45-110 scene in "QUIGLEY"

[juniorsonic]

Well, I just saw Quigley Down Under for the 1st time, and I must say I really enjoyed it. One thing I am wondering, though, is about that part where Selleck demo's the Sharps rifle on the wooden bucket. Is that cartridge/rifle really capable of that kind of performance given the operator is on his game? Is there anyone who actually has real-life experience shooting the BPCR in 45-110 at such great distance?

[Don McDowell]

Not only is the 45-110 capable of that sort of accuracy, but many other cartridges as well.
Yes there are several hundred shooters that shoot the 45-110 in matches with distances from a few hundred yards to 1 mile.

[Chicken Thief]

I remember seing a show at the tube yrs ago with a guy shooting a 45-100 to 120 (cant remember) at a white buffalo silhuette at 1000yds. The black kill zone was a 12" gong and he nailed it three times in a row after sighters.

But standing offhand, hmmmm.

[Chicken Thief]

Shot by a member here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RazDsknjkfM&NR=1

[Chicken Thief]

Here's the clip i saw back then:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRaRCCZjdTM&NR=1

[Gunlaker]

Here's the clip i saw back then:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRaRCCZjdTM&NR=1

I believe that was Dave Gullo of Buffalo Arms shooting. I've never met him, but I sure have bought a lot of his stuff :-)

Chris.

[littlejack]

The rifles and cartridges are definately capable of the accuracy seen and discribed above.
The failing point that was not mentioned, is being able to guess accurately, and I mean very accurately to within a few yards, the distance. At the ranges mentioned above AND the (bucket range in the movie) boolits are on a very steep down angle drop and missing the range by even a few yards would mean a miss.
The BPCR shooters know exactly the range they are shooting and they know the exact drop of their boolits at that range.
My 45-70 sighted at 100 yards, drops 30" at 200 yards. That bucket looked a lot further than 200 yards to me.

Jack

[405]

"..... this one will shoot a might ferther". :)

Anyone can find tons of logic flaws/errors in ANY fiction movie (and most so-called non-fiction documentaries for that matter!). If the writers and directors had no license to compress or cherry pick for effect, most movies would just drag badly, go flat and wouldn't be watchable.

I don't know where the bucket at 200 yards thing comes from??? It is most assuredly much father away!!! Just do a little math with the horse running for however many seconds at 25-35 MPH.

I've watched the movie countless times since it came out and it is still enjoyable- excellent movie and story.... if you don't start the "ya but" this and that every time an error is perceived.

Yes, the big Sharps are quite capable of astounding long range accuracy. The weak link is usually the shooter.

"..... you can substitute a 450 #2 British musket lead". :)

[littlejack]

My point was, I could guess the 30" at 200 yards for my rifle.
How much do you figure Mathew Quigley was guessing at the buckets range?
Read between the lines.

[405]

My point was, I could guess the 30" at 200 yards for my rifle.
How much do you figure Mathew Quigley was guessing at the buckets range?
Read between the lines.

OK, reading between the lines... simply get onto a free online ballistics calculator like JBM and put in the numbers. It will crank out some fairly close estimates for trajectory. And with a little playing with the calculator will give equally good estimates for rear sight adjustments out to whatever range you wish. But as with any calculator... junk in- junk out, so careful entry of parameters is critical. I've found the estimates to be very close each time I've tested it against known (actual shooting) results.

[NickSS]

I have watched Quigley a number of times adn find it entertaining every time I watch it. I have no doubt that a Sharps 45-110 can shoot accurately to a mile. I shot a 1200 yard bulls eye match in Canada a number of years ago and managed to score a 47 6V out of a possible 50 with 10 Vs. We used the old 5V 1000 yard target where the bull was about 50 inches and the V ring was around 20 inches as I recall. I shot it with my Shiloh 45-70 Long Range Express and I did not come close to winning the match. A guy shooting a Parker Hale Volunteer rifle (1858 Enfield in 45 caliber won the match with a 49-9V. The only doubts I have is range estimation by mark 1 eye ball that Quigley did in the movie and holding a 13 pound rifle off hand and making hits at the ranges he did. The most unbelievable shot in the movie was at the guy driving away full speed in a wagon and Quiggley hitting him in the head with one shot. Now that is hard to believe especially as he was beat up pretty bad at that point.

