Learning curve

[Bear Claw]

Hi All

Yes I am here again, Rifles are ordered, I am waiting on the books on bpcr I ordered, But I am a little confused from reading some of the posts here so I have a few questions.....

1; will my rockchucker press work on 45-110
2: as I will be casting my own boolits do I paper patch, gascheck, or what?
3: what bollit moulds do you recomened for 45-70 & 45-110
4: Lube? I use lee liq. alox will this work? or is there a better altern.
5: alloy? I use WW is this ok
6: what do you use/how do you clean your brass ( I use a thumbler )
7: would an rcbs uni-flow be ok or will I need somthing else to throw BP
8: is a drop tube a must or is it just nice to have
9: I understand about the wads but what is a greese cookie & why is it needed
10: loading dies I prefer Redding but dont see any of the 45-110 listed what do you use.......

I know these are all dum newbie questions to you all please forgive me, plus for a little background on me, I dont hunt anymore, I dont plan on sillywet shooting ( but ya never know) I have been handloading for about 25yrs & casting for15yrs
so while I aint a begginer, I know when to ask for help, I will be starting out with the 45-70 & 18 mo"s or so later the 45-110 so till my books get here I will pester you all about this.... OK?


Bear Claw:drinks:

[Jon K]

Bear Claw,

All of your questions are valid and will draw tons of experience and opinions. Review all with an open objective attitude. Also go here lurk and learn to do searches:

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/
http://goexpowder.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=15

Lots of good info to absorb and ponder out there.

Last but not least - Call the Credit card Company, ask them to raise your limit, and put signs up so UPS, Fed EX and DHL can ind an easy path to your house. Soon you'll know all the drivers by name.


Have Fun Shooting,
Jon
:castmine:

P.S.
It's addictive!

[kodiak1]

Bear Claw
1 Yes your press should work no trouble at all.
2 Which ever you want load them lubed and plain based under 1500 fps, Lubed and Gas checked if over 1500fps, Paper patch what ever speed you want.
3. 405 Grn with a big flat nose for the 45-70 and probably 500 plus in the 45-110.
before buying a mould spend some cash and buy a small assortment of cast bullets to try.
4. Lube Which powder are you shooting Black or Smokeless? With Black your lube cannot have any petroleum prducts in it or you will hate your self. Smokeless pretty much anything goes that will stand the speed you are shooting.
5. WW are excellent.
6.I wash and let dry then tumble in a Hornadayt tumbler.
7.Starting out I would bulk measure if using Black and Scale if using Smokeless till I had a few rounmds built and shot to understand things better.
8. Yes you should use a drop tube it helps with the compression. You will still have to compress your powder if Black.
9. Grease cookies are a disc of lube ontop of the powder wad then the cookie then a top patch then the bullet. Usually used only in paper patch but some do use them with grease groove bullets. This is the lube that will keep the black powder fowling in you barrel soft.
10. Redding will probably have to be special ordered.
Good luck and good loading.
Ken.

[NickSS]

As far as bullets it depends upon what you plan to do with your rifle. As it is a 45-110 (I assume this is the 2-7/8" case) you probably want heavy bullets. Lee makes a couple around 500 gr as well as a 405 gr bullet. Most of the original 45-110s were loaded with a 500 or 550 gr paper patched bullet. However, I use a 535 gr postel bullet in my 45 cal rifles for long range target shooting. I have a 480 gr flat point for use when hunting as I find that a flat point cast fairly soft (30-1) works best when shooting game like elk and buffalo. Anything smaller you really have too much rifle/cartridge for them. A good all around starting bullet is the old 500 gr round nose government bullet. Most mold makers make a mold like this and I have a couple of friends who have a lot of molds but this is the one they shoot most.

[mozark]

Black powder loading can be pretty low tech.

I don't tumble or polish my black powder cases. After firing I decap and drop them in warm soapy water. Later I scrub inside with a small bottle brush, (it needs to be the type with bristles on the end to get the bottom) and take a turn with an old brass bore brush of appropriate diameter in case there is any build-up in the neck. There never is. I stand the cases upright under a desk lamp to dry. Clean primer pockets. Black powder residue is water soluble and washes completely away very easily leaving only a light patina. I like the patina on the brass, but know it doesn't appeal to everyone.

MM

[SharpsShooter]

One of the easiest boolits to get to shoot in the 45-70 is the Lyman 457125. It is 520gr with enough lub capacity to allow you to dispense with the grease cookie. You will need to pick up some wads for "over powder and I also use a card wad on top of that to prevent the veggie wad from sticking to the boolit's base. That will cause the occasional flyer. As far as lube goes, I have had great results with BullShop's NASA lube. Cllick the "Bullshop" Link at the bottom of the page to get the details on that item. Yes you should use a drop tube and I believe using a compression die is a must also to achieve the best possible results.


SS

[Bear Claw]

X-celant info so far.....I will be shooting B P only & am open to any tips or idea's

I see some talk about annealing new cases I know how to do this as I do it with my W P brass but I have never had to do it to ( new brass ) Likewize I understand about BP weight Vs. volume so I wondered about the uni-flow and static elec. Vs. a brass powder dispenser ( I know I cant use my lyman 1200 )
but I can go Very low-tech, I have lee dippers if thats better,,, on lube for BP only
I am sure there are some brands you all could recomend so please do.

Again thank you ALL for responding the info is just what I needed KEEP it comming............. Bear Claw

[wills]

Also see
http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/Technical_Information.htm
and in particular
http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/bp_cartridge_reloading_dick_trenk.htm

You can make things easier on yourself and use SPG which is a blackpowder lube and will let you get started without having to worry about that as a variable. http://www.blackpowderspg.com/lube.html A lube with petroleum products will combine with the burning sulfur in the blackpowder to create tar in your barrel, which you may or may not be able to remove.

