Odd Behavior with .30-30 and Unique

[jreid]

Hi,

I'm new to posting, but I've been reading and reading and finally have a question that seems to be unique to my rifle. It's a Marlin 336w with microgroove rifling, and it shoots jacketed great. I clean it after every 20 shots or after I get done shooting which ever comes last. The result is, with the barrel clean the first shot is dead center every time. Since I mostly shoot paper, cans, milk jugs, etc., I don't feel the need to blast out 30.5 gr. of h4895 behind a 150 gr. jacketed bullet to hit the target only about 70 yards away. So I gave cast a try and now I'm hooked. :smile:

So, I got some Hunter supply .311 dia. 165 gr. cast bullets with 15 bhn. I loaded up five with 8.5gr. of unique, five with 17.5 gr. H4895, and five more with 18.5 gr. of H335. I then shot the five with H4895 and it was very accurate and didn't leave any lead. I then shot the five with Unique and gray streaks were visible as far as I could see down the barrel from the muzzle. However, it was very accurate. I then tried the five with H335 and it was just as accurate as H4895, and no lead. So, wanting to use Unique, I reduced the load down to 8.2 gr. thinking that it might be going too fast. This time it left lead in the first inch or so of the barrel. So, I increased it to 9.0 gr. and the leading was very bad at the muzzle.

I've read tons of gleaming stories about Unique in the .30-30 with cast, but it just doesn't seem to work in mine. I would use H4895, but if I shoot 5 shots today and then a few days later shoot a couple more, I don't want to be cleaning after every 5 shots. The few times I have left the residue of H4895 in the barrel, the next day I saw very small specs of rust! :groner:

So, until I can figure out what's happening with the unique, when I shoot, I shoot unique, then follow up with a couple H335 shots which cleans out the lead.

If anybody can give me some advise, it would be greatly appreciated. I've been trying to figure this out for several weeks, but I've found nothing that helps. :killingpc

Thanks
-Jon

[MikeS]

I can't help you with your leading problems, but I would suggest that there's a middle ground between cleaning your rifle, and not cleaning it. If you get a bore snake, than when you're done shooting, rather than doing a full cleaning, or just leaving the gun as shot, you could run the bore snake down the bore a couple of times with a little bit of bore cleaner on it, and it will remove the powder fouling without having to give the gun a full cleaning.

[GabbyM]

May be a little high pressure with over 8 grains of Unique and a plain based bullet I assume.

I have the Saeco 140 grain plain base boolit. We tried 8.0 grains of Unique at first.
It shot OK but would build up gray wash after a couple dozen rounds degrading accuracy. So I cut that to 7.5 grains. Many of the guys use pistol primers in light loads of fast powder to avoid the primer pushing the bullet forwards before powder gets up to pressure. I’ve not tried that yet but plan to.

[williamwaco]

Hi,

I loaded up five with 8.5gr. of unique,. I then shot the five with Unique and gray streaks were visible as far as I could see down the barrel from the muzzle. So, I increased it to 9.0 gr. and the leading was very bad at the muzzle.

Thanks
-Jon


8 to 9 grains of Unique is a very popular load with cast bullets in many rifles.

I use 9 grains of Unique in my .35-55 ( Same case as .30-30 ) but with a 240 grain bullet. Velocity is just a whisper over 1200fps. It is very accurate at 100 yards.

Two possibilities: Your smaller bore diameter might be producing higher pressure and your lighter bullet might be going too fast. Either might cause leading.

Another possibility I consider more likely:
Most commercial cast bullets use a very hard lube that works great at higher pressures but fails miserably at velocities in the 1000 to 1200 fps range. Next time you are at the bench. Take a handful of those bullets and re-lube them with LLA. You don't need to remove the existing lube, just give them a slight coat of the Lee Liquid Alox. If you don't have any LLA, use any alox based lube you have and apply it by hand.

Be sure your bore is clean and try the Unique again.

See:

http://www.reloadingtips.com/pages/lla_bullet_lube_2.htm

for another example of this problem.