[Tom Myers]

I was raised around cow horses and working quarter horses and know a little about what a good horse can and can not do. The rider that carried the bucket out to the hill was mounted on a fine looking quarter horse. Good quarter horses have a reputation for being able to run flat out and maintain a constant speed speed for approximately a quarter of a mile. The rider was at full gallop when he snagged the bucket and never slacked speed until the sound of the pistol shot. When the pistol fired that horse went into a stiff-legged, butt-dragging quarter horse stop so there was very little deceleration time to calculate.
Some time ago, after researching the top speed of horses entered in sanctioned quarter horse races around the country, I ran some calculations to determine the range of the bucket shot. I do not remember the exact speed of the top racers or the number or seconds that the bucket carrier ran but, if I remember correctly, it figured out to approximately 820 yards to where the bucket was placed. So theoretically, Quigly could have have known the range to within a few yards.
I know that a good BPC rifle is accurate enough to make the shot but I would imagine that it would require a superb athlete with extraordinary hand-eye coordination to acquire a stable sight picture and make that shot from an offhand firing position. But then that's what heroes and movie characters are. Right?

[405]

I have watched Quigley a number of times adn find it entertaining every time I watch it. I have no doubt that a Sharps 45-110 can shoot accurately to a mile. I shot a 1200 yard bulls eye match in Canada a number of years ago and managed to score a 47 6V out of a possible 50 with 10 Vs. We used the old 5V 1000 yard target where the bull was about 50 inches and the V ring was around 20 inches as I recall. I shot it with my Shiloh 45-70 Long Range Express and I did not come close to winning the match. A guy shooting a Parker Hale Volunteer rifle (1858 Enfield in 45 caliber won the match with a 49-9V. The only doubts I have is range estimation by mark 1 eye ball that Quigley did in the movie and holding a 13 pound rifle off hand and making hits at the ranges he did. The most unbelievable shot in the movie was at the guy driving away full speed in a wagon and Quiggley hitting him in the head with one shot. Now that is hard to believe especially as he was beat up pretty bad at that point.

You got that right about the quartering away wagon driver :) Range estimation plus moving target plus off hand.... but sure makes for a good movie!

littlejack,

Don't know about your gun and load in the 45-70 as to rear sight MOA increase out to distance.

Here's my C Sharps 45-110 with long staff installed and the PP round I shoot.
Barrel is 32" standard heavy. Sight radius is exactly 36". PP bullet is tapered- swaged flat base, BC. is approx .320. Bullet weight is 520 gr. MV for load is 1270 fps. Center of front sight is 1" above center of bore.

For the above gun and load using the JBM calc. with my gun zeroed at 100 yds. I need about 28 MOA more rear sight height increase to zero at 300. I need about 135 MOA more rear sight height increase to zero at 900 yds. I don't think the movie specified the exact bucket distance so 900 is as good as any.

It's been 15 or so years since I shot out to really long ranges. Played around shooting the long range Buff gong at Raton one calm afternoon. Had no trouble hitting it everytime once I got the windage doped. IIRC the JBM numbers I've run since are right on the money as used for that shooting. But, hitting that Buffalo gong casual shooting is completely different from bullseye competitive shooting. Apples & oranges :) BTW the gun as it is set up and from a rest is capable of 5 shot 3" groups at 300 yds. with the best being about 2.6" at 300 yds.

[RMulhern]

Those shots would have been much more believeable....if he had been prone or sitting!

[littlejack]

405:
I guess i'm missing your point. I'm not trying to argue with anyone. I have never shot with a bpcr at the distances mentioned. I haven't shot at those distances with any of my smokeless high power rifles.
I AM very impressed with the shooters that do shoot at those distances and hit there mark.
What I AM saying, is that if one uses the distance that Tom mentioned (820) yards and/or the distance that you mentioned (900) yards, a person better be able to guesstimate either range very close, without the use of a BC.
We all know that this situation in the movie, did not really take place. I do not believe that there are but a handful of shooters in the world that can judge distance that far, that accurately with any consistancy, let alone the first try at that distance.
Where in the world did you get the idea to use the balistic calculators. We were discussing the failing point of the shooters ability of guessing the range. I must have missed the part where Quigley peeked at his BC.
Yes, the rifle and cartridge will do the job. But, without a rangefinder I believe the bucket would be safe.
I love verbal jousting.
Good shooting to you all.
Jack

[Chicken Thief]

The one really big fault in the movie that bugs me every time is:

Towards the end where he shoots two fellas at the porch with one shot, the bang comes after the hit.

[SharpsShooter]

The one really big fault in the movie that bugs me every time is:

Towards the end where he shoots two fellas at the porch with one shot, the bang comes after the hit.

Bullet got there before the sound did.........

SS

[SamTexas49]

Dont forget the Story ! Mathew had been using this Rifle a long time in Wyoming ! Made is own reloads etc. We need a 2nd Quigly Move !!

[Freightman]

That movie is also capable of taking all the money out of your pocket for a long time! ask me how I know!

