Cramer vs. solid, speedwise

[HDS]

I am wondering how much faster you can cast bullet with a solid mold compared to a cramer style mold, assuming you have flipped the pins so the cramer-style will cast solids too. Is there a noticeable difference then or is the cramer-style only slower when casting HP's?

I only got an RG4 mold myself and I do alright with it, got a cramer-style on the way for .45ACP currently, don't own no solid molds though and I am wondering if speed of casting is a factor or not.

Looking at the cleverness of the design and videos of people using a cramer-style molds, it seems really fast, faster than most people with solid blocks. Still I've read some say that solid molds are faster, so I wonder what the bottom line is on this.

[pdawg_shooter]

What is it with this need for speed? Folks must be able to afford to shoot way more than I can. I can cast enough bullets in 3 or 4 hours to last a year. Friend of mine bought a RCBS pot and a Lee 6 cavity mould a while back and now probably has in excess of 10,000 45 cal bullets ready to size and lube. He shoots his 45 maybe 200 rounds a year. My ladle and 2 hole moulds have kept up for me since I started casting in the 60s. I strive for quality over numbers. Competition shooters I can see, but all of them I know buy their bullets anyway.

[btroj]

I don't think the Cramer style is much slower. Main difference is the need to turn mould over to drop bullets off the pins. I can cast the HP fast enough to make it worth my time. I would estimate it takes 20% longer to empty the pot using the HP as opposed to the solid.
Key to any of the HP moulds is getting the mould and pins HOT. Keep the pins HOT and all is good.

[GLynn41]

The cramer style is no faster than a good solid for me but I am not a speed demon --for me the thing is for the same time used I get a big pile of .41 cal penta HPs

[theperfessor]

I did a HP Cramer style conversion to a two cavity Lyman 452374 a week or so back, posted the results here in Maintenance and Design. I cast a bunch of bullets two weeks prior to conversion in the same mold using the same alloy, then cast a bunch after the conversion. Once the pins got "seasoned" I couldn't tell much difference time-wise.

Btroj has it about right, a 20% longer cycle time is a reasonable figure. I still ended up with 400+ bullets in less than two hours once everything was warmed up.

[fishnbob]

The secret to time with a Cramer HP is to get the boolits to drop off the pins with out having to beat your dowel or mallet to splinters. Just remember, get that brass mould HOT and keep it HOT. When I get near the end of the pot, it starts dropping them faster. I think therefore I need a bigger pot than the 10 lb dripamatic. I have 2 that I probably should use together but I keep 1 full of PB for crappie jigs. Like I said, when I get down to about 2 lbs of ww's, they start raining out of the mould. That's when the mould handles are starting to get hot in your hands,and the boolit pile grows bigger. Bottom line, it will never be as fast as a solid!

[Iron Mike Golf]

I figure it takes me 5 extra seconds per cycle. That's pushing pins free and then pushing them back.

[cbrick]

I also agree with the "about 20%" longer with Cramer HP's as opposed to a solid nose but compare that with a conventional pin single cavity mold.


I think therefore I need a bigger pot than the 10 lb dripamatic.

I freely admit to being spoiled rotten with my Magma 40 pound pot. 40 pounds of a single, uniform alloy will spoil most people. I still have and use my RCBS 22 pound pot and keep my soft alloy in it but it's difficult to even think of only 22 pounds, I cannot even imagine a 10 pounder.

Rick

[HDS]

What is it with this need for speed? Folks must be able to afford to shoot way more than I can. I can cast enough bullets in 3 or 4 hours to last a year. Friend of mine bought a RCBS pot and a Lee 6 cavity mould a while back and now probably has in excess of 10,000 45 cal bullets ready to size and lube. He shoots his 45 maybe 200 rounds a year. My ladle and 2 hole moulds have kept up for me since I started casting in the 60s. I strive for quality over numbers. Competition shooters I can see, but all of them I know buy their bullets anyway.

It's mostly that I have a hard time seeing how the solids can be that much faster, the cramer system looks so clever that it seems it'd be just as good to me. The pins even help release the bullet from the mould when you push them.

[HDS]

The secret to time with a Cramer HP is to get the boolits to drop off the pins with out having to beat your dowel or mallet to splinters.

Funny, thats what I do with my NOE 429421, no matter how hot I seem to get it, the pins will often drop free (when using the flatnose pins) but the mold will not release them. I have real high hopes for Mihas H&G #68 and the cramer system.

[MikeS]

One of the OP's questions, and one I have too, that didn't get answered is this: If you have a cramer style mould with the pins set to cast a solid does the mould cast as fast as a solid version of the same boolit? In other words, I have a solid mould of the Mihec 200gr round nose flat point mould from the last group buy (the one that he's getting ready to send invoices for the HP versions), if I reverse the pins on the mould I haven't gotten yet will it cast at the same speed as the solid mould I already have? Off topic, but while mentioning this mould, when casting it from Lyman #2 alloy, would I be better off using the regular HP pins, or the penta-pins? Or am I just better off emptying out my pot, and using something like 20-1 lead/tin to cast those boolits?