[Marlin Junky]

Clean your barrel very well and start with 7 grains of Unique and the .311" boolits. Your 8 grain charge could be doing 1300-1400 fps which may be both too fast and too much pressure for a BHN 15 boolit. Are you sure they are BHN 15? What are they supposed to be lubed with? Are they .311" all the way around?

MJ

[Baja_Traveler]

I agree with WilliamWaco - the lube is the culprit. I've used that exact same load of 8.2gr Unique and 165gr PB cast. I've never experienced any leading problems whatsoever, but I lube with Carnuba Red.

[Junior1942]

8 to 9 grains of Unique is a very popular load with cast bullets in many rifles.

I use 9 grains of Unique in my .35-55 ( Same case as .30-30 ) but with a 240 grain bullet. Velocity is just a whisper over 1200fps. It is very accurate at 100 yards.

Two possibilities: Your smaller bore diameter might be producing higher pressure and your lighter bullet might be going too fast. Either might cause leading.

Another possibility I consider more likely:
Most commercial cast bullets use a very hard lube that works great at higher pressures but fails miserably at velocities in the 1000 to 1200 fps range. Next time you are at the bench. Take a handful of those bullets and re-lube them with LLA. You don't need to remove the existing lube, just give them a slight coat of the Lee Liquid Alox. If you don't have any LLA, use any alox based lube you have and apply it by hand.

Be sure your bore is clean and try the Unique again.

See:

http://www.reloadingtips.com/pages/lla_bullet_lube_2.htm

for another example of this problem.+2 on this good advice.

[frkelly74]

I would certainly give the old tumble lube a try on those boolits.

[geargnasher]

I looked those up, appears to be a bevel-based design. You just learned something important about shooting cast boolits vs. jacketed: GENTLE LAUNCH. You were having good results with powders that have a slower "pressure-time curve", meaning they build pressure more slowly than Unique and give that fragile boolit a gentle start into the rifling, and it's fully engraved and accelerating up the bore at least an inch or so before peak pressure is achieved. With the Unique loads, the peak pressure of the burn is happening much sooner, perhaps before the boolit even leaves the case neck. The result can be powder gases rushing by the boolit while it's in the throat, and those high-pressure gases will "cut" or abrade the boolit and blow off some of the lube, depositing lube and lead dust up the barrel ahead of the boolit. The subsequent passage of the boolit "irones" the lead dust into the barrel steel, causing the streaks you see.

In order to prevent leading of the bore, you have to make sure your boolit seals the bore from primer strike to muzzle exit, that's the whole secret to preventing leading with cast boolits. Keep that in mind as you load and look for causes of leading. Picture any point in the process where gas can leak by the boolit, because it will probably lead from that point forward to the muzzle. This "seal" is called "obturation", meaning blockage.

Unique can and does work well with cast boolits in the .30-30, but if you're shooting boolits that don't have gas checks, you might need to back the load off even more, or use a filler behind the boolit to help keep the seal.

One more thing to check, load a dummy round and then pull the boolit with an inertial puller, then measure it carefully on the driving bands. If the boolit is smaller coming out than it was before going in, you might need different reloading dies that don't squeeze the case neck so small. Most factory dies make the case neck small enough to hold .308" boolits, and that's too much neck tension for .311", relatively soft, cast boolits. If the cases are swaging the boolits undersized when you seat them, they are likely to lead the bore. All the Micro-Groove .30-30s I've seen prefer a .311 boolit for best results, so make sure it's still .311" when it's fired!

Gear

[Tim357]

Also, If you have a copy of, or can locate a copy of Lee's first edition reloading manual, there is a great chapter on reduced loads for cast bullets. Worth the price of admission, in my experience.

[Three44s]

Lots of good advice here!

First rattle out of the box try reducing the Unique load a bit.

If that does not solve your leading ......... then I'd try LLA over the top of your existing boolits. As Gear says, if you are shooting bevel based slugs .... that alone will raise challenges. If reducing the Unique charge or adding LLA does not help, I'd relegate those bought cast boolits to the loads that did work to your satisfaction and get ready to cast your own if you care to.