[405]

405:
I guess i'm missing your point. I'm not trying to argue with anyone. I have never shot with a bpcr at the distances mentioned. I haven't shot at those distances with any of my smokeless high power rifles.
I AM very impressed with the shooters that do shoot at those distances and hit there mark.
What I AM saying, is that if one uses the distance that Tom mentioned (820) yards and/or the distance that you mentioned (900) yards, a person better be able to guesstimate either range very close, without the use of a BC.
We all know that this situation in the movie, did not really take place. I do not believe that there are but a handful of shooters in the world that can judge distance that far, that accurately with any consistancy, let alone the first try at that distance.
Where in the world did you get the idea to use the balistic calculators. We were discussing the failing point of the shooters ability of guessing the range. I must have missed the part where Quigley peeked at his BC.
Yes, the rifle and cartridge will do the job. But, without a rangefinder I believe the bucket would be safe.
I love verbal jousting.
Good shooting to you all.
Jack
Jack,
"My 45-70 sighted at 100 yards, drops 30" at 200 yards. That bucket looked a lot further than 200 yards to me."

YOU commented about bullet drop and how much your sights would have to be adjusted to hit the bucket in the movie..... the ballistic calculator will do that if you put the info for your gun and load in the calculator.

Actually, we're in complete aggreement. :) The shooting as depicted in the movie is likely beyond human ability. The errors would be huge. While pushing the limits, the equipment depicted in the movie may have the capability (BTW, Shiloh built the Sharps rifles for the movie). But fictional stories are not made to show the cut and dried ability of a piece of equipment. Good movies are stories about human interactions- the yin-yan, good vs evil woven in an entertaining fashion sometimes with a romantic twist thrown in.

[Tom Myers]

What I AM saying, is that if one uses the distance that Tom mentioned (820) yards and/or the distance that you mentioned (900) yards, a person better be able to guesstimate either range very close, without the use of a BC.
We all know that this situation in the movie, did not really take place. I do not believe that there are but a handful of shooters in the world that can judge distance that far, that accurately with any consistency, let alone the first try at that distance.
Where in the world did you get the idea to use the ballistic calculators. We were discussing the failing point of the shooters ability of guessing the range. I must have missed the part where Quigley peeked at his BC.
Yes, the rifle and cartridge will do the job. But, without a range finder I believe the bucket would be safe.
I love verbal jousting.
Good shooting to you all.
Jack


Littlejack,

I remember when I was a youngster, on our ranch in the Sand hills of Nebraska, there were no roads as such, just two tracks in the sand, winding through and over the hills. People reckoned distance from one place to another by how long it would take someone riding a horse to get from one point to another. What I am implying is that, in those days and in a horse oriented culture, a different frame of reference was used for various measurements and estimations.

Of course there were no Ballistic Calculators, as we know them, in those days. But, if one knows the sight settings of a vernier sight for various ranges for a particular rifle, no range-drop calculation is needed. One only has to be able to control the range of the target.
As a horseman, and well acquainted with the speed of a running horse, Quigley could very well have been mentally counting seconds from the time the rider snagged the bucket until he told Marston to signal the rider to stop.



The one really big fault in the movie that bugs me every time is:

Toward the end where he shoots two fellas at the porch with one shot, the bang comes after the hit.


That is one thing that I noticed. References were made as to the time frame between the bullet impact and the sound of the shot.
Maximum muzzle velocity of a rifle with that much powder capacity and bullet weight would not be much over 1500 fps. so the bullet would drop below the speed of sound at around 300 yards. In all instances of ranges over 300 yards, the sound of the shot would be heard at the impact point before the bullet arrived.

[juniorsonic]

WOW!! Some really amazing/informative posts! I am with the one guy who mentioned a 2nd Quigley movie!!:-P

[littlejack]

I will 3rd that.

[Hardcast416taylor]

If my old memory serves me correctly? Our site member Mike Venturino was the tech advisor to Mr. Selleck on using the Sharps rifle for the movie correctly. I also seem to remember they used 3 rifles in the making of the flick due to scenes of rough usage.Robert

[405]

IIRC that is correct about Mike V helping Selleck get up to speed with the Sharps. I cringe every time watching one of those Shiloh rifles hit the ground :(.

As to the time of flight in the double-hit scene. Exact distances are not specified in the movie but the director used license to enhance the effect. He could have had the bullet get there before the sound, during the sound or after the sound.

For perspective, depending on conditions & altitude, the speed of sound is about 1125 fps so it goes 1000 yds in about 2.7 seconds. The bullet/round as depicted in the movie, would go the 1000 yds in about 3.2 seconds.