Rick: We all know that when something is spoiled, that means it's not good anymore. So, to show you what a nice guy I am, to keep you from being spoiled, send that 40lb pot to me, and start using your 20lb pot so you can become 'good' again! :)

[thehouseproduct]

What is it with this need for speed? Folks must be able to afford to shoot way more than I can. I can cast enough bullets in 3 or 4 hours to last a year. Friend of mine bought a RCBS pot and a Lee 6 cavity mould a while back and now probably has in excess of 10,000 45 cal bullets ready to size and lube. He shoots his 45 maybe 200 rounds a year. My ladle and 2 hole moulds have kept up for me since I started casting in the 60s. I strive for quality over numbers. Competition shooters I can see, but all of them I know buy their bullets anyway.
For me, I use 6 cavity molds, progressive presses, lube dies, etc because I still work full time, I have a 6 month old son and a wife. I like to reload, but I need to get the most out of my time.

[GMT210]

MikeS and HDS,

A Cramer mold set to drop solids is slower than an equivalent solid mold. The solids seem to get hung up on the Cramer pins and do not drop as easily as the HP.

I have several of Mihec's mold and have not been able to get the Cramer Solids to drop as smooth as the Cramer HP's. It's not all bad, it gives me an excuse to buy solid companion molds to my cramer molds.

GMT210

[MikeS]

GMT210, that's what I did! I was just curious if I made the right choice by doing so. Thanks!

[HDS]

MikeS and HDS,

A Cramer mold set to drop solids is slower than an equivalent solid mold. The solids seem to get hung up on the Cramer pins and do not drop as easily as the HP.

I have several of Mihec's mold and have not been able to get the Cramer Solids to drop as smooth as the Cramer HP's. It's not all bad, it gives me an excuse to buy solid companion molds to my cramer molds.

GMT210

That is exactly the kind of info I was looking for.

[cbrick]

The solids seem to get hung up on the Cramer pins and do not drop as easily as the HP. GMT210

Hhmmm . . . I've not had that happen with my Miha's molds. A touch slower perhaps because I use a gloved finger to assure the pins are fully seated before closing the blocks (flat point or HP) but I've yet to have a flat point bullet hang up on the pin. Can't see how or why that would happen, maybe I'm just lucky.

Rick

[MikeS]

I wonder if the support pins had another cutout for the clips that would hold the HP pins in the closed position (for use only when casting solids) would speed up production any?

[GMT210]

I've watched it many times and there seems to be two main "failure to drop" modes"

1) The first is when the Pins stay back and the bullet is captured on two full sides, Mold Half and the solid pin Nose.

2) The second is when the pin moves to the open position and the bullet doesn't moveout of the mold half, it seems to get locked in place because the bullet nose gets trapped in the area between the pin and the mold and can't drop out.

The best scenario is when the mold is opened and both bullets are on the side opposite the pins, they will normally just fall out of the mold.

Just my observations

[HDS]

I wonder if the support pins had another cutout for the clips that would hold the HP pins in the closed position (for use only when casting solids) would speed up production any?

I was thinking about about just this how it could be modified to drop solids quicker...

I was thinking what if you threaded the pins where they are inserted through the mold?

Then you could screw on a nut from the other side and really get the pins firmly attached to the mold.

[Wayne Smith]

Like I said, when I get down to about 2 lbs of ww's, they start raining out of the mould. That's when the mould handles are starting to get hot in your hands,and the boolit pile grows bigger. Bottom line, it will never be as fast as a solid!

When you ae down to 2 lbs in the pot it is also hotter. Have you any idea of the temp of the melt at that point? Maybe you just need to heat things up a little.

[GLynn41]

about the question about the speed --the devastor hp at 214gr + is about 30-40 fps faster than the 225-226 solid-- From my Mihec mold .41 mold-- so for me there is really no difference

[olafhardt]

Idon't know what a cramer mold is, but I get my Lee modern minies, which have a hollow base plug, to just fall out by spraying the mold with Gunk brand silicone spray immediately before casting.

[HDS]

Pretty descriptive pics in this thread on what a Cramer-style mold is:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1260143

[HDS]

I just had another idea looking at those pictures. Why not put a small spring over the pin, in between the retainer clip and mold? Then everytime you push the pins out, they will reset automatically.

[pdawg_shooter]

For me, I use 6 cavity molds, progressive presses, lube dies, etc because I still work full time, I have a 6 month old son and a wife. I like to reload, but I need to get the most out of my time.

I work 50hrs a week at a job in town, farm and run a few head of cattle on the side. I still get all the bullets I need with a ladle and a number of 2 cavity molds. I pan lube my pistol bullets and paper patch my rifle bullets. My press is a Rockchucker. I still keep up.