As a microgroove barrel you have potentially fine lead shooter but it will take some work for faster loads. Some get their microgroove barrels going with fire lapping. But that's jumping a tad far right now.

KISS .......... Keep it simple ......... first.

Three 44s

[jreid]

Thanks for all the help!!!

I have seen the bore snakes, but never thought of trying one.:idea:

I think first I'll try starting over at 7 gr. of Unique. If that doesn't do it, I'll get some of the lube. I'm not sure about being bevel based. They're squared off with the bullet and perfectly flat.

I checked the bullets before I ever shot them and they are .311. I'm using a classic Lee Loader and at first the necks were too small, so I started tapping the decapping rod through the neck before loading the cases. The decapping rod is about .310 according to my measurements. They still shave off a tiny bit of lead, so the next ones I load will have to be flared before the bullet goes on.

I have no idea on the lube that's on them, but it seems to rub off on my hands and it feels waxy/oily. The thing I don't understand is no lead with the slower powders. I'm sure they are leaving the barrel faster than the Unique loads because when they hit dirt, it leaves a long crease, and I never can find the slug. With the Unique loads, it doesn't leave a very long crease in the dirt and I sometimes can find the slug. They also shoot about 4 inches lower than the other powders. I like the idea of using rifle powder, but I'm kind of nervous about lowering the charges any more than recommended. In fact I kind of stepped out on a limb with the H335. I could only find one source on the 18 gr. being minimum.

The really odd part is I first got the Unique powder to reload for my Ruger Blackhawk in .357 mag. I had started out reloading with W231 and six shots at 20 yards made a group that a half dollar could fit over. Then when I switched to Unique, it shot everywhere but where I aimed. I thought it was me until I went back to the W231. So now I'm trying to use it in the .30-30, and it just doesn't seem to work.:?:

By the way, I forgot to mention in my first post that the cases that have fired the Unique have a band of lead around the outside about 1/16" wide. Also inside the neck is all gray where as with the other powders the cases are just as clean as if a jacketed bullet was shot out of it.

I'll probably try out the 7 gr. of Unique tomorrow, so we'll know if that fixes it or not.

Again, thanks for all the help!
-Jon

[geargnasher]

The thing I don't understand is no lead with the slower powders. I'm sure they are leaving the barrel faster than the Unique loads because when they hit dirt, it leaves a long crease, and I never can find the slug. With the Unique loads, it doesn't leave a very long crease in the dirt and I sometimes can find the slug. They also shoot about 4 inches lower than the other powders. I like the idea of using rifle powder, but I'm kind of nervous about lowering the charges any more than recommended. In fact I kind of stepped out on a limb with the H335. I could only find one source on the 18 gr. being minimum.

By the way, I forgot to mention in my first post that the cases that have fired the Unique have a band of lead around the outside about 1/16" wide. Also inside the neck is all gray where as with the other powders the cases are just as clean as if a jacketed bullet was shot out of it.

I'll probably try out the 7 gr. of Unique tomorrow, so we'll know if that fixes it or not.

Again, thanks for all the help!
-Jon

I endeavored to explain why here, give it another read. The peak pressure occuring before the boolit is fully engraved/sealed in the bore with the Unique is probably the cause of your troubles, including the lead ring on the case necks. This has nothing whatsoever to do with muzzle velocity, and I'm quite sure your Unique loads are much slower than the others you posted.


You just learned something important about shooting cast boolits vs. jacketed: GENTLE LAUNCH. You were having good results with powders that have a slower "pressure-time curve", meaning they build pressure more slowly than Unique and give that fragile boolit a gentle start into the rifling, and it's fully engraved and accelerating up the bore at least an inch or so before peak pressure is achieved. With the Unique loads, the peak pressure of the burn is happening much sooner, perhaps before the boolit even leaves the case neck. The result can be powder gases rushing by the boolit while it's in the throat, and those high-pressure gases will "cut" or abrade the boolit and blow off some of the lube, depositing lube and lead dust up the barrel ahead of the boolit. The subsequent passage of the boolit "irons" the lead dust into the barrel steel, causing the streaks you see.
Gear

Let me put it another way: Unique burns fast compared to the other powders you used, like driving a tent stake with a tack hammer swung hard. H335 is more like tapping it gently with a 5-lb sledgehammer. Which will dent the head more? Unique will because the energy, though lower, is delivered in much less time. Managing and balancing the pressure-time curve of the powder with the boolit weight, barrel caliber, and case volume is one of the big challenges with shooting cast.

