Neck expanding straight wall cases

[bigborefan]

I was just reloading some of my 45/90 brass and notice that when I use the neck expander on these straight wall cases, you can see the point at which the case gets bigger for bullet seating on one side of the case while the other side is still straight with no bulge signs of the expander. Is this normal or is my press out of alignment with my dies? I had noticed this before but gave it no thought. I'm using a .4575 expander on new cases that are ful lenght resized.

[arkypete]

What sort of neck expander are you using? Lyman M die?
Jim

[bigborefan]

Yes, As a matter of fact, it is a Lyman M die but I also have a Lee neck sizer with a floating expander in it that does the same thing, only not as bad.

[kywoodwrkr]

Take a case and try the expanding process again.
Note which direction, in terms of the front center of the press the direction the bulge is offset to.
Turn the shell holder 180 degress and try another case.
See if the bulge is at same location or maybe just 180 degrees out. I've had terrible troubles recently with shell holders(RCBS).
I have three 9mm shellholders, one of which will not fit any ram I have(5), another which will accept only certain cases and finally a third one which seems to work as expected.
Alignment is also suspect.
Have you tried to gently guide the case into the expanding die?
Just some thoughts.
DaveP kywoodwrkr

[bigborefan]

Dave,
I did as you said and no matter what way I turn the shell holder, it still puts the bulge from the front of the press. The shell holder and press is RCBS. I also found another RCBS press that I had and forgot about and set that one up and does the same thing. I remember it doing this years ago with 45/70 and 458 mag cases but since I wasn't going to use them for any serious target shooting, I didn't much care. It might be the way it is supposed to be, but I don't want to load up a large number to find out later that it could have been prevented. I always thought the bulging from the expander made the round look like hell but then sometimes I pay much more attention to appearance than functioning.

[454PB]

It sounds like something is out of alignment, die, shellholder or press ram. One way to cure it is to rotate the case 180 degrees after the first expander pass and give it another pass.

[bigborefan]

454PB, I tried rotating the case 180 degrees and then run it through again and it didn't change a thing. I have two RCBS shell holders for this case type (45/70) and both have the same scenario with the one side showing a bulge and straight as an arrow on the opposite side. It's hard to believe it being an alignmement problem from two press's. I've only seen this with straight wall cases. I have never seen this problem with necked cases that I have loaded. It would seem to me that a condition like this would influence any accuracy that I try to achieve. When I crimp the round, it's crimp is symmetric all around the case mouth.

[Dale53]

Have you miked the neck thickness of your brass?. If the brass neck thickness varies, the "thin" side will allow the bulge to occur.

There is a way to check if your press or shell holder might be suspect if you have a drill press. Chuck the neck expander in the drill press. Align your case under the expander by eye while setting the head of the brass on a smooth surface of your drill press table. The brass will self align then expand the neck. If it is the loading press or shell holder at fault, the drill press will produce properly expanded cases. If the drill press experiment gives the same results as the loading press, you'll know that the brass is the culprit.

Use a good case lube as the case will be difficult to remove from the expander. After the brass is expanded, slip a shell holder on the case then slide a drill press vise in position and clamp the base of the shell holder in the vise. It should then slip right off after you return the quill to its "at rest" position.

Dale53

[felix]

Actually it happens with all kinds of cases. You have to have almost perfect cases for them to size back to 100 percent round. Cases have to be perfectly uniform in thickness and hardness all the way around incrementally up and down the case. ... felix

[arkypete]

Here's a solution I found for my expander problem. I loosened the lock nut of, what ever you call it, expander stem? I ran a resized, trimmed 45-70 case into the die. The Lyman M die expanding portion of the stem, not to be confused with the flaring portion, is fairly long, I let it go in a 1/4 inch then I tightened the lock nut.
Two qualifications, I use a Co-Ax press and my expander stem has been polished down a few thousandths. So the stem is smaller and smoother.
Another trick I use is to seat the bullet using the flat nose of the bullets rather then using the cup of the seating stem. I filled the cup with some of my ex wifes sealing wax. The stuff used for sealing envelopes not canning preserves.
It's my thought that with the Co-Ax press the base of the case and the flat seating stem should be pretty paralelle (sp).
Ask me what time is and I'll tell you how to build a watch.
Jim

[bigborefan]

I did the drill press experiment and came up with the same results. Since I used to be a benchrest shooter, I have a set of special micrometers made to check the thickness around the case mouth. Most of the case is at .011" while a small segment is .0105". I remember in the past loading 458 mag and 45/70 using both Winchester and Remington brass getting the same one sided bulge. These 45/90 cases are PMC and are thinner than Winchester and Reminton slightly. It must be a condition that occurs regularly and can't be prevented but I think it's odd that I have never seen anyone else bring this up on any of the reloading forums and I do visit quite a few. I believe Felix is right. It must be in the case variations.