[Tom Myers]

WOW!! Some really amazing/informative posts! I am with the one guy who mentioned a 2nd Quigley movie!!:-P

Would not the title to the "Quigley Down Under" movie sequel be something like?


"QUIGLEY UP ABOVE"


http://www.tmtpages.com/web_images/ShilohQuigley_small.gif




I've got a bad cold today and probably took too much Nyquill.

[Chicken Thief]

Bullet got there before the sound did.........

SS

Yes and thats the fault!
If boolit ans sound start at the same speed then boolit will slow and sound will get ahead. So boom before hit not as in the movie where it is hit and then boom.

[SharpsShooter]

Yes and thats the fault!
If boolit ans sound start at the same speed then boolit will slow and sound will get ahead. So boom before hit not as in the movie where it is hit and then boom.

Sorry, given that the speed of sound is 1125 ft/sec and a 45-110 starts at 1270 ft/sec, the boolit has a 145 ft/sec lead that will grow until the boolits velocity drops below 1125. At that point, the boolit is 450 feet in the lead or 150 yards. Now sound has to play catchup. The continued velocity loss of the boolit will aide the sound in catching up and eventually passing the boolit. Without knowing the exact distance involved it cannot called fault. I feel safe to say that at 300 possibly 400 yards, you would not hear the shot.............

SS

[EDK]

I ain't much competition to the other guys going to the Quigley shoot. Other posts have given numbers on boolit velocity and the speed. They use a radio with the microphone wired open behind the steel targets at the Q to expedite scoring...a second or two for boolit in flight and the same for THE SOUND OF THE HIT to come back to the shooter and you use up a lot of time, even with two relays going at each of 6 targets.

If you go to the Q on Monday or Tuesday like I do, the crowd is small enough to get your sight settings checked out and be able to listen for the "ding" without a spotter. Then you can walk around and visit while the late comers are in panic mode because of the crowd or rain or ? 2010 had some pretty heavy rain. 2011 was wet...and more on the way when it was cancelled.

It is three days drive (1300 miles,) four days to shoot and visit, two days for the match, and four days back to Saint Louie.

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[Chicken Thief]

Sorry, given that the speed of sound is 1125 ft/sec and a 45-110 starts at 1270 ft/sec, the boolit has a 145 ft/sec lead that will grow until the boolits velocity drops below 1125. At that point, the boolit is 450 feet in the lead or 150 yards. Now sound has to play catchup. The continued velocity loss of the boolit will aide the sound in catching up and eventually passing the boolit. Without knowing the exact distance involved it cannot called fault. I feel safe to say that at 300 possibly 400 yards, you would not hear the shot.............

SS

Given:
520gr boolit BC .32 and 1270fps then at 270 yds the boolit goes subsonic and at 330 yds sound and boolit are on par.

Checked the movie at 1:31:42 the shot hits and at 1:31:44 the report comes. That's a full 2 seconds from hit to boom.

I stand by my claim good sir! Boom before hit or at the wery least at the same time. 2 seconds are pure BS.

[SharpsShooter]

........for the reading impaired..................."I feel safe to say that at 300 possibly 400 yards, you would not hear the shot"............. since we do not know the distance...........moot pont

It is inconsequential.



SS

[405]

:mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I noticed the possible discrepency the first time I saw the movie. But, I'll defer to the license of the director for enhancing the effect of the scene. I didn't get too tightly wrapped around the axle about it.

Previously in the movie the boss quizzed one of his lackies about the time between report and bullet hitting.... to get some sense for the distance of the shot. Also, in the double hit scene, it is hinted that the shot came from the cut in the hogback and if you listen carefully, you can hear an echo in the sound of the report.... error or not in bullet timing that was an excellent duplication of what a distant muzzle report actually sounds like in rough, rocky country. Those subtle sounds in movies like that have to be fabricated... they are usually not real time (nat) sounds recorded at the time the scene is filmed. A fine detail that is often overlooked by casual audiences- hats off to the production crew for that one.

[Tom Myers]

Sorry, given that the speed of sound is 1125 ft/sec and a 45-110 starts at 1270 ft/sec, the boolit has a 145 ft/sec lead that will grow until the boolits velocity drops below 1125. At that point, the boolit is 450 feet in the lead or 150 yards. Now sound has to play catchup. The continued velocity loss of the boolit will aide the sound in catching up and eventually passing the boolit. Without knowing the exact distance involved it cannot called fault. I feel safe to say that at 300 possibly 400 yards, you would not hear the shot.............

SS


SS Thats pretty darn close.

