Subsonic loads and the 45-70

[Gdbyrd]

Hey guys, I'm new here. I was suggested here by a guy over at Greybeard.

I had this idea of reloading one of my 45-70s with trailboss or unique, preferably in the 8-900 fps area, with a heavy grain pill. Someone suggested I strongly look into casting.

I think it's a great excuse to get into the hobby. I've looked over a lot of your stickies and I still have a lot of reading to do. Just wanted to start a post to get ideas on what all I will need to get...I need your suggestions here. I plan on casting only for this caliber right now. Someone said I should go almost pure lead, slightly overbore, and they said I should really try out about a 400 grner.

Is there anything out of the ordinary I need to account for in shooting at a lower velocity(what about in picking out equipment)? I'm doing this because I want something relatively quiet that I can plink with...plus it'd be something really different.

Thanks for your time.

[45-70 Ranger]

Welcome aboard!

Trail Boss is very bulky and thus is hard to get in trouble with. It fills the case and will not give you super velocity. A 405 gr. cast bullet will be easy to keep under 1120 fps, and thus will give your your subsonic load. New to loading, that choice, I feel, will give you the right tools to work with and not cause dangerous levels. One can easily overload a case like the 45-70 with fast burning pistol powder like Unique. A little goes a long way, but ONE doubble charge of it will put the chamber pressure well into the danger zone!

I strongly suggest that you get with a reloader that has some years under his/her belt and learn from them. Get yourself a couple of good reloading manuals like the Lyman and such. Tons of information in them and will give you a strong foundation to work from.

Read everything you can get your hands on about loading and learn as much as you can. As for myself, I've been reloading for well over 45 years and ALWAYS learn new things. No one out there knows it all. So go slow and get with an expirenced reloader and you'll do well. There are many highly skilled loaders on this forum that will be glad to assist. There is no such thing as a dumb question either.

Hope that points you in the right direction.

Wade

[Gdbyrd]

Hey! A fellow Texan. Hailing from the South here.

Thanks for the info on the unique. I've read a lot about it, and there's been some bad. I planned on using TB, but so many people swear by unique and the DOT powders for downloaded loads in the 45/70 I didn't want to leave any doors shut.

I should have clarified in my first post. I have some experience reloading. I've got a single stage press I've loaded a couple hundred shells of 44 mag and 460 S&W through. So as far as that xp and setup goes I think I'm ok. I've read though that there are different primer recommendations with these lower loads, which I don't know enough about.

There's also the casting, which I know nothing about :) The gun I plan on using is a NEF. They have a 1:20 twist rate.

Will the 400 grn boolit stabilize ok at those low speeds with that twist? Kinda wondering about that. Also, can you recommend me a specific mold? Just going to be goofing off shooting paper and steel plates.

Thanks again.

[Malcolm]

I use tb in my 45-70 21 grs fills the case . I use 16 grs behine a 350 gr bootlit I dont know the speed but it sure is easy on my old shoulder.

[JSnover]

Last summer I was working on that project. 45 grains of Goex FFFG, a 500 grain boolit with a 1/16 cork wad, 1/8" compression after drop tubing and setling. Very mild and easy to shoot. Didn't have time for a serious range session before packing everything up for the big move.
Before that I shot the same boolit over 22 gr of 4759. Also very mild.
Look for a BPCR group in your area. Those guys are doing exactly what you're asking about.

[btroj]

Trailboss is perfect for what you want to do. With a 420 using 14 gr of Trailboss or so it gives 1000 fps tops. Really mild recoil.

[rockrat]

Get ahold of Swede (Night Owl Enterprises) on this board and PM him to see if he has any moulds left in stock, that would work for you. You will not need a gas check boolit.

Another one is "Blammer". He had a group buy on a 405 gr mould designed for the Marlin, that might be what you want. PM him to see if there are any extras

Both great people to deal with

Trailboss should be just what you want to fuel your loads

[Sensai]

13 grains of Trail Boss under a Lee 405 grain hollow base boolit is my favorite plinking load. It averages 1046 out of my 26 inch Marlin 1895 Cowboy. Fun to shoot and easy on the shoulder.