You do not need gaschecked boolits for BPCR and they may not be legal for competition.

Some people use WW and there are a lot who Alloy lead/tin at 20/1 or 30/1. (If you have a source of certified lead and tin, you can decide to you want to spend time hunting wheelweights or money buying lead/tin.)

Immediately after shooting decap, and drop the cases into a jug of water & detergent. I use a decapper from James C. Hagar 918-342-3465. When you get home, chuck a bore brush into an electric drill and brush out the inside of the case. Put the cases in a vibratory tumbler and let them tumble with the lid off until they are clean and dry. Do this somewhere the dust from the tumbler wont be a problem.

The powder measure manufacturers will say must have a special measure for black. There are other points of view. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=142145#post142145
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html

Regard a drop tube as a must. You can build it yourself like this http://www.buffaloarms.com/prodimg/DROPTUBE2.jpg or thishttp://www.buffaloarms.com/prodimg/DROPTUBE.jpg The second one is facing you, imagine a large capital letter E. The ones pictured are available from Buffalo Arms, which is the best place to get everything you need for BPCR http://www.buffaloarms.com/

If your boolit holds enough lube, you may not need a grease cookie.

You may also want to look at;
Alterfurtz BPCR group
http://groups.msn.com/BPCR
There are a number of lube recipes, if you want to make your own lube

Shiloh Sharps
http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/


Croft Barker; The Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette Handbook CISTERN PUBLISHING COMPANY, 14010 North State HWY 95 ,Flatonia, Texas 7894
Tel:(361) 865-0030 Fax: (361)865-0031,katbark@pcguns.net
http://www.cisternpublishing.org/

http://www.bpcr.net/index-a.htm

http://www.riflesmith.com/shoots.html

http://www.goexpowder.com/phpBB2/index.php

http://www.pauljonesmoulds.com/

You have to kind of fight with the NEI website, the second url gives you pictures of the boolits.
http://www.neihandtools.com/

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html

[montana_charlie]

I'll take a stab at a few of these...


2: as I will be casting my own boolits do I paper patch, gascheck, or what?
You left out 'grease groove' bullets, which is the most common type being used.

Paper patched bullets don't get lubed (although some apply a bit to the paper) but the loading process is something you should read up on before deciding to go that way.
Gas checks can be used on grease grooved bullets (if your mould throws that design), but are (usually) not allowed in BPCR competition.

It's also worth mentioning that, shooting heavy bullets over black powder, you will probably not get muzzle velocities that require gas checks.

3: what bollit moulds do you recomened for 45-70 & 45-110
Generally speaking, any bullet suitable in the .45-70 is also fine in the .45-110 if the weight is 500 grains or more. Lighter slugs do well in the shorter case for special purposes...or when trying to reduce recoil.
Of course, each rifle will have it's favorite, and the two may not agree on which is best.

There are about twenty 'good bullet' designs out there, ranging from the old Postell to the Money Bullet. To save time and mould money, your best bet may be to get with someone like Paul Jones and have him cut you a Money mould that fits your C. Sharps. It might also work well in that Quigley.
While waiting for the Quigley, you can explore books on the paper patch method.

4: Lube? I use lee liq. alox will this work? or is there a better altern.
Lube discussions can fill entire books. Beeswax-based lubes are most common in BPCR shooting.

5: alloy? I use WW is this ok
It won't damage the rifle.
Knowing you have purchased a C. Sharps, and have ordered a Shiloh...I'm surprised you would consider feeding them the cheapest alloy available.

8: is a drop tube a must or is it just nice to have
The drop tube is mostly used to cause the powder to 'settle' compactly in the case, after which it's 'compressed' by the desired amount prior to seating the bullet.
A 'consistently dense' powder column is the goal.

The tube is also used to get a quantity of powder into a case which otherwise would overflow if just poured in.
Powder can be 'settled' by tapping the charged case on the bench, or with mechanical vibration.

9: I understand about the wads but what is a greese cookie & why is it needed
That is a disc of bullet lube sandwiched between two wads. It sits on top of the powder and under the bullet base. It is the only means of introducing lube into the bore (to keep powder fouling soft) when paper patched bullets are used.
It is generally not needed with grease grooved bullets.

My answers are most applicable to the use of black powder as the propellant.
If smokeless is your aim, disregard much of what I said, but make that clear so others can help you out.
CM

[John Boy]

Bear, don't know if these items are in your inventory, but anyway:
Other Equipment to Acquire
1. Cross sticks
2. Blow tube
3. Shooting mat
4. Spotting Scope
5. Cartridge Cases
6. Pope De-capper - pop the primers at the range ... Dixie Arms has it
7. Cleaning Rod, w/45cal jag and 50cal bronze brush
8. Bore Snake?
9. Thompson's NATURAL LUBE 1000 PLUS BORE BUTTER ... to season your barrel
10. Thompson Adjustable Powder Measure; 5 - 125gr volume
11. RCBS Case Reamer
12. If you use a lube other than Alox - Lube Sizer and Dies (459 & 460)
... and start dumpster diving for bullet trays

[wills]

And set aside what you know about reloading with that 'white' powder.

[Bear Claw]

5: alloy? I use WW is this ok
It won't damage the rifle.
Knowing you have purchased a C. Sharps, and have ordered a Shiloh...I'm surprised you would consider feeding them the cheapest alloy available.

Well thats part of why I asked, I didnt know if I needed a softer alloy or not, as far as cheap, thats part of why I cast, I wasnt aware that the make or price of a gun would automaticly make me know that WW was a suprizing choice for boolits
for said guns, I know for my C & B pistols to use pure ( soft ) lead , and I know from reading here that most of you change the alloy some, Hence my question,
Also my BH for WW is somewhere between 8 & 10 for unquenchied (sic) & quench & aged is... Well you all know how it works..