[bigborefan]

Jim,
I also have a Lee neck expander die for this same caliber besides the Lyman M die. The way the Lee works is similar to what you were saying. The expander plug floats which means you get a positive alignment before putting the final pressure on handle. It has about a 3/8" space before it touches the top of the die cavity. I also think that because of the shell holder being open at one end, the case moves to accept the entrance of the expander plug where if the case could be held in a more solid and rigid form as in a collet type holder, I don't see this as being the problem it is.

[hydraulic]

Just looking to learn a little more about reloading so this isn't a criticism, but I'm curious why you are resizing your brass. Are you loading smokeless powder?

[bigborefan]

Hydraulic,No problem. I am loading these in smokeless to familiarize myself with my new Sharps. Then I will jump into new territory for me, black powder cartridges. The only reason I'm ful lenfgt resizing is that these are new unfired cases and as soon as they are once fired, they will be neck sized only.

[cabezaverde]

If you are going to use the same cases in the same rifle, try not sizing them as much. Bring your sizer die up gradually until it goes away.

[Dale53]

I use the Lee Expander for my Black Powder Cartridge Rifles as per Pat and Spence Wolfe's book on the Trapdoor. I had a custom expanding stem that is .001" smaller than my bullet size. With the brass "spring back" that gives me a perfect .002" for proper case neck tension. This has worked well in every BPCR that I have used it in.

The Lee expanders have no threads so it is a rather simple operation to make them on a lathe.

Dale53

[44man]

It is a combination of oversizing, over expanding and brass variations. I would just leave the expander loose so it finds the center of the case mouth to see what happens. Try both the die body and the expander plug loose once.
And work the press SLOW! No operation needs to have the press worked fast.
I have never found any new brass that had to be full length sized. If a new empty falls in the chamber, neck sizing or no sizing at all, just expand.

[Larry Gibson]

If you are going to use the same cases in the same rifle, try not sizing them as much. Bring your sizer die up gradually until it goes away.

There in lies the answer, you are sizing them down too much and then expanding to much. Back the sizing die out until he inside of the sized case is .002-.003" less than your bullet diameter.

Larry Gibson

[boommer]

nothings ever perfect. this is how I solved that problem! take your loaded round
and pull the decapping stem out of your full resizing put your die in press as normal
run the round up into die not all the way you have to use some common sense here!
but what you are doing with this taking the lop siding out also taper crimping and you will will have better shell run out! I run up the shell up into the die a little ways
then pull it down then turn case 180 up into the die a little more pull it down look at
it maybe a little more it's just a matter working with it . I LOAD 45-90 45-70 38-55
ALL IN BLACK. this is what i do on new cases I don't resize after that. but i do run
my loaded cases up in the resizing die still because i get great bullet run out and
good neck tension with black it makes big difference .
hope this helps BIGBOREFAN

[bigborefan]

First, Thanks to all that responded. Much appreciated. Larry, I just tried a couple cases without sizing at all and they still bulge on one side and not the other. My bullets are .459" and I'm using the Lyman M expander which measures .4575" so I'm really not out of bounds with this combination.
Boomer,
I tried what you said and they do come out perfectly concentric again with no bulges whatsoever. My only question now is does running them back into the full length resizing die part way affect the bullet diameter since it is almost like resizing the bullet again to conform to the compressing of the case? If you don't think it affects the bullet, I'll buy an extra full lenght sizing die set up just for this operation.

[bigborefan]

Boomer, I just removed the bullet from the case that I ran part way up the full sizing die to check it's diameter. It started out .459" and ended up being .453 after using this method. I only ran it up far enough to elliminate the bulge so this method does affect bullet diameter. The bullet was not deformed in any way but lost .006" diameter. Bullet alloy is wheel weights with extra tin. BHN about 10-11. I also have a taper crimp die in this caliber and tried it. It would not go up in the die far enough to elliminate the bulged side.

[Gussy]

A couple of thoughts. Annealing the cases, may help but not if the tools aren't centered.

