Feeding a single shot or repeater? If a single shot then why not just use a filler like Dacron over the powder and leave the other stuff out?
Seems like a lot of work and junk to use for a simple load. I use plenty of 24 gr of 2400 with a 420 plain base all the time without a filler. I get around 1350 and good accuracy. Gas cutting is not even a question much less a problem.
As for the no neck tension I can see where the COW keeps from deep seating the bullet but what keeps it from being too long a cartridge?

[303Guy]

Here's a trick which might work for you.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-133F_edited.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-168F_edited.jpg This trick holds an under size neck to boolit just fine. It's paper hand towel which is soft and fluffy as you know. The fitting tool was necessary for the tiny hornet case I was using it in. I used the powder column to control seating depth (by pre-compressing it to the required depth).

On the filler question, you could try wheat bran, slightly compressed. It does seem to prevent gas cutting and powder migration/mixing.

You could also try larger boolits that are snug enough not to move too easily.

Do you let the rifling leade do the final seating depth/OAL?

[geargnasher]

Smokeless powder is a whole different ball of wax than BP. You might find your interests best served by sizing the case necks just enough to get .002" interference fit with the boolit and give it a slight crimp, then use a 3/4-grain tuft of Dacron fluffed-up to fill the space between the boolit base and the powder column, don't worry about migration, there will be very, very little even with 2400.

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

Smokeless powder is a whole different ball of wax than BP. You might find your interests best served by sizing the case necks just enough to get .002" interference fit with the boolit and give it a slight crimp, then use a 3/4-grain tuft of Dacron fluffed-up to fill the space between the boolit base and the powder column, don't worry about migration, there will be very, very little even with 2400.

Gear

+1.

Larry Gibson

[noylj]

I hope I'm not taking an elitist attitude, but why can't you size the neck enough to hold the bullet?
Are you attempting to fire unsized cases? Even then, you can size down the length of the case neck where the bullet will be seated.
I know many use CoW, but I have also read many stories of barrels being "ringed" and I would not use fillers.
Maybe you could try TrailBoss to fill the case (just don't compress it)?
I have wanted to get a .45-70 for years and don't expect to use any fillers unless I found a NEED to use them.

[guninhand]

Dang, too much rain to go to the range today.

btroj, I have tried this powder with neck tension and pillow stuffing. Not sure if it was dacron or some kind of polyester. The problem I found with that was getting consistant sized tufts of material from the big ball of stuffing. they would range between 1 and 3 grains weight. I also used a .06 wad with it and accuracy was bad, and getting a lot worse at longer ranges.

303guy, the bullet is already a snug slip fit, its just that it's not tight enough to ensure it will stay put, so it's not loose enough to use your solution, maybe, unless I got something thinner than a paper towel. It's something to think about.

geargnasher, I don't know why my failure using my "dacron" and neck tension. It may have been inconsistancies in tuft size. I used a Redding neck size only die and then reopened the neck with an expanding die from BACO that is marked 460/457. Using that system, 2400, no filler and 400gr Remington J-boolits I once shot a 5/8 inch 5 shot group at 100 yds at a competition. That's with peep sights on a Browning BPCR. My alloy is around 13-15 BHN.

noyjl, I have a friend using Trail Boss in the same set-up. He's getting good results but apparently the load maxes out between 1000 and 1050 fps. I want my smokeless load to mimick the speeds of my BP loads.

[Char-Gar]

Count me among those who do understand the purpose of your loading plan!

1. A charge of 23/2400 requires no filler, wads, COW or other such stuff, just neck size the case to hold the bullet and shoot.

2. Wads of any kind can be problematic, if there is even a smidgen of air under the bullet. The hot gases will force the wad to act like a piston that compresses the air, with the potential to damage the rifle.

3. COW or any natural material can take on moisture from the air and expand and/or harden into a plug. Not a good thing.

Like others I think you are mixing black powder reloading and smokeless powder reloading in your head. There are two very different things and not keeping them straight can cause real problems and even dangerous conditions for the rifle and shooter.

However it comes out, best of luck with your shooting.

[rockrat]

With my 45-70 and using 5744 powder I go--powder, wad, grits, boolit. Grits are coarser than COW and they don't seem to compact like COW. I compress the grits about .050-.100". Shoots very well in my trapdoor.