I am not angry I just think you forgot that I am new to this BPCR stuff and what might suprize you is still a valid question for me...

I need all the input i can get, tell me about the good, bad, what I will need, what I wont & so on but please remember I am NEW and I will be useing BP ONLY.

BTW I am having a blast learning about this stuff, it is much more fun than WP & j-word boolits.... drivin the wife crazy though


Thank you everyone the links are a GREAT help and I am learning and your personnel input is still & always welcome I read it all and print for my records 99% of it for referance later.... KEEP IT COMMING
Bear Claw

[Boz330]

BTW I am having a blast learning about this stuff, it is much more fun than WP & j-word boolits.... drivin the wife crazy though

BC, I wouldn't drive her to crazy, one that good might be hard to come by twice.

As far as WW They shoot fine in my 2 C-Sharps rifles. My 2 rifles seem to be very tolerant of different alloys. I just leave them a little oversize. They absolutely lead more than the lead tin mix though. I would give them a try if that is all that you have. If you get into serious competition you will probably want to go to
20 or 30 -1.

Bob

[powderburnerr]

Bear claw ,
With the 110 patience is your best virtue. it is at times a tempermental cartridge but is very satisfying when it comes together . . use a good BP lube and and a heavier bulllet starting a 500 to 570 . the big case likes heavy bullets .your hardest job will be controling the torque of the rifle ,
ww will work but softer alloys are definately better,......................Dean.

[wills]

5: Also my BH for WW is somewhere between 8 & 10 for unquenchied (sic) & quench & aged is... Well you all know how it works..
I need all the input i can get, tell me about the good, bad, what I will need, what I wont & so on but please remember I am NEW and I will be useing BP ONLY.


Thank you everyone the links are a GREAT help and I am learning and your personnel input is still & always welcome I read it all and print for my records 99% of it for referance later.... KEEP IT COMMING
Bear Claw

Here is a comparison
http://www.pnjresources.com/Hardness%20of%20Lead%20Alloys.htm

[Bear Claw]

Well if I read this chart right My WW are very close to 20 or 30 to 1,,, So now I wonder what he meanes by his post, I know pure lead is to soft and WW can be alloyed to about anything ya wantso why is 20;/30:1 a big deal??? I dont think I"m stupid but I dont see the problem W/ WW............. What am I missing???

[wills]

Lots of people who shoot BPCR, particularly in competition, buy certified lead and tin and alloy it for the sake of consistency. ‘Till I saw that chart I had been under the impression WW was harder, but apparently not. Some people have good results shooting WW in BPCR.

WW is an economy metal, and a lot of boolit casters take pride in being able to scrounge their alloy, which they shoot in things like $89 Turk Mausers. It just seems kind of incongruous to some to buy a high end rifle like a Shiloh and shoot WW in it.

[longhorn]

Aw, Wills, I spent so many years of lunch money on the Shiloh, all I can afford to shoot are wheelweights-and scrounged ones, at that.

Bear Claw-budget for a custom mold--I think it'll pay off in ease of use. Plastic wads have made the most noticeable difference in the accuracy of my loads. Lots of good info on the Shiloh board on the .45-110 especially.

[boommer]

BEAR CLAW w/w will work for the most part they will fly as good as you need for now
until you get set into your smoke pole then you can start tweaking using w/w in
BLACK they a little harder then you want. BUY THE BEST POWDER SWISS 1.5 FOR YOUR GIRL! 215 FEDERAL PRIMERS OR LARGE STANDARD FOR DUPLEX LOADS
I know the purests are going to scream but it works

[John-n-va]

Didn't have no stinkin' wheel weights in the 1800's just like there was no Pyrodex or other such stuff. Won't put either through my Shiloh. Might as well use those copper boolits with that smokeless stuff:-D :-D

Seriously though, I think the fun of trying to make an 1874 design rifle shoot is using what they used back when it was designed. I like the idea of having as much control over consistancy as possible and that isn't possible with wheel weights due to more than one outfit making them and using whatever they have on hand today. Weigh some wheel weights sometime and see how consistant they are with the weight marked on em. Just my opinion guys.[smilie=1:

[wills]

Aw, Wills, I spent so many years of lunch money on the Shiloh, all I can afford to shoot are wheelweights-and scrounged ones, at that.

Bear Claw-budget for a custom mold--I think it'll pay off in ease of use. Plastic wads have made the most noticeable difference in the accuracy of my loads. Lots of good info on the Shiloh board on the .45-110 especially.

Gee, longhorn, I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to hurt your feelers. I’ll mail you a wheelweight, or bring you one next time I’m up that way, to make amends.

I understand Billy Dixon swore by low density polyethylene wads. :holysheep

[Boz330]

They might not have had WW in the 1800s but they knew about hardening lead for what ever pupose that they were using it for. Which is all that we are talking about here. The big thing about the WW is the consistency of the lead from batch to batch. As far as the poly wads they could get those from the coffee can lids.:mrgreen:

Besides the WWs off of those big ole wagon whheels were probably good for a bunch of 500 grainers. Waste not want not!:drinks:

Bob

[John-n-va]

I don't know that they used wads. I use vegetable fiber wads which are close to cardboard I guess. I suspect the coffee cans back then were burlap bags though.:)

One of my other hobbies is Civil War relic hunting. I have noticed that there is alot of difference in the alloys used in the 1860's. You can tell by the appearence of the oxidation on the lead bullets. As a general rule the Union muzzleloader boolits are a uniform white oxidation. The boolits used for breechloaders or carbines seem to have more tin mixed in since the bullets have an off white or even gray appearence sometimes. Confederate boolits especially the Gardner patent ones are almost gray colored most of the time but not always. So you are right....they did know about hardening lead.