Gear

[Old Goat Keeper]

Also, If you have a copy of, or can locate a copy of Lee's first edition reloading manual, there is a great chapter on reduced loads for cast bullets. Worth the price of admission, in my experience.

In the second edition it is not a whole chapter but IS still there on page 105.

T-o-m

[jreid]

Gear, Thanks for explaining it some more. I also went and read the earlier post again. I kind of had an understanding of it, but now I think I've got it. So, I could probably push it faster than I have been with the slower powders, because, it is in the barrel when the pressure really pushes. Instead of the pressure pushing all the way from the start of movement. The company says that those bullets are good to around 1600 fps. However, I don't really need all that speed for shooting what I shoot.

I guess now I need to get the Lee reloading Manual to see about other powders that burn slower, and maybe perform better than what I have.

I've got four empty cases that I primed a couple days ago that will get the 7.0 gr. of unique this afternoon. It's just a matter of time!

-Jon

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I use the Lee 309-170 in my 336 30-30 with the the 18-19 gr H4895 with very good results

i can see were a lighter bullet might not get H4895 to burn clean , i started down around 15gr and got good accuracy very low recoil but soot , 18-19 behind what probably end up closer to 180 gr of boolit , don't have a scale to measure over 110 gr yet and it cleans up considerably


i have used my own lube , it is a soft grease and wax based lube , i have used 50/50 nra formula alox bees wax , and i have used strait LLA all worked no leading no rust , i do run a patch or 2 then an oil patch when ever i shoot , but i have a 30 cal 1 piece rod that sits in the corner it only takes a minute to push a patch thru

a pull type cleaner would be very handy for just such a thing


h414 might be just right for slower speed in a reduces load Lee lists it for 30-30 170gr boolits and speed seems to gain much slower than with other powders

[jreid]

Ok, I loaded 4 cases with 7.0 gr. of Unique and the 165 gr. Hunter supply bullets. The first thing I noticed, was that they shot about 3 inches right at about 50 yards compared to where the others shoot. The case necks still had that ring of lead around them, but it wasn't as wide. The Barrel still has a few streaks of lead at the muzzle, but now the first inch of the barrel has lead in it pretty thick (when I shine a light from the muzzle, I see a rough surface for the first inch).

I think since the H335 and H4895 does not leave lead, I'll be developing a load with those powders. As for the Unique, well it might work for some custom M80's.8-)
Seriously, I guess I'll just keep loading around 8 gr. of unique which is accurate, and then instead of working on the bore for an hour to get the lead out, just shoot a couple with either H335 or H4895. It actually cleans the barrel pretty good. I've also read that Unique works well with jacketed bullets, so I might try my hand at that since a have a few hundred setting around.

My unexperienced thoughts are that the bullets are too hard to use with Unique. If a softer bullet was used with the lower load of Unique, it wouldn't leave the lead in the first inch. Also being softer, it could expand the base some to seal better and not get cut by the gas. ..just a thought with no proof!

Thanks for the help.
-Jon

[geargnasher]

H414 gets a little screwy in the .30-30, some manuals have removed the listing of that powder for .30-30 altogether. It does work pretty well with heavy boolits, though, if you pay attention to what you're doing. H335 and 748 seem to be a little more stable, but the burn rates have been all over the map lately, so work up carefully.

I'm finding that a faster, single-base powder like 4198 or Reloder 7 are the bee's knees for 150-170-grain cast boolits in the .30-30, even loaded way down to plain-based velocities. Might burn a little dirty, but very accurate and the pressure curves are about right.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Oops, missed your last post! I have another theory: Have you THOROUGHLY de-coppered the bore before trying to shoot cast through it? Copper fouling will grab lead off the boolits like crazy, and the worst copper buildup will happen in the first few inches of the barrel. I know you say the other loads don't foul, but the effect of copper fouling could be worse with the dynamics of the Unique powder.