When calculating ballistic velocities and times of flight, if one needs to find an average velocity over a certain range, a close approximation (not exact but quite close) is to take the square root of the muzzle velocity times the impact velocity.

We wish to know when the bullet has traveled far enough for the sound of the shot to catch up to it.

So if we set up a simple equation with the known variables being the Speed of Sound (lets call it SS =1125 fps) and the Muzzle Velocity (MV = 1265 fps). We can now define the unknown variables ( "T" as the time it takes for the sound to catch up to the bullet, and Passing Velocity of the Bullet ( PV).

We want to find the distance at which the time of the average velocity and the time of the speed of sound are the same

Velocity x time equals distance, so then

SqRt( MV * PV) * T = SS x T

Subtract T from both sides of the equation and we have

SqRt( MV * PV) = SS

Now, square both sides of the equation and get

MV * PV = SS Squared

Now plug in our known values

1275 * PV = 1125 * 1125 = 1,256,625

Divide both sides of the equation by 1275 and we have

Passing Velocity, 1 * PV = 992.65 fps

We canceled our Time variable in the equations so we don't know the elapsed time, therefore we cannot calculate the distance but we can rely on a good Ballistics Calculator for the distance that it takes for the bullet to slow to the Passing Velocity. In this case and using a bullet with a adjusted, working Ballistic Coefficient of 0.407, the sound of the shot would overtake the bullet at 371 yards in an elapsed time of 1.00581 seconds.

I used a 40 caliber bullet but the results would be the same for a 45 caliber bullet with the same ballistic coefficient and muzzle velocity.

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/SpeedofSound/SOS-catchup.gif

Ain't this FUN/

[SharpsShooter]

Thanks Tom. I haven't used math like that since high school or college. I gotta get your software. It appears to have more bells and whistles than my current program.

SS

[Tom Myers]

Thanks Tom. I haven't used math like that since high school or college. I gotta get your software. It appears to have more bells and whistles than my current program.

SS

SS Thanks for the compliment. If you think the current software has bells an whistles, you gotta see what the New Ballistics and Load Records software is gonna have.

It is being evaluated as we speak and if all goes well it will be available before the end of the year.

The new software has been a long time in the oven. Mostly because of problems adapting it to the new Windows 64 bit systems.

A sneak peak at the new software is now available on-line in the on-line help files for the Precision Ballistics Help (http://www.tmtpages.com/New_Prec_Bal/Help/cnt.htm) and Precision Load Records Help (http://www.tmtpages.com/New_Prec_Rec/Help/Precision_Records_Help.html)

There will actually be two versions of the Ballistics and Records packages. A Basic version without the Bells and Whistles and the Pro version which will have firearem and component image storage abilities, cartridge drawing capabilities, cartridge OAL calculations, complete automated inventory of components and loads as they are being assembled and fired, digital target scoring, storage and retrieval, target printing, wind vector applications, headwind and tailwind effect charts, etc., etc.. examining each of the help file pages will give a general idea of how the software is set up to help one be a better shooter and to enable a more productive reloading operation.

[Lead pot]

If you ever pull targets in the pit when they are shooting from the 1000 yard line you will hear the crack of .45-110 bullet going through the target before you hear the rifle. Only the soft what I call chicken loads of the .45-70 will you hear the rifle before the bullet passes through the target.

[Don McDowell]

Guaranteed you'll here the bullet snap before you hear the shot, when the distance is 300 yds or more, even with highpowered stuff, and it is a sound you don't forget......
It takes a 45 caliber bullet 3-4 seconds to reach a 1000 yd target. If that gong is radioed, you will get the radio report quite a while before you hear the natural thwonnngggg.

[juniorsonic]

Yeah, it's just like in F-Class/Palma matches when I'm in the target pit, and the "crack" that comes from a .308 sounds like a .22 (which is the bullet arriving & breaking the sound barrier) comes first. Then, about 2 seconds later, the muffled "boom" comes in from the 800-900-1000 yard line. I have often wondered: if the projectile goes subsonic before arrival, will there be NO sound? Simply the dirt splash & then the delayed "boom" from the muzzle blast?

[BruceB]

There were dummy replicas made of the Shilohs, and the dummies were used for the rough-and-tumble scenes where the rifles were abused, dropped etc.

**********

I spent considerable time in the pits at target matches, using mostly the .303 MkVII/VIII service loading. These bullets stayed supersonic to around 700 yards.

Beyond that, the butt party had to watch the impact area closely to detect shots on "their" target. The noise from the bullet was VERY moderate and often they passed overhead unheard. There would be a quiet "tick" as the bullet passed through the target, but it too was often unheard if any commotion was going on.