[WBH]

Good luck with your NEW hobby. You will be more frustrated than you could ever imagine at times....but equally happy when a particular load works out for you. Start SLOW, change only 1 variable at a time. All of the prior advice has merit. I shoot .45-70, 45-90, 50-70 and 50-90. The '90's have only seen Swiss BP while their baby brothers have shot 5744 and Swiss. I have had great luck plinking with the Lee 405gr FP in the 45-70 over either black or white powder. For serious stuff I use only the Swiss and Lyman 457125, 457132 and some Paul Jones moulds. I am working up a load for the Big Fifty to use on a Bison hunt next December. The thrill of using an original (though rebarreled) rifle to hunt these magnificent creatures is overwhelming. Who knows....maybe that same rifle has already killed some Buff back in the day.

[montana_charlie]

Well if I read this chart right My WW are very close to 20 or 30 to 1,,, So now I wonder what he meanes by his post,
I take it the 'he' you mention is 'me', so I will say a few words.

I started to reply to your earlier response to my 'Item 5', but decided you would rather not hear it. So, I didn't. But, I intended to start out with this sentence...
"The answer I provided is accurate, in that WW is safe to shoot in your rifle. The opinion I added was poorly worded because I wanted to keep it short."

I have no experience with wheel weights. I have never tested one to determine hardness. The link posted by wills indicates that WW has a BNH of 9. I have always used this site (http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm) for that kind of information, so you can see why I think that 9 is incorrect.

If WW is (in fact) 12 BNH, that is well above the hardest lead/tin alloy normally suggested by BPCR shooters...and certainly harder than 30:1.

But, it won't damage your rifle.


In your other thread, you described how (in essentially the same day) you ordered two of the most expensive Sharps rifles available. (I admit to being somewhat envious of your ability to do that.)
However, if you are financially secure enough to support two purchases of that size, I am surprised you don't also intend to feed those rifles the purest foundry-certified alloy available.
If WW is harder than what you want to shoot, you are stuck with adding lead to soften it...then adding tin for good mould fill...which hardens it back up a bit.
Sounds to me like the long way around to end up with something you can probably afford...and which comes to you ready to cast.

I feed mine the purest I can find, and it's just a 'pasta shooter'.

Is WW a good choice? Only your rifle can answer that. But, when Paul Jones or Steve Brooks cuts the blocks for your 'perfect bullet', he may not be willing to guarantee your satisfaction...if he knows that WW will be your alloy of choice.

But, don't listen to me. Check with those who convinced you that C. Sharps and Shiloh rifles are the only kind worth owning. See what they tell you about alloys.
CM

[SharpsShooter]

My two cents worth...I shoot lots of annealed WW in my C.Sharps. It shoots them very well and I for am of the opinion that if you can stay reasonably in the area of 9bnh, you could not tell the difference in 20:1, 30:1 or annealed ww in actual shooting conditions. I have an abundance of PB and mix it to 16 pounds of PB to 4 pounds of WW and end up with a very easy to cast alloy that works. I don't think a Shiloh would gag on that fodder.

Shoot the WW. You will be fine.


SS

[longhorn]

ah,Dixon; I rather imagine he'd have preferred LDPE wads if they helped his bag totals. He was in the _business_ of killing buffalo. I am mindful of the littering question, but I've never seen a study on how long it takes fiber (headgasket) wads to disintegrate, either. I gave up worrying about that slippery slope of "they didn't have those;" I'm just playing games, after all. Besides, I drive to a place to shoot-once you do that, worrying about wads is pretty much nitpicking. Fencing pliers _are_ pretty handy for wheelweight scrounging, BTW!

[wills]

Lyman shows WW and 30/1 as both having a bhn of 9, for what it is worth.
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lymanproducts/images/Bullet%20Guide.pdf

(The mention of Billy Dixon was intended as humor.)

[Nrut]

My experince...not from a book.....[smilie=1:
ACWW= 12-14 BHN
Annealed WW= 9 BHN

[montana_charlie]

Lyman shows WW and 30/1 as both having a bhn of 9, for what it is worth.
I am truly NOT trying to be argumentative, wills. But, consider this and explain it to me if you are able.

The document you linked does state that WW has a BHN of 9.
In the same table, it is stated that Lyman #2 alloy has a BHN of 15.

Now look (just above that table) at Formula A for making Lyman #2 alloy.

If a person was to add 1/2 pound of tin to 9 pounds of pure lead, he would (essentially) have 20:1 alloy...and that alloy is supposed to have a BHN of 10.
As I understand it, adding more than 10% tin will not further harden pure lead, and 10:1 is 11 BHN.
If that is gospel, even 50/50 solder must be about BHN 11.

The formula would have you believe that adding 1/2 pound of tin and 1/2 pound of lead to 9 pounds of WW will yield an alloy that has a BHN of 15.

That means adding some pure lead (a softening agent)...then adding a small bit of tin (for a slight hardening effect) will bring a BHN of 9 up to 15?

My bullet brain doesn't handle that well. Does yours?
CM

[Bear Claw]

Montana Charlie

Ok lets look at it again "I take it the 'he' you mention is 'me', so I will say a few words.

I started to reply to your earlier response to my 'Item 5', but decided you would rather not hear it. So, I didn't. But, I intended to start out with this sentence...
"The answer I provided is accurate, in that WW is safe to shoot in your rifle. The opinion I added was poorly worded because I wanted to keep it short."

As I have said several times I am new to this BPCR stuff, I am not a chemist/mealurgist ( cant spell either ) I have never bought lead, the WW I get are freebee's,, I wouldnt know where to buy the " GOOD STUFF" But if I had to too shoot better I would find it somewhere,, As to "not wanting to hear it " I am not sure where that came from I thought I was clear to everyone that ALL advice IS welcome.....