As for softer boolits, yes, it might help the Unique loads work better, but not unless you have better control over how much the case neck is being resized. When you get below a certain point of hardness, the neck tension needs to be reduced to about .001" interference to prevent boolit swage when seated.

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

The Unique load is simply not driving the bullets fast enough for the hard wax lube to work. The other 2 powders are. Suggest you at least tumble lube the bullets with LLA. Preferably soak the bullets in solvent (I use white gas or Coleman fuel with the bullets in a coffee can) for 45 minutes or so and wash off the hard wax lube. Use LLA to tumble lube them. Load them over the same Unique load or 5.5, 6 or 6.5 gr Bullseye.

Larry Gibson

[adrians]

maybe as an early xmas gift to yourself you could get some casting equip, and get from pot to target on your own terms on your own time at your own speed and the end result will be a very happy (but addicted ) boolit shooting junky.
don't worry you are not alone were everywhere, and proud of it .
your choice of using unique in m/g 30-30 will come to fruition and it'll be very satisfying and most of all fun.
get the lead out and have fun doing it:-P
adrian....:evil::cbpour::twisted:

[jreid]

I 'think' the bore is clear of copper. After shooting the copper I can see copper colored streaks. I use Birchwood & Casey Bore scrubber, 2 in 1 gel. I fill the bore and let it soak for an hour. Then I run a brush through about a hundred times. Then push patches through it alternating with the brush until the patches come out clean. One time I put the gel in a second time and no more dirt came out, so I guess it gets mostly everything. After cleaning, I can't see any streaks of copper, so I guess it gets cleaned out.

The next thing is to get some lube to relube the bullets. I guess I might as well start casting my own, then I can make sure it's right from the beginning. Sometimes I like to shoot jacketed, but I like cast better.

Another little side note; in the Ruger blackhawk .357 mag., I also shoot the Hunters supply bullets that are 125 gr. When I load them to max listed for lead, which is 5.5 gr. of w231, they don't leave any lead in the barrel. However, when I load them kind of soft (maybe 5.2 or 5.0), they have a tendency to leave some lead. But I don't really care for the revolver because they shoot very very accurate, and I have the Louis Lead Remover which removes about 75% of the lead. But, the Louis Lead Remover doesn't fit down the .30 barrel.

-Jon

[725]

+1 on the factory lube being too hard to work at lower pressures (speeds). Boolit fit to your bore is worth examining. If copper remains in the barrel from it's former life as a J-bullet shooter, you might try to clean it further. I use janitorial strength ammonia to attack the copper. I mean attack, too.! Swab the bore with a couple wet patches. Let it sit for a minute or two. Do it again with a couple more wet patches. When the green/blue color subsides, dry patch it and wash it down with a good oil. Use several oil wet patches to remove all traces of the ammonia. Copper is tough on boolits' accuracy.

[Me not you]

I have a dumb question.
Would a soft cast bullet be more likely to "skid" rather than be grabbed and spun when shoved into this kind of rifling with a hot, fast pressure curve? That would result in significant leading.

[geargnasher]

Though the grooves are slightly shallower with Micro-Groove rifling than ballard rifling, the number is greater, and the engagement surface area (sides of the lands) is actually greater. It isn't really possible to "strip" the boolit especially with soft boolits. The greater the pressure, the greater the tendency for the boolit to expand and grip the rifling. Col Harrison did some tests that showed how difficult it would be to actually strip a boolit in the rifling.

Gear

[Mk42gunner]

It sounds to me like your boolits are on the verge of being too small, I have a Marlin 30AW that slugged .312". They are working with the gentle push from the slower powder, but seem to be gascutting with the faster powder.

Robert

[rond]

I use the 165 grain FP from Missouri Bullet Company with 10 grains of Unique for a good plinking round. The rifle has a short throat and I trim the cases shorter than normal so the bullet just kisses the rifling when crimped in the groove. These are .309 dia. and I have no leading.