In infantry training there was much mention of the "CRACK-THUD phenomenon, with "crack" representing the passage of the bullet and "thud" being the sound of the shot. This was simulated by clapping one's hands together and then thumping one's chest with a fist. It was a poor simulation but it did get the idea across to trainees.

[405]

Dummy, prop rifles- I figured that when using them for clubs and such they used props. If ALL the rough handling scenes used props I won't cringe so much just flinch a little- can't help it :)

[Don McDowell]

Watched the clip. If you allowed the horse 35 mph that would put the bucket at 700 yds. In the film it takes about 2 seconds for the shot to hit the bucket. Ballistic calculator says a 540 gr .444 bullet at 1400 fps takes 1.97 seconds to travel 700 yds..
Yup that shots doable and then some...

[ss40_70]

seems to a lot of agony and bother about the sound effects of the movie ... funny no one mentions the only thing that drove me crazy in the movie ... the loose parts rattle sound from a win 94 every time he opened the block ... other than that i spent my time enjoyin the flick an ogglin crazy cora

[Don McDowell]

beats the snot outa felt recoil of 222......

Anyway at the 20th Quigley we all were signing a big poster, that if there were enough signatures, then Selleck would be there for the next year. I inquired as to what it might take to get Crazy Cora and the reply was that she hates guns and there was nothing that would get her to the affair.

[TXGunNut]

Had the pleasure of meeting Mike V in Raton a year or so after Quigley came out and he was indeed an advisor on the movie. Apparently Selleck was a good student and is actually pretty handy with a firearm.
Damn shame I wasn't much interested in BPCR's @ the time.
Let's hold off on the sequel until I get my Shiloh Sharps rifle ordered, OK? Do ya'll remember how long it took to get one after that movie came out?:-(

[RMulhern]

Hey guys....wake the frick up!!

IT WAS A FRIGGIN MOVIE!!

The best part was admiring the tits on Crazy Cora!!

[mustanggt]

That was funny Rick. :D:D:D:D:D:D

[Bill Torzsok]

Good Movie.
Good actor.
Great rifle!

Great tits!

[405]

Well, I just saw Quigley Down Under for the 1st time, and I must say I really enjoyed it. One thing I am wondering, though, is about that part where Selleck demo's the Sharps rifle on the wooden bucket. Is that cartridge/rifle really capable of that kind of performance given the operator is on his game? Is there anyone who actually has real-life experience shooting the BPCR in 45-110 at such great distance?

Well after the inevitable distraction of 6th grade humor that usually enters these type threads :), I went ahead and gave it a go with estimating the "Bucket demo" distance. The best I can do given the horse running at about 35 mph is 810 yards.

After watching the movie countless times since it came out the only reference to a specified distance in the movie, I have found, is also during the "demo" scene where Marston pulls out the want add that Quigley sent back to him. The page is signed, "M. Quigley 900 yards" and next to the notation is a very small cluster group..... as Marston says, "but you had a way with words".

[dagger dog]

Y'all done went and forgot about Billy Dixson's 1700 + yd shot at "The Battle of Adobe Wells" if you want to call it a battle. His over a mile shot that knocked a Comanche buck off his horse is documented proof that the Sharps can shoot!

[405]

Nah, not forgotten. While Q was a fiction movie, the Adobe Walls 50 cal Sharps (most likely a 50-90) shot was real. It was surveyed later at 1538 yards. IIRC, it is recorded in US Military Archives. I think Dixon later and thru his wife's writings, always maintained it was just a lucky shot.

[greywuuf]

No one mentioned the arsenal testing of the 45-70 ? Documented military testing of the 45-70 and ranges in excess of a mile. The test was to determine if the rifle was effective at at " stand off" range to harass block houses and walled structures. I will try to remember and "google-fu" the article and post a link, if anyone else knows what I am talking about feel free to offer it up.

[greywuuf]

here is a link, I can not verify this story but I have seen it in print a number of times.

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook03.htm

ok so it is not Directly comparable, it does show that a Black powder cartridge rifle is still quite deadly at extended ranges, just the little matter or correcting for drop and drift matter more way out there .

[juniorsonic]

Y'all done went and forgot about Billy Dixson's 1700 + yd shot at "The Battle of Adobe Wells" if you want to call it a battle. His over a mile shot that knocked a Comanche buck off his horse is documented proof that the Sharps can shoot!

That MUST have been just a lucky shot because at 1700 yds., you can't even SEE a target without magnification.

[405]

No one mentioned the arsenal testing of the 45-70 ? Documented military testing of the 45-70 and ranges in excess of a mile. The test was to determine if the rifle was effective at at " stand off" range to harass block houses and walled structures. I will try to remember and "google-fu" the article and post a link, if anyone else knows what I am talking about feel free to offer it up.