As for getting started in casting, the major equipment items that you will need are a sturdy pot and a heat source. A lot of us use a dutch oven and a turkey fryer burner. You will also need a ladle and a mould for the boolit that you want to cast. You'll wind up getting more stuff, but that will get you started.

[45-70 Chevroner]

That 1in20 twist will stablize a 405 gr pill quite well, even at low velocity. I have not shot the NEF but know guys that do. They like the NEF but heavy or fast loads can be very hard on the shoulder. I use a lot of unique in my loads for my Pedersoli rolling block. I shoot several different boolit weights. The Lyman 300 gr. slug shoots very well out to a 100 yards but it's not a good choice for long range. The 405 is a good all around weight. I have not shoot any loads with less than 10 grs. of Unique. I like 13 grs. behind the 405 for about 1150 FPS nice easy load it gives a nice push. My Ped Rolling Block weighs around 9 pounds.
Oh and be sure to check out the Lee product line. My favorite boolite is a 500 grner double cavity. I use it for the long range 500 + yd cowboy shoot.

[45-70 Ranger]

Gdbyrd,

My only 45-70 I have left is a Marlin Guide Gun. Super little cannon. I have a hard time getting this one to shoot long projectiles well, but gave the 405 HB from Lee a try. No great results yet. But I have found that the Lee 340 RNPF with 15.7 gr of Trail Boss gives me one hole groups at 50 and opens up a might over an ince or so at 100. It's going right at 1150-1175. A tad over your subsonic needs. 14 gr or TB would slow it down to the speed you want. Now if you want to get a real easy shooter with Unique, I use 12.8 gr of Unique with the same 340 gr slug. Nice shooter. When I load that one, I check, and doubble check the level in every case. And I mean check it close. In all the years I've loaded for this big case, I've never had an overload as a result by being this cautious. As I stated earlier, with a big case like this, you can get into trouble easy.

Well, I'd better get back to work. Hope you find the right stuff you want to get started with and have fun!

Wade

[Old Caster]

If you are going to ladle cast for this bullet (which I think is a real good idea), you might consider a Waage pot. You can look them up on the web. They are just simple pots with a great thermostat that will give consistant temperatures. If you shoot any Black through your gun, stick with lead and tin only because when shooting bullets with antimony it is easy to get leading over fouling that is in your barrel and not get it out when you clean it. The next day it can already be rusty. I like to cast large bullets like this at 800 degrees and RCBS and Lyman won't go that hot. Lee will when it is new but to ladle pour out of these pots is a pain because the top of the pot is too small. I generally never go with less tin than a 40 to 1 mix of lead to tin and never use any with antimony. You can get antimony free lead buying scrap roof lead or plumbing pipes. They will have solder on the joints which will contain some tin. The best molds are from Paul Jones or Brooks and they are expensive and are always single cavity for the best uniformity. These guns are all made with different leade in the chamber and a mold with a custom bullet may be in order if you want optimum accuracy. If you want to do it the simple way and don't care about the best accuracy, get a Lee 4-20 pot, a Lee mold of any weight that you like and bottom pour with half wheel weights and half soft lead and don't shoot Black Powder. Using a stove is OK too but temperature is even harder to control, but will work. Don't melt any lead in an aluminum pot because it will wilt and possibly split. Have fun. -- Bill --

[dverna]

A "quite" 45/70?

Anyway, the one advantage of Trailboss is you can not double charge the case. Other than that I have no use for it as it is expensive and provides no performance advantages.

Double charges are caused by poor technique and carelessness. If using a single stage press, once the case is charged with powder DO NOT DO ANYTHING ELSE (do not put it in the loading block, do not get a drink, do not pet the dog, do not yell at the wife, do not yell at the dog, do not pet the wife etc) until you have seated the bullet. Once the bullet is seated, only an act of God can cause a double charge. Most of us have never had a double charge, most of us have loaded 100's of thousands of pistol rounds (that are easily double charged) and most of us have been doing this before Trailboss was invented.