[MtGun44]

I've never had any good results with crayola lube in rifles. Boil 10 in water to remove the
lube and put some 50-50 in the grooves and try that.

Have you slugged the bore? Many microgroove bbls are a touch oversized and .311 is
right for a .308 bbl. Maybe too small for your particular one.

Bill

[Baron von Trollwhack]

There are easy things to try after you carefully clean the barrel. Using your 8.5 grains of unique load, put a drop or so of LLA on a piece of saran wrap and lube about 20 of your bullets, by forming a little pouch and moving the boolits around to lube them very lightly all over. The intent is to provide just a very light coating to dry & try.

Next try pushing a 1/4 square of TP, folded a little down hard on the unique on the plain bullets, Third, do both, TP and LLA. I have had this work using the 31141 in a 94 without the GC. Honestly though, 10 grains of a 50/50 NRA lubed boolit with a GC will touch 3 or 4 of 5 @ 100 yards When I can hold it there. Any loading that does not lead enough to open up a group will leave a mirror-like bore in my rifle.

BvT

[Larry Gibson]

I have a dumb question.
Would a soft cast bullet be more likely to "skid" rather than be grabbed and spun when shoved into this kind of rifling with a hot, fast pressure curve? That would result in significant leading.

With a BHN of 15 likely not. The Unique load is not "hot' and is actually quit mild. I've shot thousands of such loads with 5.5 - 6.5 gr Bullseye in 30-30s (out of Micro'groove marlins also though i prefer Winchesters), .308Ws, '06s and several others without worry. I use a much softer alloys.

Larry Gibson

[jreid]

I slugged the bore several weeks ago. I just found the slug that went through and remeasured. With the micrometer tight on the groove mark it measured between .3080 and .3085. With the micrometer just loose enough for the bullet to turn a little, it measured between .3085 and .3090. I measure several of the bullets and they are all .311.

This evening I shot several more of the 8.5 loads, and this time there were few gray streaks. I looked from the breech end and with a light at the other end, there was hardly any lead in the first part of the barrel. Just a thought, I havn't cleaned the barrel for around 15-20 shots, so maybe it's just getting going with the lead.

I just read some reviews on the LLA. I'm ordering the stuff!!! Does anybody have a recommendation on where to order from? I would order from Midwayusa, but their shipping seems to be very high. $7.65 for shipping doesn't sound right for a $4.99 bottle, and I've never seen it locally.

Thanks
-Jon

[JohnH]

Add another for lube being your problem. I shoot two plain base boolits from a Marlin 336 and from a Savage 340 using 8 grains of Unique and no problems whatever in over two years of using them. The first boolit is the Lyman 311008, it is a 115/116 grain boolit meant for the 32-20. The second is the RCBS CW 30-150. My boolits run in the 11 BHN range, but I don't think 15 BHN is your trouble, if they fit goo that ain't too hard for your work.

I use felix lube (do a search here, others explain far better than I) and I leave it soft. (some harden it up) Larry hit it dead on, the load simply doesn't make enough pressure to make the lube flow. While there are better explainations out there, suffice it to say that lube works by a combination of factors, a primary one being compression. when the load is fired the boolit shrinks slightly, bulging at the base. This forces the lube to bear agaisnt the bore. (at least so it's thought, no one has ridden one yet to know what really happens, even though we have suggested this idea to a nice young lady...)

Anywho... Do a search on tumble lubing with Johnsons Paste Wax. You can lube your store boughts this way and you won't see that lead strak anymore. and as ridiculous as it sunds, keep shootin it some, you may find that it is only a streak of color that does not accumulate or degrade accuracy in any way.

[kostner]

Cast a few hundred 309-150-f today and used gas checks on them. If I were to use light loads of 8 grains of Unique then there would be no need for for gas checks? Keeping my speeds around 1000fps?
Just planning on shooting them in a indoor range for fun. Are they accurate out to 100 yards?

