Flintlock quality

[Ickisrulz]

By looking around I get the idea that a flintlock must be of a higher quality than cap type rifle to function properly and last.

What would be a good rifle to buy (not wanting a kit)? Are Lyman GPR flintlocks of a high enough quality or do I need a semi-custom?

[frontier gander]

on todays market for high production flintlocks, Lyman will be #1 on that list.

[docone31]

Lyman, and CVA are great rifles. You can also upgrade to a better lock. L & R makes them.
No lefties though.
They make flints, and percussion locks.

[shunka]

some folks with a T/C or Lyman GPR flinter are happy with their locks, but the fact that L&R offers and sells a drop-in lock replacement speaks volumes.

Most folks building a gun will go straight to TOTW or it's competitors, where a good L&R, Davis, or Chamber flint lock starts at ~ $135.

Once you get them apart and start fooling about with a good light and magnifier, the above locks make the Spanish and Italian locks look like a cheap Timex compared to a good jeweled watch movement.

Then if you get into the really High End locks, well, they ARE like jeweled watch movements!

yhs
shunka

[Dean D.]

some folks with a T/C or Lyman GPR flinter are happy with their locks, but the fact that L&R offers and sells a drop-in lock replacement speaks volumes.

Most folks building a gun will go straight to TOTW or it's competitors, where a good L&R, Davis, or Chamber flint lock starts at ~ $135.

Once you get them apart and start fooling about with a good light and magnifier, the above locks make the Spanish and Italian locks look like a cheap Timex compared to a good jeweled watch movement.

Then if you get into the really High End locks, well, they ARE like jeweled watch movements!

yhs
shunka

Shunka nailed it. I like my GPR flintlock but the coil spring lock on it pales in comparison to the L&R on my kit rifle from TOW or the Chambers Queen Anne Siler that I bought for my pistol project. Someday when I have the money I will upgrade it to the L&R replacement lock.

None of the production guns that I am aware of come with higher quality locks so if you do not plan on building or having a gun built you may want to factor in the cost of the replacement lock.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
+1 on the above info on the locks.. But the rifle you buy will exibit the price you pay. Barrels are just as important as the lock. Is it straight, does it have diameter differences, was it made from quality steel that does not have air bubble pits throughout ? Those are just a few of the realities you can find in a BP barrel.
And lock instalation.. is the lock placed firmly against the barrel or is there an air gap at the flash pan where powder will drop down into the stock ? Is the flash hole properly alinged and at a proper height ?
Just a few items seen on inexpensive flinters that will shoot sort of.
Find an area flint shooter who has been at it awhile... Most have leads on good used rifles sitting about waiting to get snatched up & used some more.
Mike in Peru

[curator]

A high quality off the shelf gun is the Pedersoli Mortimer. The locks on the high grade Pedersoli guns are very fine. Lyman GPR is OK but leaves some to be desired.

[gnoahhh]

The low end locks with their coil springs are certainly workable, but lack the "snappiness" of a high end lock from the purveyors listed above, not to mention quality of the steel they're made of. In this game, as with everything else, you get what you pay for. "Tain't no free lunch.

[scattershot]

2nd the Pedersoli Mortimer. I had one, and it was a fine rifle. A little heavy, though. I would point out, too, that a lot of the problems guys have with flinters is buying a cheap one to start with, and it sours them on the experience. T/C has revamped theirs in recent years, and I hear it's a pretty good rockscratcher these days.

[405]

NO info on some of the Italians, Spanish, etc. but some experience with the early CVAs and Lymans. Some of the WORST MLs I've ever looked at originated in Spain from the 70s-80s.

Since T/C was one of the earlier production factories into the rebirth of muzzleloader popularity beginning in the late 60s, they have produced a high quality, very consistent, Made in USA product. Their locks are not from milled stock but generally investment cast as T/C was one of the first large gun companies to perfect and incorporate the process for gun parts. Ruger and more recently most of the old, large US companies have followed suit with the cast process. I will say that for a modern production, old "style" factory muzzleloader gun, the T/Cs from the late 60s thru 70s are hard to beat.

The early CVAs and the Lymans (and most of the ML repros for that matter) are not US guns and the metallurgy, castings, barrels, etc. have been suspect. I have no experience with the more recent Lyman flintlocks but rumor is they are fairly reliable.

The more recent upgrade of the T/C flintlock geometry and frizzen metallurgy have greatly improved the function of that model. I've owned and/or built from kits maybe 25 different T/C guns in the last 40 years. Until recently purchasing two T/Cs made in the early 70s, have not owned a T/C for 20 years. Most of my MLs are either custom parts guns or originals. So, comparing a current factory flintlock with an original, custom, or one with a current L&R or Siler lock is like apples vs oranges.