Get the Lyman cast bullet manual. Equipment can be as fancy(expensive) or simple (cheap) as you make it. There will be little/no affect on the quality of your bullets. You are starting with a "forgiving" caliber and that helps. Safety stuff is important. Wear jeans and a long sleeve shirt. Real shoes or boots. Welders gloves. Safety glasses are a must and a face shield is better.

Don

[fredj338]

I used to shoot CAS matches w/ my 1886 & 350gr bullets o/ 8-9gr of Unique. I did use a Dacron o/ powder wad to keep the small charge in place, very accurate & no recoil in that heavy gun.

[shooter93]

I have shot bullets up to 550 grains out of a suppressed 45-70 at sub sonic velocities and have never found anything to out shoot unique. It wins by a wide margin including 300 yard accuracy.

[Catshooter]

Gdbyrd,

It was me that suggested you come over here . . . welcome! What's your location? I have to drive 450 miles north to get to the deep south.


Cat

[mpmarty]

+1 on Unique my 350gr Ranch Dog boolits do quite well with 15gr of it. I just ordered a conversion kit to 45/70 for my Dillon and will start out trying BLC-2 and the same boolit and if that doesnt light my fire I'll try H-335 and finally 3031.

[Gdbyrd]

Sorry, got a couple questions for you guys:


1. What's better to have? A cheap bottom poor or a normal electric pot and use a ladle?

2. Does the sizer matter? I'm going to use a Lee mold, so I will also be using a Lee sizer. I don't plan to slug the bore, was just going to buy a .452 diameter sizer. Is that alright? Or should I go for a slightly larger .454? Do I have to get anything specific based on the type of mold I'm using?

3. As far as donor lead goes...I've been suggested to go almost pure lead. For this can I use wheel weights? I was browsing the stickies about wheel weights and it looks like some of them are zinc and some are steel. If I just go for the "soft" ones, and smelt those down, will this suffice for the majority of this project?

4. Do I need a hardness testing kit?

Right now, with pot, mold, sizer, and lube..I'm looking at about 100$ shipped from midway using Lee stuff. Is this about right or are there deals to be had...or am I missing stuff?

[9.3X62AL]

The FIRST thing to do--and NOT overlook--is to slug the throat and grooves of your rifle. The SAAMI spec for the 45-70 bullet/boolit is .457", but I've never owned a 45-70 that small. My Ruger #1 is .459" throat and grooves, and my Trapdoor is .462". Two Marlin leverguns were in the .460" ballpark IIRC.

Once you know that CRITICAL dimension, obtain a mould that will cast a boolit of the proper diameter to fit your rifle, and whatever sizer it takes to match the rifle's throat--or maybe exceed it by .001"-.0015". Undersized boolits are only worthwhile if using black powder AND soft alloys like 40:1 or 30:1 lead/tin. Tri-metal (lead/tin/antimony) alloys launched by smokeless powder do a poor job of "bumping up" in my experience. If it happens at all, it's unreliable and unpredictable. Better to just remove the variable entirely.

1-20" rifling stabilizes 400 grain-class boolits very well in my #1 at 900-1000 FPS.

The 11th Commandment Of Cast Boolit Shooting--"IF IT DON'T FIT, IT WON'T SHOOT".

[Gdbyrd]

Gdbyrd,

It was me that suggested you come over here . . . welcome! What's your location? I have to drive 450 miles north to get to the deep south.


Cat

Thank you sir, it sure was :) What a wealth of information. Now I just have to fill up my cart on midway and save up some play money. I can't wait :)

I live in deep, deep south Texas. Harlingen-Mcallen area. People from out of state may know of Corpus Christi, that's about 2 hours north of me.