[kostner]

Cast a few hundred 309-150-f today and used gas checks on them. If I were to use light loads of 8 grains of Unique then there would be no need for for gas checks? Keeping my speeds around 1000fps?
Just planning on shooting them in a indoor range for fun. Are they accurate out to 100 yards?

[geargnasher]

Sounds like the dimensions are right.

MidwayUSA charges an extra handling fee for orders under $20 or something like that. If you want to try the LLA, go ahead and order a Lee bullet sizer kit in .311", it will come with a bottle of the stuff and I'm sure you could find a use for the sizer some day [smilie=1::-D

...You might go ahead and pick up a Lee 150-grain 30-caliber mould and some gas checks, soon you'll see how much money this hobby can save you :twisted:

Gear

[edit] Kostner, looks like the forum lag got you too, I just had to delete two duplicate posts of this one.

[Larry Gibson]

Cast a few hundred 309-150-f today and used gas checks on them. If I were to use light loads of 8 grains of Unique then there would be no need for for gas checks? Keeping my speeds around 1000fps?
Just planning on shooting them in a indoor range for fun. Are they accurate out to 100 yards?

Your rifle can give you the answer to accuracy. Best accuacy I've gotten consistently is with thatbullet cast soft and loaded over Bullseye to 1150 - 1200 fps. Faster than that with Unique and I got good results one day, poor the next. With GCs accuracy was always good with either powder.

Larry Gibson

[jreid]

soon you'll see how much money this hobby can save you:twisted:

Sure, sure I know how much I'm spending to save $?.?? how much???:veryconfu
I feel like this thing is getting out of hand. $35 for the scale because I don't feel comfortable loading a pistol with the Lee dipper set (Ka Boom!), $40 here because if I buy these bullets in bulk it saves .05 per shot, $60 because I got hooked on lead and it's $x.xx cheaper than jacketed, and, if I've got a single action revolver I have to have a holster and belt because no other way of toting it looks right. :guntootsmiley:
Seriously, I have spent some money and there seems to be no end... However, I like shooting and I like cast bullets so I guess there really is no end!

I found a 4oz bottle of LLA on amazon for $3.55 with only $3 for shipping, so it's on its way. I also found a bullet puller for about half price what I was going to pay. And seeing as how I accidentally pushed a bullet in too far, and then a couple misfires with Winchester primers, that was a necessity.

When the lube arrives, I'll let ya'll know how it works.
-Jon

[uscra112]

+1 on the hard lube theory. I had this problem when I first started to shoot cast through my .35 Rem Marlin. Boughten .357 SWC "hard cast" boolits, with that hard blue wax on 'em. Low velocity - leading and poor accuracy. In desperation (or frustration) I cranked the load up to 1800 fps, and lo and behold, no leading and it would shoot 2 M.o.A. until I ran out of ammo. Wasn't until I read Glen Fryxell's article on how lubes work, many years later, that the light went on.

[mroliver77]

When you get cast shooting well you never have to clean your barrel. Also 100 strokes with the brush is way too much. You are probably cleaning from the muzzle. The rod rubs on the rifling and will wear the muzzle causing loss of accuracy. Most use a cheapo aluminum rod...yuck! They are nasty! They will imbed grit and quicken the wear.
After shooting I will run 1 or 2 wet patches of Eds Red bore cleaner through my barrel IF I will not be shooting for a while.When getting ready to shoot again 1 wet and 2 dry and I am done.

If I get lead in the barrel when working with a new boolit or load I wrap some copper pot scrubber (chore boy brand) around a bore brush until it fits tight in the barrel. A couple of strokes with this takes lead right out.
J

[303Guy]

After shooting I will run 1 or 2 wet patches of Eds Red bore cleaner through my barrel IF I will not be shooting for a while.When getting ready to shoot again 1 wet and 2 dry and I am done.I do that too, only I use Hoppes #9 'cause I like the smell.

[jreid]

You are probably cleaning from the muzzle.

Nope. I may be new to cast, but I have a tendency to read more than I post. I have never cleaned my rifle from the muzzle. And nope, I use one of those steel coated rods because of the same reason I don't clean from the muzzle. Sadly I do have to clean the Blackhawk from the muzzle though.