"In your other thread, you described how (in essentially the same day) you ordered two of the most expensive Sharps rifles available. (I admit to being somewhat envious of your ability to do that.)
However, if you are financially secure enough to support two purchases of that size, I am surprised you don't also intend to feed those rifles the purest foundry-certified alloy available.
If WW is harder than what you want to shoot, you are stuck with adding lead to soften it...then adding tin for good mould fill...which hardens it back up a bit.
Sounds to me like the long way around to end up with something you can probably afford...and which comes to you ready to cast."

My financial security is this : I have been saving bonus and lunch money for many years to buy ONE gun, without my knowing it my wife has been doing the same as she knew how much I wanted the gun, So no I dont normaly have $7K to drop on anything let alone a gun,,

I dont know what "purest foundry-certified alloy available" sell's for but if it is very high then NO I wont be shooting it


"I feed mine the purest I can find, and it's just a 'pasta shooter'.

Is WW a good choice? Only your rifle can answer that. But, when Paul Jones or Steve Brooks cuts the blocks for your 'perfect bullet', he may not be willing to guarantee your satisfaction...if he knows that WW will be your alloy of choice.

But, don't listen to me. Check with those who convinced you that C. Sharps and Shiloh rifles are the only kind worth owning. See what they tell you about alloys.
CM"

I have NOTHING against "pasta shooter's" as YOU call them, and might still yet buy one myself,,, I doubt I will ever buy a $150.00 mould "guarantee your satisfaction" or not...As to "those who convinced you that C. Sharps and Shiloh rifles are the only kind worth owning. See what they tell you about alloys."
I had my mind made up long before I joined this forum " it's a long story"
so no one convinced me of anything, they just brought me up to speed/date
and as to alloy's and what others are saying WW=6,, PCL=4 and 1 guy who shoots both...

I understand what and why you are telling me about, Mabey I should have asked in a differant way ie: Are WW ok "AS CAST" or will I need to soften them up a little
My saeco LHT tells me my castings start out as a 9 or 10 as cast, if I water quench them they get harder.

B.C.

[John-n-va]

If you add 1/2 lb. tin to 9 lbs of lead you will have 18:1:-D

[6pt-sika]

Man you guys are making me a little apprehensive about the whole deal :(

Might have to rethink my choice of the 50-90 and get a 45-70 so I can shoot XMP5744 and WW bullets or possibly jacketed [smilie=1:

[longhorn]

I'm grinnin', Wills; I grin at those guys using 1880's shirt cardboard wads, too. You every been to Adobe Walls? Interesting place. Something to contemplate, standing at the site of the "village," looking off at the bluff where the Indian came off his horse unexpectedly. My father and I were out there a couple of years ago, and decided Dixon must have had the target perched on top of his front sight and about half his barrel, too.

[Jon K]

6pt-sika,

A lot to ponder on huh?
Well, don't let that choose the gun and caliber for you. Buy the one you really want, there is a reason you chose it, right? Don't buy, because you're leary of what you haven't done yet, because later it'll be a case of "woulda, coulda, shoulda".
If you really don't know what you want or what you're going to do with it, then, a 45-70 is good to get started, because it is very versatile, easy to find, and inexpensive components, and easy to find a good load.

Only you can answer these things.
Just remember you have the luxury of changing your mind, because it hasn't gone into production yet.

On the other side of the coin, you can always buy a second one later. It's like a mold, "you can't have just one".

Have Fun Shooting,
Jon
:castmine:

[6pt-sika]

6pt-sika,

Just remember you have the luxury of changing your mind, because it hasn't gone into production yet.

:

Yeah but if I get totally tired of the idea I'm outta $250 :???:

I'm starting to think maybe I should have gone with a CPA schuetzen in 32-40 .

I KNOW I won't have problems with loading that one :drinks:

[6pt-sika]

If you really don't know what you want or what you're going to do with it, then, a 45-70 is good to get started, because it is very versatile, easy to find, and inexpensive components, and easy to find a good load.

:

I already own five 45-70's and am looking for an original Marlin 1895 in 45-70 as well . So I really do not want a Sharps in 45-70 , not that there is anything wrong with that if that is what a preson wants.

However a Sharps to me is 50-90 or 50-70 ; and possibly 44-77 or 44-90 .

[boommer]

6pt-sika Just Remember This And I Live By This God Hates A Coward!!
And Don't Let Them Scare You You Will Most Likely Regret It If You Don't
Because It In Your Heart.

[6pt-sika]

6pt-sika Just Remember This And I Live By This God Hates A Coward!!
And Don't Let Them Scare You You Will Most Likely Regret It If You Don't
Because It In Your Heart.

Who the hell is scared or a coward ,PERIOD !

[wills]

I'm grinnin', Wills; I grin at those guys using 1880's shirt cardboard wads, too. You every been to Adobe Walls? Interesting place. Something to contemplate, standing at the site of the "village," looking off at the bluff where the Indian came off his horse unexpectedly. My father and I were out there a couple of years ago, and decided Dixon must have had the target perched on top of his front sight and about half his barrel, too.

Have not been there but I have seen this picture, which is supposed to be the hill.

[Bear Claw]

Man o Man, that woulda been some shot, Me I woulda been scalped

[boommer]

Man you guys are making me a little apprehensive about the whole deal :(

Might have to rethink my choice of the 50-90 and get a 45-70 so I can shoot XMP5744 and WW bullets or possibly jacketed [smilie=1:

SORRY just that was ment to say don't let them sway you from what you want.

[Jon K]

6pt-sika,

I was refering to BP, in the earlier thread. No offense meant toward you and 45-70's.
I guess I was saying get what pleases you. All you have listed, are BP barrels in a Shiloh, and the BN Calibers I have heard are tempermental. Although I like the looks of them.