[badbob454]

If i want cheap plinking 45/70 low velocity loads use a 400-500 gr boolit on top of a full to 3/4 full case of surplus wc860 it still cheap and cannot be overloaded in most rifles esp straightwall cases a 3/4 load is @ 800 fps and a full load is @ 12oo fps ... A guess only as i have no chronograph ... The 45/70 is a fun to shoot rifle mine is a handi rifle and is a kick in the pants i can load easy to high velocitys and this gun will take it this can be loaded same as a ruger no 1 its that strong !

[badbob454]

sorry, got a couple questions for you guys:


1. What's better to have? A cheap bottom poor or a normal electric pot and use a ladle?

2. Does the sizer matter? I'm going to use a lee mold, so i will also be using a lee sizer. I don't plan to slug the bore, was just going to buy a .452 diameter sizer. Is that alright? Or should i go for a slightly larger .454? Do i have to get anything specific based on the type of mold i'm using?

3. As far as donor lead goes...i've been suggested to go almost pure lead. For this can i use wheel weights? I was browsing the stickies about wheel weights and it looks like some of them are zinc and some are steel. If i just go for the "soft" ones, and smelt those down, will this suffice for the majority of this project?

4. Do i need a hardness testing kit?

Right now, with pot, mold, sizer, and lube..i'm looking at about 100$ shipped from midway using lee stuff. Is this about right or are there deals to be had...or am i missing stuff?

answer 1. A bottom pour can be used as both...
2,a lee mold in 457 -459 will work as it does in my handi rifle i size to 459
3. Clip on lead wheel weights and stick on lead wheel weights only no zinc this will gum up the molds and will not cast nice boolits..
4. No i can use the scratch test if it scratches it good enough for your 45.70 . I would try to make all the lead mix consistent from pour to pour so results will be consistent i use clip on only for my 4570,
save the soft stick ons for later use , subsonic .223 loads . The lee tester can come later when you become addicted ..he he

[45-70 Chevroner]

As for me I like the bottom pour Lee 20 # pot. I know a lot of guys like to ladle pour but I have never had any problems even with the heavier, such as 500 or larger molds using a bottom pour pot. The amount of stream coming out is adjustable. As for quiet loads in a 45-70 I think you are fighting a losing battle. You could get a slug stuck in the barrel, not a big problem unless you don't know it's in there.
I use wheel weights all most for every thing except for black shooting. Just add a little tin to the WW to get the mold to fill out better. I use about 1 to 2 ounces per 20 # pot full.


.452 or .454 are both 45 colt and 45 ACP diameters. .457 and up are for the 45-70.

[JSnover]

The Lee 4-20 has been good to me for 500 grain 45-70 boolits.
Subsonic and quiet are two different things. I like a sharp report to let me know everything in the chamber is more or less normal. A pop or a poof makes me nervous.
Heavy boolits can be launched at low speeds in order to keep them out of the transonic range and to reduce punishment on your shoulder. An old timer told me "as long as they don't get stuck in the paper that's all the speed you need."

[mpmarty]

Sorry, got a couple questions for you guys:


1. What's better to have? A cheap bottom poor or a normal electric pot and use a ladle?
That is a matter of choice. I like and use a bottom pour.
2. Does the sizer matter? I'm going to use a Lee mold, so I will also be using a Lee sizer. I don't plan to slug the bore, was just going to buy a .452 diameter sizer. Is that alright? Or should I go for a slightly larger .454? Do I have to get anything specific based on the type of mold I'm using?
None of the above. You will need a boolit of .460 in the 4570
3. As far as donor lead goes...I've been suggested to go almost pure lead. For this can I use wheel weights? I was browsing the stickies about wheel weights and it looks like some of them are zinc and some are steel. If I just go for the "soft" ones, and smelt those down, will this suffice for the majority of this project?
Wheel weights are fine but are not soft nor pure lead. they are tri-metal and contain lead tin and antimony but you will need a bit more tin for fillout.
4. Do I need a hardness testing kit?
Not to start out but you may want one later.
Right now, with pot, mold, sizer, and lube..I'm looking at about 100$ shipped from midway using Lee stuff. Is this about right or are there deals to be had...or am I missing stuff?
You're in the ballpark and not overspending for what you need.