There could be a slight cant where the lock ring seats. There is always some thread slop and if the lock ring (or ring mating surface) isn't true it will cant the die. I found this one when trying to use a regular nut for a lock ring. Ended up putting the die and lock ring/nut in the lathe and cutting the surface perfectly true with the die body.
Gus

[boommer]

big borefan I know sizes them down a hair but the bullet bumps anyways and the

run out and neck tension i get 14 fps spread on the crony and the 45-90 highwall
just pounds them into ragged hole at 100yrds but i've never tried with jacketed
bullets but this works so well i don't ask my smokers why! it just works
I guess you could spend big bucks dies and solve the problem. You will find out that
when you start loading black you need universal decap die and you can use f/l sizer
for this purpose and when you start to mess with black it's hard to go back!!!
I KNOW !!!AND I DON'T REALLY KNOW ANYBODY THATS GOT A 45-90 TO SHOOT GOOD
WITH BLACK WITH LESS THAN A 500 GR PILL( FOOD FOR THOUGHT)
HOPE THIS HELPS YOU

[bigborefan]

Boomer, I'll try your method on enough to get an idea if it works for me. You make a very convincing case for it. I hope that I have the same luck as you. One ragged hole at 100yds sounds good to me. By the way, I'm using a 535gr Postell bullet behind 35 grs of SR 4579. I'm really looking forward to black powder though. It will be a couple months til I can try these out since I live here in arctic Ohio (-3degrees this morning).
Gus, I'm pretty convinced that the loading equipment is not the culprit now. I tried using two different press's and tried the drill press method and the results are the same. It is probably a normal condition that most people never paid any attention to. I've always been very anal to small details in my reloading.

[boommer]

OK BIG BORE FAN I went pulled a bullet and i size and lube them at .459 and when
mic it 457 on the front band 459 base but this is on unsized fired brass I don't have
any virgin loadings around but on my virgins it been awhile i remember they shot great ! Your w/w weights with tin should bump up. with black I am at 30-1 so mine
6-7 bhn but my virgins were probably same just softer lead. After firing them not sizing them I do'nt have to run them up into so far so i dont change my diameter
that much. the only way I see to get rid of the off set bulge is expand a little turn
the case expand the case or have the die opened up you dont notice this on
bottle necks because the cases are necked. so I GUESS WELCOME to STRAIT WALLS
OPENING up the die your expander wont have to work so hard. it will expand truer
dies are generic unless you spend the bucks so i just try to work around things the best i can

[boommer]

THE BROWN GOD JUST SHOWED UP AND GAVE ME 10 LBS SWISS 1.5 I'VE BEEN PRAYING FOR HIM IT'S BEEN ANSWERED ! now i can start loading again Its 2 degrees
here in northren ill and big borefan those big slugs like being few thousands off the
rifling does'nt give them chance to get kinky lot of weight there!oh well going go load latter boyz!

[leftiye]

The comments on doing less sizing are probably very good. I suspect the problem would not occur if you could size the neck only enough that the neck would need no expanding and still hold the boolit correctly (This won't work until cases are fireformed. Factory brass is already too small.) This would require that you polish out the neck area of your sizing die. You might want to set the neck sizing up for jacketed (minimum sizing that will correctly hold j-words), as otherwise the die will only be useable for cast boolits. If you're a fanatic like me, I'd set it up for cast boolits, and order another sizing die for j-words.

[bigborefan]

Leftiye, I think you're right about this problem is magnified by the fact that it is new brass. After fireforming and only neck sizing enough to minimize the amount of the neck expander, this will probably be a mute issue. I don't plan on using jacketed bullets so I can set this die for all my reloading.
Boomer, I've seen a lot of articles on BP loading for the 45 cal. Sharps and with all the data that I have seen, it appears that Swiss 1.5 give the most consistant smaller groups. Do you find this also?

[boommer]

big bore fan I use swiss 1.5 I have tried 2ff and cartridge in goex and could not get
accuracy and velocity consistency out them as with swiss with all the all combos I tried maybe someone else can but i never could'nt I' LL SPEND A COUPLE EXTRA BUCKS TO GET THERE ! I started with goex because i could get it locally but could not get the groups I thought I should so I sent off to POWDER INC. order 1.5 swiss and
I've never looked back!! I found in my strait walls it can't be beat at least in my world
I AINT NO PRO BUT I TRY!!!!

LEFTIYE is correct just partly size them see if you can get that to work.