I imagine you are talking about the Sandy Hook Trials.

Here's a link to a short article about it.
http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook.htm

[BruceB]

That MUST have been just a lucky shot because at 1700 yds., you can't even SEE a target without magnification.

Let's not forget that Dixon was shooting at a GROUP of Indians on horseback. This made a much larger "target" than one individual.

Still, it was a heck of a shot...and a VERY unlucky Indian.

[waksupi]

That MUST have been just a lucky shot because at 1700 yds., you can't even SEE a target without magnification.

Get your eyes checked. I have lobbed shots out that far, and further with a Sharps. And I wasn't using a scope.

[405]

While this thread has wandered around dissecting the trivia of movies and interesting factoids of history it sure beats the heck out of answering questions like, "how much does 50 lbs of lead weigh?".

As far as the Billy Dixon shot... I would guess that he was using 'Kentuck elevation'. Doubt that he first estimated the range to be 1538 yards, cranked up the elevation on the rear sight precisely the minutes required for that range, put the front sight on one or the group of Comanche and squeezed one off. He prolly guessed at something quite a bit over 1000 yards, held over (sight picture into the sky) by the amount he quessed was enough and squeezed one off. What a surprise when one peeled off his horse a few seconds later!!

[Lead pot]

How much does 50# of wet lead weigh?? :veryconfu

There is a lot of controversy about the Billy Dixon shot. Even his Wife Olive even said in one of the books I read that Bill thought it was only 800 some yards.
A friend went to the Adobe walls site last winter and took some lazer ranging measurements from the location and could not come up with a range at that distance on that bluff.
I cant say how far or what ever happen , I wasn't there to see it.

[RMulhern]

I was doing some research reference the Dixon shot several years ago, think the data came from the Texas Historical Site....whereby Dixon had the occasion to meet up with Quanah Parker and this incident was broached. Parker told Dixon that the Indian brave sitting in the group that fell from his horse at the shot had been hit in the leg from a shot that had skipped off a rock and that said brave had recovered from his wound! In another read, info was given that stated that when things were dull around Adobe Walls when the hunters were there that on occasion they would gather up at the rear of the saloon and shoot at a formation on the side of the bluff in question that was shaped akin to a woman's titty and quite often this titty looking formation got a round put on it! FWIW! Like Lead pot....I wasn't there!

[Don McDowell]

If you read the story carefully, a good case could be made that IF Dixon really did make the shot (no one else ever mentions it being done) that he made the shot with the 44-90 he actually owned at the time, and not the 50-90 he took from the bartender early on, when his 44 was running low on ammo....

[405]

Yep, very few of us were there in 1874 :mrgreen:

The bluff in question is more like a flat topped butte or mesita with a little slope to the top. That distance was measured/surveyed later by an Army engineers unit and is recorded in the record.

If Dixon's rifle had a tang mounted sight it would have to have been the long range variety having at least 4 inches (400 +/- minutes) elevation. I think a barrel mounted "ladder" sight would have plenty of distance simply because of the sight geometry.

Doing the calculator thing assuminig an average barreled Sharps rifle zeroed at 100 yards shooting a 450 gr, 50 cal bullet with a BC of .3 with a muzzle vel of 1400 fps. The amount of additional rear tang sight elevation needed for 1550 yards is about 310 minutes or about 3.1 inches. (I tried it on my long-staffed Sharps and it will just make the additional 3.1 inches.) At the target, the bullet would be going about 600 fps and would take between 5-6 seconds to get there.

BTW there is a whole chapter devoted to this in MLV's excellent book, Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West.

[juniorsonic]

Get your eyes checked. I have lobbed shots out that far, and further with a Sharps. And I wasn't using a scope.

(^^WOW, NICE!!....I see civility, politeness, & manners are DEFINITELY your strong suits!!!:rolleyes:)

Well, it looks as though I may have been wrong in my assumption. I was going on the sight picture I get when viewing a target at 1000 yards. It just seemed likely to me that a man-sized target at nearly 2x that distance would be very hard, if not impossible, to see. However, someone more experienced than I at extreme distances "not using a scope" has shown me the error of my ways.

[405]

js, no you're not wrong in your thinking. The bucket shot in the movie would be one thing, the Billy Dixon shot would be much harder to predict. A small group of Indians on horseback standing on that butte would appear as fairly small specks- maybe even with horse and rider outline. The sight picture would be pretty fuzzy/iffy I imagine. The trajectory as the bullet dropped in to the target would also be steep- so your thoughts about how critical distance estimation is vs POI has a lot of merit. Add in basic bullet drift, wind drift, etc., etc., it would be one tough (lucky) shot. With MLV's permission, I'll take a snapshot of the photo of the Adobe Walls "shot picture" and post here. Additionally, there is another photo and write up of the Billy Dixon shot in Sellers' Sharps book. Both MLV's book on shooting buffalo rifles and Sellers' book on the Sharps are well worth the investment!!!