Good Luck and
Have Fun Shooting,

Jon

[6pt-sika]

Apologies if I said anything outta line .

:???:

[Bigjohn]

Well boys; this sure has been an interesting thread but lets not forget why we come here.

Bear Claw, in a form of answer to your questions and please note, I could only dream of owning one let alone the two rifles you name. However, I do have a Browning BPCR 45/70 and a Pedersoli 1874 Sharps 45/70. The calibres were chosen because of the availability of cases.
For molds I use Lyman Postell 535 grs and Schmittzer 480grs; LEE 459/500/2R; CBE 480gr, 420gr FP; H. T. BUGG 480gr, 420gr FP as well as examples of their PP boolit molds.

Up to this point in time I have cast and used only WW metal for the projectiles launched with as much BLACK Powder as I can fit into the space left and ignited by a Federal 215 Magnum Large Rifle Primer.

With the wheel weight metal, I get consitency by mixing up a large batch at least enough to cast 200/250 boolits min. This suits me as I am not shooting matches or for prizes. At this time I can only shoot over a one hundred yard range and some of my groups are as small as 1 1/4" (over the bench). Both rifles have no problems with the WW boolits so long as the boolit carries enough BP lube.

I use at present Montana Arms BP Rifle Lube; when this runs out (as it is expensive here) I will go over to Beaver Grease from JeffinNZ.

John.

[Boz330]

Have not been there but I have seen this picture, which is supposed to be the hill.

I wonder who was more surprized Billy Dixon or the Indian.

Fun but not necessasarily useful fact. I used to guide with a fellow named Todd Dixon who said that he was the great, great nephew of Billy Dixon. He is a hell of a nice guy and great guide. This was in NM.

Bob

[wills]

I am truly NOT trying to be argumentative, wills. But, consider this and explain it to me if you are able.

The document you linked does state that WW has a BHN of 9.
In the same table, it is stated that Lyman #2 alloy has a BHN of 15.

Now look (just above that table) at Formula A for making Lyman #2 alloy.

If a person was to add 1/2 pound of tin to 9 pounds of pure lead, he would (essentially) have 20:1 alloy...and that alloy is supposed to have a BHN of 10.
As I understand it, adding more than 10% tin will not further harden pure lead, and 10:1 is 11 BHN.
If that is gospel, even 50/50 solder must be about BHN 11.

The formula would have you believe that adding 1/2 pound of tin and 1/2 pound of lead to 9 pounds of WW will yield an alloy that has a BHN of 15.

That means adding some pure lead (a softening agent)...then adding a small bit of tin (for a slight hardening effect) will bring a BHN of 9 up to 15?

My bullet brain doesn't handle that well. Does yours?
CM

I have absolutely no earthly idea why. Why does adding bhn 7 tin to bhn 5 lead cause any alloy to have a bhn higher than 7? (see table)

I’m not trying to be argumentative either, just pointed out some have reported success using WW for BPCR. When I first saw that I thought it was interesting, looked into it further and found the tables showing WW and 30/1 as having the same bhn. I don’t advocate any particular view on the matter, just wanted to pass along the information.


ALLOY BHN
LEAD 5
WW (STICK ON) 5
TIN 7
1 TO 40 TIN LEAD 8
1 TO 30 TIN LEAD 9
1 TO 20 TIN LEAD 10
1 TO 10 TIN LEAD 11
WW (CLIP ON) 12
LEAD SHOT* 13
LYMAN # 2 15
WATER QUENCHED WW 18
LINOTYPE 18 - 19
MONOTYPE 25 - 27
OVEN HEAT TREATED WW 30 - 32
ANTIMONY 50



How hard is a wheelweight? It’s like equity.

“Equity is a roguish thing. For Law we have a measure, know what to trust to; Equity is according to the conscience of him that is Chancellor, and as that is larger or narrower, so is Equity. ’T is all one as if they should make the standard for the measure we call a “foot” a Chancellor’s foot; what an uncertain measure would this be! One Chancellor has a long foot, another a short foot, a third an indifferent foot. ’T is the same thing in the Chancellor’s conscience.” - John Selden.

[AkMike]

He shot from the area of this pic to that hill? Wow he must have had great eyes.

[Boz330]

The indian was on a horse, plus Billy was still young so he could still see and he made his living shooting. Even with that the bullet had to be dropping like a mortar round so ranging had to be perfect or lucky. Me thinks the latter.

[Scrounger]

Billy Dixon should have bought a lottery ticket that day. He had a better chance of finding Uranium (Which probably hadn't even been discovered yet) than he had hitting that Indian. I've always suspected that the Indian had laughed himself to death when he saw someone shoot at him that far away...

[Bear Claw]

Thanks Bigjohn

My brother has one of those browning's it is a sweet rifle, and I am lookin at a pedersoli here in town, I havn't ordered the C. Sharps yet, I did order the Shiloh and since I have the wherewithall I am looking at "mabey" buying the Pedi. and spending the other money on moulds and other truck that I will need.

Anyway buy tuesday next week I will have made up my mind and spent the works, Some others had posted about other ways of getting a Shiloh w/o the wait and I am looking at that as well.

It all comes down to one point for me: I saw my first NICE reproduction Sharps in the Late 70's or early 80"s it was a C. Sharps but I couldnt afford one
what with small kids and all, So I just kinda gave up on the Idea, Well my kids are all grown and gone so about 4yrs ago I started saving every cent I could which brings us to where we are now. I don't hunt, I will prob. never shoot sillywet x-cept for fun, So these two rifles are just that FOR FUN for me, if I have to change my alloy I will or I will paperpatch or whatever, IT IS ALL FUN to me.