Flintlocks are fickle creatures and require effort and understanding to keep them running or making corrections if they aren't. In the end the saying- "you get what you pay for" pretty much sums it up.

[Ickisrulz]

It looks like for the price of a GPR and new lock I'd be better off with a TVM rifle without any of the upgrades.

[thunderthud]

like they all said above a cheap flintlock aint no bargain. nothing good is ever cheap and nothing cheap is ever good.

[405]

Icki,
You're probably on the right track looking at the TVM stuff. Don't know which model your looking at but to me that Tennessee Poor Boy rifle- assembled but not finished, sure seems tempting. But, you may want to get the finished gun for 100 more. Still, by at least finishing one yourself, you'll have some sweat equity and individuality in it. Finishing is probably the least stressing, most fun part of any build. :)

[Hang Fire]

NO info on some of the Italians, Spanish, etc. but some experience with the early CVAs and Lymans. Some of the WORST MLs I've ever looked at originated in Spain from the 70s-80s.

Since T/C was one of the earlier production factories into the rebirth of muzzleloader popularity beginning in the late 60s, they have produced a high quality, very consistent, Made in USA product. Their locks are not from milled stock but generally investment cast as T/C was one of the first large gun companies to perfect and incorporate the process for gun parts. Ruger and more recently most of the old, large US companies have followed suit with the cast process. I will say that for a modern production, old "style" factory muzzleloader gun, the T/Cs from the late 60s thru 70s are hard to beat.

The early CVAs and the Lymans (and most of the ML repros for that matter) are not US guns and the metallurgy, castings, barrels, etc. have been suspect. I have no experience with the more recent Lyman flintlocks but rumor is they are fairly reliable.

The more recent upgrade of the T/C flintlock geometry and frizzen metallurgy have greatly improved the function of that model. I've owned and/or built from kits maybe 25 different T/C guns in the last 40 years. Until recently purchasing two T/Cs made in the early 70s, have not owned a T/C for 20 years. Most of my MLs are either custom parts guns or originals. So, comparing a current factory flintlock with an original, custom, or one with a current L&R or Siler lock is like apples vs oranges.

Flintlocks are fickle creatures and require effort and understanding to keep them running or making corrections if they aren't. In the end the saying- "you get what you pay for" pretty much sums it up.

This old style TC Hawken is probably the most accurate from the bench rocklock I have. I picked it up few years back at a good price, it is .45 caliber with a 32 inch Orion barrel. The lock showed much wear and tear with some problems when first got, so sent lock in to TC for repair, was surprised a couple weeks later to get a new style lock at no charge. (TC in my book is now #1 for customer service) The new lock is a great sparker and no fail.



When Green Mountain put their rocklock drop in .54 smoothbore (30 gauge) barrels up for sale at $100.00 I grabbed one. As I like one gun for shot or ball, it has proved to be a good deal, can change barrels in just a few seconds to go from ball for buck to shot for birds.

Info at pic is for insurance purposes.


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/TANSTAAFL-2/ATCHawkenFL.jpg

[Maven]

Ickisruiz, I can't argue with the advice you've received regarding L & R locks or Matt Avance's (TVM) guns, but the Lyman GPR flintlock isn't a bad deal IF you're willing to tinker with the lock and touchhole/vent. A friend of mine was shooting a GPR flinter made from a kit at our Shoot 2 weeks ago and had no problems with it to speak of*. It was also quite accurate. My caplock GPR is incredibly accurate, btw.

As for modifications to the lock and trigger, you basically need to polish those surfaces that bear on one another: where the trigger contacts the sear, the sear where the trigger bears on it, the inner surface of the lock plate, the "foot" (?) of the frizzen where it bears on the frizzen spring.

Vent liner: Remove it and cone both the inner & outer surfaces with a countersink in an electric drill or athe properly shaped stone bit in a Dremel tool.

Lock geometry: This isn't the best as the hammer/cock strikes the frizzen ~ at its midpoint instead of ~1/3 down from the top. One way to fix it is to heat & bend the hammer, which can be risky (I wouldn't try this either!). Another way is to purchase Thompson/Center's new, improved hammer for their Hawken flintlock, but this isn't for the faint of heart either. Last, and easiest, but also quite effective, is to simply place a 1/8" thick shim under the flint in order to raise where it contacts the frizzen.

The above modifications, assuming you don't heat & bend the hammer or replace it with one from T/C, shouldn't take more than 2 hours of your time.