[geargnasher]

Dang, too much rain to go to the range today.

btroj, I have tried this powder with neck tension and pillow stuffing. Not sure if it was dacron or some kind of polyester. Dacron is DuPont's trade name for polyester fiberfill, same stuff. The problem I found with that was getting consistant sized tufts of material from the big ball of stuffing. they would range between 1 and 3 grains weight. This is WAY too much. Use your powder scale to get no more than .75 grain, and make them consistent. You'll get the hang of pulling consistent tufts after a while. Or, you can go buy some sheets of the stuff at the fabric store, get a half-yard or so of the 3/8"-thick stuff off of a roll. Cut it into squares with scissors, you'll be able to judge weight by the size of the square. It is imperative to "fluff" the Dacron in to a loose tuft and carefully poke it down in the case in a way that lets it expand to fill the space between the powder column and boolit base, plus a little bit. I like to have about 1/4" puffed up above where the boolit base will be when seated so that the seated boolit puts slight compression on the Dacron. The object is NOT to pack the Dacron in there tightly, but to fluff it up as much as possible. I also used a .06 wad with it and accuracy was bad, and getting a lot worse at longer ranges.

303guy, the bullet is already a snug slip fit, its just that it's not tight enough to ensure it will stay put, so it's not loose enough to use your solution, maybe, unless I got something thinner than a paper towel. It's something to think about. Neck tension and crimp can play an important role in the performance of smokeless powder, there needs to be a little resistance to get it to light properly and consistently.

geargnasher, I don't know why my failure using my "dacron" and neck tension. It may have been inconsistancies in tuft size. Very probably so. I used a Redding neck size only die and then reopened the neck with an expanding die from BACO that is marked 460/457. Using that system, 2400, no filler and 400gr Remington J-boolits I once shot a 5/8 inch 5 shot group at 100 yds at a competition. J-bullets react very differently than cast due to much higher engraving forces. That's with peep sights on a Browning BPCR. My alloy is around 13-15 BHN. Your cast boolit hardness sounds perfect, the question now is are your boolits the right size for your gun?

noyjl, I have a friend using Trail Boss in the same set-up. He's getting good results but apparently the load maxes out between 1000 and 1050 fps. I want my smokeless load to mimick the speeds of my BP loads.

Trail Boss might be more along the lines of what you want to use, or use Unique and skip the filler if you're wanting to stick with lower-velocity, target loads.

One tip: NEVER put a disc-type wad over the powder unless you're using a highly compacted load of dense filler like the cereal fillers or the ground poly fillers between the boolit base and over-powder wad.. This is where chamber ringing occurs, and Dacron gets a bad rap. IF the powder is held in a tight column and there is space between the boolit base and the fiber or card wad, the pressure will spike drastically when the powder slams into the stationary boolit base. Powder-wad-Dacron-boolit is a bad setup for the same reasons, IN THESE CASES THE BOOLIT ACTS AS A BARREL RESTRICTION. Use the Dacron without any other cards or wads unless they are firmly against the boolit base, let the Dacron fill the space with slight compression between the powder and the boolit base, that way the combustion pressure can "breathe" in the entire case space and not cause any pressure spikes.

Gear

[303Guy]

That was clearly put, Gear. :drinks:

I wonder if there is any relevance in my loading for my hornet - in using Lil'Gun the requirement is a good neck tension and a mild primer to get consistent powder burn. I use a mild small rifle primer - Federal - and a heavy boolit to get the consistent burn and it worked very well. The idea is to form enough resistance to initial expansion of the combustion volume to build up initial pressure.

[guninhand]

Thanks for all the input folks. I never thought of using the 2400 without wads or filler, I just assumed I would get leading at 1300fps. Even if there is some leading, it will likely be easy to remove. I've made sure all these loads with COW have no air.
Char-Gar's explaination seems very likely the reason for my past failure with dacron and wads, i.e. without the wads staying perfectly flush with the boolit base, uneven air compression against it.

[geargnasher]

You won't get leading in a 45/70 at 1300 fps as long as nothing is way out of balance with the load, or the boolit doesn't fit the barrel correctly.

Fit is the most important part, for smokeless I'd go at least a thouandth larger than groove diameter, and two or three thousandths larger than groove might be even better if your chamber can afford the clearance safely. Only your gun can tell you for sure.

Gear