Thank you EVERYONE for posting on these threads you have all been helpfull
and if my questions have caused any hard feeling with anyone I am sorry, that was not my intent, I don't ask a question if I know the answer.


Keep the advice comming. Bear Claw:drinks:

[montana_charlie]

I have absolutely no earthly idea why.
Well, sir, that makes two of us.

It's my guess (and remember that I said it's a guess) that the 9 in the Lyman book is a mistake...or a typo. And, if others used the Lyman information as the gospel truth (which would be understandable) you would find a 9 in that slot in tables published by certain others, as well.

It's my feeling (just a feeling) that the 12 found in some tables is probably correct.
If it is, Lyman's Formula A for making #2 alloy from WW & 50/50 solder seems easier to believe.

I reckon, now that I have a new microscope for my Lee tester, I'm going to have to actually find a wheel weight someplace (or maybe even two)...to test the hardness for myself.

With my luck, they'll both be zinc...
CM

[Bigjohn]

Some years ago I read a book by Bill NEELEY; The Last Comanche Chief, The life and times of Quanah Parker. In this book the story of the fight at Adobe Walls is recounted including a description of the shot from both sides of the battle.

Quote; "Dixon wrote: ...some of the boys suggested that I try my big .50 on them. The distance was not far from three fourths of a mile. A number of exaggerated accounts have been written about this incident. I took careful aim, and pulled the trigger. We saw an Indian fall from his horse. The others dashed out of sight behind a clump of timber. A few moments later two Indians ran quickly on foot to where the dead Indian lay, seized his body and scurried for cover. They had risked their lives, as we had frequently observed, to rescue a comrade who might be not only wounded but dead. I was admittedly a good marksman, yet this was what might be called a 'scratch shot'." end quote.

From the other side a witness to the shot; Co-hay-yah later described the effect of Dixon's long shot to Colonel NYE; Quote; We lost the fight. The buffalo hunters were too much for us. They stood behind Adobe Walls. They had telescopes on their guns. Sometimes we would be standing 'way off resting and hardly thinking of the fight, and they would kill our horses. One of our men was knocked off his horse by a spent bullet fired at a range of about a mile. It stunned, but did not kill him.End quote.

It does not say if Co-hay-yah was actually talking about the actual shot by Dixon or another chance hit from a spent bullet during the battle. I do believe, and correct me if I am wrong; but the distance was actually surveyed sometime after the event and I can not recall the distance.

:coffee:

John

[wills]

Well, sir, that makes two of us.

It's my guess (and remember that I said it's a guess) that the 9 in the Lyman book is a mistake...or a typo. And, if others used the Lyman information as the gospel truth (which would be understandable) you would find a 9 in that slot in tables published by certain others, as well.

It's my feeling (just a feeling) that the 12 found in some tables is probably correct.
If it is, Lyman's Formula A for making #2 alloy from WW & 50/50 solder seems easier to believe.

I reckon, now that I have a new microscope for my Lee tester, I'm going to have to actually find a wheel weight someplace (or maybe even two)...to test the hardness for myself.

With my luck, they'll both be zinc...
CM

Gussy builds and sells lead testers and he says 12.5 (est) for new WW and 14(est) for old http://www.castingstuff.com/tester_hardness_cross_reference.htm

[hydraulic]

My .45-70 won't shoot wheel weights accurately. I use whatever I can find that comes close to pure lead; cable sheathing, plumbers lead, stained glass moulding. When I chose my BPCR it didn't take long to make up my mind what I wanted; I looked up from my table at the Tulsa show and here come a Pedersoli for $500 walking down the aisle and that was it. Hadn't planned on ever buying anything besides my 1884 Springfield. I think the Springfield is a better rifle.

[longhorn]

Yep, that's the hill. I would judge that the picture was taken from a position about 50 feet from Dixon's grave. Really a beautiful little side valley in a Panhandle sort of way, probably looked like paradise to the hunters and skinners. I read some account that the Indian (some sort of subchief or medicine man?) wasn't actually hit-that the bullet hit his saddle or his horse. If you decide to drive out there sometime, get a good map first. Signage is virtually nonexistent. Panhandle-Plains Museum in Canyon is worth a visit on the same trek-great firearms and art collections.

[Bear Claw]

I always liked the story about the old guy who went to camp perry to compete, did'nt even have a gun and used an issue'd 03 springfield & ammo, and a half of a binnoc. and only lost to a guy useing a scope because it got dark and he could'nt see the targets,, I can't recall his name but they named a cup for him, I think he was from Montana, The AMU liked him so well they bought the rifle he used and a case of ammo and gave it to him.......

I just Love that story............... Bear Claw:drinks:

[Boz330]

Mike V. Had a chapter in his book about buffalo rifles on that incident, and I beleive the distance was 1535yrds or there abouts. The rifle will shoot that far and still have enough energy to kill. I think Big John was right though and I don't think that the indian was killed, although as big as that 50 cal bullit is it would hurt if someone just threw it at you.

Bob

[wills]

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/targets/sandyhook.htm
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=1094&magid=78
http://members.tripod.com/~powderburns/sharps.html
“It seems that one of the forensic scientists wrote an article in their newsletter saying that the Billy Dixon shot at Adobe Walls in 1874 could not possibly have happened. (Remember Billy Dixon knocked an Indian off his horse at a distance later surveyed to be 1,538 yards.)”

http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/exhibits/indian/showdown/page2.html
http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/exhibits/indian/showdown/little-1908-2.html

[montana_charlie]

Interesting links...wills, especially the first one.

My Sharps is chambered in .45-90, so I am always on the lookout for information that relates to that cartridge.
Yeah...I know the purists are quick to point out that it's called the ".45-2 4/10 SS" if it's a Sharps, and a ".45-90" for all others. And, I also realize that ".45-90" is short for ".45-90 Win." - the official name of the round usually found on factory ammo and in reloading manuals.
To add to the confusion, I think it is considered most correct to call it the ".45-90 Winchester Express", because Winchester loaded it with a light bullet in the 300-350 grain range for use in their 1885 model.