*It was a borrowed rifle whose owner owns and shoots high dollar flintlocks, which are a pleasure to see and shoot. However, they are not any more accurate than the GPR.

[firefly1957]

Ickisrulz it really depends on what you want the gun for are you competing, hunting, if you want a expensive wall hanger I have a Hatfield for you. Kind of kidding I bought a Hatfield some years ago and have never been real happy with it it fires OK but it was supposed to be a .36 cal and it is a .35 and I have never gotten great groups with it. I also fitted a .40 caliber barrel to it that one shoots a bit better it is a green mountain barrel 42" with very deep grooves 1-48 rifling. Bore is 40 grooves are .422 1 in 1000 .

[405]

While I'm not a big Italian repro fan, I don't completely dismiss them all as marginal either. Shoot, Beretta makes fine O/U shotguns!

This lock, while not a flint, does demonstrate that all mass produced Italian ML locks are not sub-par. It's from a "Santa Fe Hawken" sold by the old Western Arms Corp in the mid 70s- made by Uberti. It needed very little tune up and honing to bring it to top performance. It is now what I'd call a very, very good lock.

The only question I ever had about those Western Arms guns is what possessed them to use/order or OK a .53 caliber barrel. To boot, the barrel is marked "54 cal". That in turn accounted for more than a few broken ramrods. :roll: (that rifle is one of the primary reasons you see Lyman and RCBS .520 roundball molds and why Hornady supplies, off and on, .520 swaged balls.)

[catboat]

To me, the biggest issue of quality for a low/midrange cost flintlock is the frizzen steel. The frizzen is the part of the lock that the flint strikes to creat the spark.

Many (most?) "low end" flintlocks cause frustration to new shooters as the frizzen is soft steel. They throw few sparks, and they are yellow in color, and typically linear/straight.

A frizzen with quality steel with create many WHITE colored sparks, that are BRANCHED. This showers the pan for fast ignition of the powder.

It' been a while since I've purchased one, but you used to be able to buy aftermarket frizzens for T/C and Lyman flintlocks from a manufacturer (whose name I long forgot). I bought an aftermarket frizzen for my t/c hawken and it turned it into a tremendously reliable shooter. I also replaced the factory barrel with a Green Mountain barrel, but it all worked together very well.

Do some research. If you can find "the old supplier" I used, or a new one, you will be well-served. It will be the cheapest way to "upgrade" your flinter. I think my frizzen cost something like $20, and was a piece of cake to install. Maybe there are more aftermarket frizzen makers , with more models/makes available.

Track of the wolf may be a good start to look-or ask for advise.

If that is not an option, perhaps you can find a flintlock gunsmith, and get a frizzen made or "soled" (welding on a hardened front of a soft-steel frizzen.

I shot on the Maine flintlock team that won 10-12 straight New England flintlock championships. I shot my T/C hawken (50 cal) flinter with Green Mountain barrel and new frizzen in some of those wins. They work.

[SamTexas49]

"nothing good is ever cheap and nothing cheap is ever good" Bingo on that !!

Lock time and spark are SO MUCH NICER with a quality lock !!

[Lonegun1894]

I have a rifle that was built by TVM and has a Siler lock in it. That rifle isnt going anywhere as it shoots great. I also have three Lyman GPRs, all flinters, and all three of them shoot great also. Now the Lymans did need a little work to get them reliable, but the only things i had to do was drill out the flash holes on all 3 out to 1/16" and I also coned them while I had them out of the guns, and replace the agate they came with with real flint. Since doing those very minor modifications, all three have been just as good as the rifle with the Siler in it. Now the drill cost me about $2, and between the 3 flash holes, I'm sure I didnt spend half an hour between the three of them to get them reliable, so I can recommend the GPR with a clear conscience, assuming you have $2 and about 10 minutes to spare to finish what the factory should have done. The only TC I have I haven't had a chance to shoot yet, but it sparks great so I think it should be just as good as the GPRs and the Siler. Those are the only flint locks I have personal experience with and can comment on. Others here have mentioned others they have used so hopefully that will help your selection. No matter what you get, flinters all have their own personalities and you will have to get to know them a bit before they will show you what they can really do, so dont give up if the first few range sessions dont go perfectly for you. Get to know your guns.

[Hanshi]

Almost anyone can make a reliable percussion lock for an ML. A flint lock, however, requires precise details. The geometry and dimensions are critical for proper functioning. And you can't tell a good one from a bad one just by looking at it as you can with a percussion lock. Foreign made flint locks are always suspect but some of them do have a good track record. GPRs have a good reputation as do some of the Pedesoli locks.