[Chicken Thief]

A charge of the fastest powder that'll do the job is to prefer.
That way the muzzle blast will be minimal.

I propel a 405gr Lee HB to 1100fps in a 10" barrel and with a muffler it will sound like a 22 short from a non silenced 22LR rifle. And 90% is noice from the boolit!!!

[Hang Fire]

If intent of whisper loads are intended for anything but punching paper and knocking over cans etc, IMO the 45-70 with soft heavy HP boolits is one of the better ones.

I have played around with 500 grain HP boolits and very light loads, but not Trail Boss yet. Even at 500 to 700 fps, that soft heavy boolit HP can be devastating, was surprised how much it expanded and blew up one gallon plastic jugs of water.

We made up a jig fixture for hollow pointing boolits in lathe, HP ran from small diameter up to large cup points.

[Catshooter]

Gdbyrd,

If you drive a slug down your rifle's bore and mail it to me I'll measure it for you. You don't want to try and measure with a caliper, it really needs a good micometer (a gentle touch helps too).

The .452 & .454 sizers are virtually guaranteed to be too dang small.

Let me know if you want help.


Cat

[W.R.Buchanan]

How come nobody mentioned 5744. This, from what I've heard, is what the cowboy group is using almost exclusively.

25 gr with the 400 gr boolit is producing 1100 ish FPS.

I'm about to load some of my new RCBS.45-330 FNGC's with a variety of charges from 25 to 35 gr of 5744 in search of the magic load for my Marlin. 25 gr should eb in the 1200 fps range and 35gr should be about 1550.

I'll let you know how it turns out.

Randy

[Nrut]

2. Does the sizer matter? I'm going to use a Lee mold, so I will also be using a Lee sizer. I don't plan to slug the bore, was just going to buy a .452 diameter sizer. Is that alright? Or should I go for a slightly larger .454? Do I have to get anything specific based on the type of mold I'm using?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Those sizers are for the .45 pistol bullets such as the .45 Colt, etc.
You'll most likely need at least a .459" to .460" sizer..
IIRC LEE only makes .457" so you will have to order a custom sizer and if that is the case then I would order one from Buckshot who is a member of this forum..

[JohnH]

at the risk of juming in on a thread I've only just read, and a conversation you are having off the board with another member...

As to sizing, you do not list how you will be lubing the boolits. I assume you will be using the Lee Liquid Alox Tumble Lube or similar tumbling method. if so, I'd suggest don't even bother with sizing. It is not a neccisary function.

[adrians]

im in the TRAILBOSS gang ,can't really go wrong with it for mild cowboy loads.
or you could go into "the 4th dimension "and use b/p, either way you will achieve 1000fps with no probs and no broken shoulder bones[smilie=l:
have a good -un.
adrians:twisted::coffee::evil:

[drinks]

I am from south of you, Hidalgo, but am in the piney woods now.
I shoot a lot of .45-70, Herco is the fastest thing I have tried, 4831 the slowest, most powders will work with a few tries and tests.
My aim has been to get good accuracy at 1200-1500 fps, the most consistently accurate bullet is the Lee 405gr HP, for ME and MY Handi, but I have used 180 to 515gr , with and without gcs, I use almost nothing but wws and use a good lube, LBT soft blue, Lar's red, and the old homemade 50-50 beeswax and peanut oil which is good for smokeless and BP.
In general, I would not size bullets, most are a bit small as cast, one reason the Lee HB works good, it will expand a bit at firing and take up some slack.
A bulky powder is a good idea, a double charge is bad business.
One thing to watch with low pressure loads is that the pressure is enough to expand the case to seal off the gasses so there is no leakage to the rear, the case should not show sooting , or very little.

[wmitty]

If you are interested in using the rifle while hunting, the 350 gr Ranch Dog is a gas-check design, but it is also designed to be tumble lubed. Might be worth considering.

Lived in Brownsville about 30 years ago. Folks there explained to me that anyone living north of Raymondville was a yankee. Living in the valley was as close to living in a foreign country as I've ever been. Great folks!