An update: I shot some more of those 8.5 gr loads and at 65 yards I actually put two bullets through the same hole, and the third bullet was about a half inch away! I was using a rest this time.

-Jon

[uscra112]

When you have to clean from the muzzle, take a .243 case, drill out the primer so you can slip it over the rod. Instant bore guide for cal .30 and up !

[geargnasher]

You pull the lever, lock bolt, and breech bolt every time you clean? Might I suggest a tapered brass muzzle guide the correct size for your steel cleaning rod? That's what I use, wish I could find a Nylon one, that would be even better. Carbon fiber rods are nice, too, as long as you keep them wiped off so grit doesn't embed.

Gear

[edit] Uscra, you beat me to it!

[jreid]

You pull the lever, lock bolt, and breech bolt every time you clean?

Not really. One screw removes the lever. Then the bolt just slides out, and the ejector just falls out. It literally takes 15 seconds. I like to look down the bore before and after I clean. You can't do that with the bolt in the way!
Is there some reason that I should be cleaning from the muzzle? I always heard that it was better to clean from the breech.

-Jon

[geargnasher]

Usually better to clean from the breech, but threaded connections wear out eventually and there's no harm cleaning from the muzzle with a properly sized steel rod and muzzle protector bushing, only pull the breech bolt occasionally when putting the gun away for a while or to clean/lube it. Good idea to keep a film of clean grease in the lock bolt rails too.

Gear

[mpmarty]

I always pull the bolt and clean from the breech on my Marlin '95. As it doesn't lead at all I don't clean it that often. I usually open the action and shine a bore light in from the breech end and look in from the muzzle to see the clean shining spirals.

[popper]

Try a couple of patches ( 50 cal) using a length of weed wacker cord, through the breach. Works like a bore snake, but at no cost. I use a figure 8 knot, punch a small hole in the patch. I shoot the Unique 170 gn CB load with 50-50 and have some leading, it cleans out easily. I'll try the TP plug and see if that helps. I use H4895 but have not noticed the rust problem

[jreid]

Ok, the LLA arrived yesterday and last night I coated 7 boolits. This afternoon I again put 8.5gr of unique in the cases and shot the seven boolits. There was absolutely no leading as far as I could see from the muzzle. However, there was still the lead ring around the case neck and the first inch still has the lead built up in the barrel. It took 4 boolits of the H335 to finally remove the lead in the first inch.

The next thing to try is the LLA with either the h335 or h4895. I guess the Unique is just too fast. I'm starting to think about looking into some sort of filler to reduce the gas cutting if I'm going to keep using Unique.

Just another quick question. Can I use the LLA on boolits that are already loaded into cases? Meaning just coat the part that is sticking out of the case. Or would that work?

Thanks
-Jon

[popper]

You can also mix the LLA with JPW (50/50). Smells good too. I use the Unique and half-jacket pill to clean out the lead - also make a real fun/cheap plinker. Just coat the drive band of loaded rounds, probably won't help much. I wipe the loaded noses to get any blobs of lube off, better accuracy.

[popper]

If your rifle has a large throat, the Unique load may not stretch the case enough to seal, blow back of powder and lead will coat the mouth. I'm playing with leaving the flare (i.e. no crimp) and annealing to reduce the problem.

[jreid]

There's probably something wrong with what I'm about to say, but it works. I don't resize the brass if I'm going to be loading lead into it. When I did resize the brass/necks, the bullets were going in crooked making the necks out of line and really throwing accuracy way off. At about 65 yards the ones with the necks out shot about 6-8" away, while the ones that were normal were grouping about 1 inch.

I would try loading some without the crimp, but the bullets are already kind of loose in the necks. Loading them in the magazine tube would push the bullets down in the case! Sounds like leaving the flare might work if the throat is too big. I might try some and just load them one at a time.
Just thinking about it, the cases that had the bullets that had the LLA were all coated with a very thin film of LLA or something. It felt greasy sort of like the lube, so mine probably does have a large throat.

-Jon