So, while the whole thing (in that first link) is informative, I was most interested in the results they obtained with the two "Springfield Long Range" rifles that they tested.
Both were chambered for a 2.4 inch cartridge that they called the .45-80-500...which had the 500 grain bullet propelled by 80 grains of powder.
I have a feeling that if Winchester had used a bullet that heavy, the term ".45-90" wouldn't exist, today.
Based on the hints in the article, and my own experience in loading the 2.4" case, I wonder if Sharps ever put 90 grains of powder in their .45 2 4/10 SS cartridges...
Not being a researcher of historical documents, I will probably never know...but 85 grains may be a reasonable 'maximum' when packing powder in a case of this length under a 500+ grain bullet.

The fact that the 'army guys' (who were avid experimenters) did not choose a 90 grain load for testing seems meaningful, to me.

The two 'long range' guns had different rifling, too.
We often hear questions about comparisons between the 1:20 and 1:18 rifling twist in the .45 rifles. There is an answer to that question in the article...for any who wondering.

Thanks for the links, wills.
CM

[powderburnerr]

The article I read on the subject said that recoil became a factor after 80 gns with very little performance gain. and there wasnt enough improvement over the 70 to warrent the longer case . and 10 gns in a billion cartridges is a lot of powder . our govt. saving money.....Dean

[wills]

I knew I had seen this somewhere:

http://www.nativeamerican.co.uk/1874-5redriver.html

“The Comanche, probably the most bellicose of the peoples of the southern plains were inspired by a mystic called Isa Tai which means Coyote ****. Most books refer to this as his name before the Red River War, but I have often wondered whether this name was given to him retrospectively once the outcome of the war was known.

“He was less a symbol of hope than of extreme social decay and despair.” (4)

Isa Tai claimed special powers to resist the ‘white man’s bullets’. He called for the first ever Sun Dance to be held, for it was not part of Comanche culture. A runner was sent carrying a pipe of war to the other four peoples: southern Cheyenne, Arapaho, Kiowa and Kiowa-Apache. They agreed that the slaughter of the buffalo must be halted. They decided to attack Adobe Walls. “

[BruceB]

Not to confuse Bear Claw any further than he already is, but my Shiloh works just fine with wheelweight alloy, thanks kindly. It also shot fairly well with linotype, when that was my most-available alloy....as well as it shot with anything else, anyway.

I see no downside to shooting AVAILABLE alloy in a rifle which works rather well with it, and I seriously doubt that the ghosts of the buffalo runners will sneer very hard at my efforts in using "their" rifles. My rifle seems quite content with its diet, but also I must add that I'm NOT a BPCR competitor. A few percentage points of antimony or whatever may cause purists to get the shaky collywobbles, but it doesn't matter to me (or my rifle).

As to consistency, my .45 rifle bullets typically show EXTREME WEIGHT SPREADS, lightest to heaviest, of a grain or two on bullets in the 400-550-grain bracket, and that weight is pretty consistent from batch to batch...in wheelweight alloy. That tolerance will suffice for my efforts.

The mention of getting a case of black powder reminds me that Maine Powder House, at

www.mainepowderhouse.com

sells case lots of black at reaonable prices, and pays the shipping to boot. They stock Swiss and other brands, and the site is worth a look.

[Nueces]

I just Love that story............... Bear Claw:drinks:

Hey, Bear Claw, that sounds familiar to me, too. I believe this was written up in a recent Precision Shooting magazine, probably one of their 'resting places of famous riflemen' pieces. When I get home, I'll check.

Mark

[John Boy]

Aged WW** .080-.083 14 Bhn (est)
For what it's worth, I test three WW ingots that have been laying in the garage and are about 18 months old ... Bhn 15.3
They were all melted from the garden variety weights that are 96.4% Pb

[Nueces]

This is in answer to Bear Claw's post #57. The feller he referred to was George Farr, age 62, who, shooting an issue National Match '03 and issue NM ammo, ran a string of 70 straight bulls in competition at the 1921 National Matches, until the light finally failed. He had left the line once, because he had run out of ammo. He resumed shooting at the urging of the range officer (and a crowd of onlookers), who all scrounged ammo for him. The story, told in Precision Shooting, April, 2006, says he most likely would have won the match had he received faster service from the target spotters, as the light failed. He did come in second. He couldn't afford to purchase the rifle he had used, so other competitors took up a collection and bought it for him. The next year the NRA donated the Farr Trophy, to be awarded to the high-scoring Wimbledon shooter.

Mark

[Bear Claw]

This is in answer to Bear Claw's post #57. The feller he referred to was George Farr, age 62, who, shooting an issue National Match '03 and issue NM ammo, ran a string of 70 straight bulls in competition at the 1921 National Matches, until the light finally failed. He had left the line once, because he had run out of ammo. He resumed shooting at the urging of the range officer (and a crowd of onlookers), who all scrounged ammo for him. The story, told in Precision Shooting, April, 2006, says he most likely would have won the match had he received faster service from the target spotters, as the light failed. He did come in second. He couldn't afford to purchase the rifle he had used, so other competitors took up a collection and bought it for him. The next year the NRA donated the Farr Trophy, to be awarded to the high-scoring Wimbledon shooter.

Mark

Yes Sir
That's the guy, Man I love that story, He must have been one heck of a guy, thanks for lookin that one up:drinks:

[13Echo]

To see just what George Farr did go to this url and read the article. It is amazing.

http://www.bobrohrer.com/sea_stories/end_of_an_era.pdf

Jerry Liles