Photo clip from Mike Venturino's book, Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West.

[TXGunNut]

Both MLV's book on shooting buffalo rifles and Sellers' book on the Sharps are well worth the investment!!!-405

You talked me into it, 405! The Buffalo Rifle book is on my "want" list. Don't forget the book he and Steve Garbe wrote: BP Cartridge and Reloading Primer. They tried to sell me a copy years ago in Raton but I was shooting PPC @ the time, have only recently discovered BP and cast boolits. I learned so much from this book and it's a rare weekend that it doesn't wind up next to my reading chair.:grin:

[RMulhern]

If you read the story carefully, a good case could be made that IF Dixon really did make the shot (no one else ever mentions it being done) that he made the shot with the 44-90 he actually owned at the time, and not the 50-90 he took from the bartender early on, when his 44 was running low on ammo....

Don

Don't think so....if what I've read is right! After the hostilities started....noone wanted to venture outside the saloon which is where Dixon was and the .44-90 was across the street! The shot Dixon made SUPPOSEDLY was made with the BORROWED 50 2 1/2! This speaks LOUDLY to the fact that if the shot was made....it was more than a SCRATCH SHOT; it would have been a totally LUCKY SHOT being as how Dixon had never fired that rifle before!!

Just my opinion based upon what I've read...from Dixon's book!:veryconfu:popcorn::cbpour:

What's the case made for the .44-90??

[Don McDowell]

My case for the 44 is that Dixon said he left his ammo at the store. He and the owner of the 50 both went to the store to get their ammo. ( he also said he started the fight with the 44 but took then went to using the 50 that the bartender had.) The people at the store wanted Dixon to stay, the other guy went back to the saloon with his ammo.
I don't think they traded guns. I'ld be more inclined to literary license by an editor somewhere.

[zardoz]

Well, if everyone is on the Adobe Walls deal, figured to pipe in.

I grew up just a short drive south of the site. Been there many times, and the first time I was still just a baby.

This picture is from shortly after Christmas of 1993. In the picture are my father and sister (taking movies of me, taking pictures of the famous mesa). You have to know how to get there, but Dad always knew the way. He is standing about where the shot was taken from.

A couple of excellent books are the Billy Dixon autobiography, and the incredible archaeological dig study "Adobe Walls: History and Archaeology of the 1874 Trading Post". You can get both on Amazon fairly inexpensive still.

I always thought the Billy Dixon story, would make one heck of a movie.

http://myfiero.com/uploads/27760_.jpg

[zardoz]

Heres another one, of my very first visit to Adobe Walls.

In this picture, is my father with camera, taking pictures of Mom, Grandma, and I am the babe in swaddling clothes in Mom's arms. This was a frame grab, from 8mm film, transferred to digital. Granddad was taking the movie in 1957 or so.

I think this is in front of the buffalo hunters monument.

http://myfiero.com/uploads/27761_.jpg

[littlejack]

Thank you for sharing. You have a rare story to tell. Great photos.
Jack

[Gellot Wilde]

Those are great pictures to be able to see...thank you for posting those.

Has the Buffalo Hunter's memorial gone/been moved now?

[zardoz]

As far as I know, all the monuments are still there.

I was in error, as the baby picture is in front on the native Americans monument. the buffalo hunters monument is squared off on top.

Here is a link to a page with the monuments on it.

http://www.forttours.com/pages/2adobe.asp

Also, the grave of Billy Dixon is there, and has on the inscription his Medal of Honor award. I believe William Olds grave is there to. He was killed accidentally, when his rifle fell, and went off while on a ladder.

Check this link for photos of the Billy Dixon marker, and also has GPS coordinates to the site.

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM1WY4_William_Billy_Dixon

I will dig around in my photos and movies, and see if I can find some more photos or interesting tidbits.

[firefly1957]

Before Quigley in the spring of 1985 from order to receive was 6 weeks cost $961. Ordered long Range express 34" #1 taper barrel 50-3 1/4 chambered for paper patch. It is a Sharps Shilo nice gun bites at both ends shoots real good if I do my part.

[Johnk454]

(^^WOW, NICE!!....I see civility, politeness, & manners are DEFINITELY your strong suits!!!:rolleyes:)

Well, it looks as though I may have been wrong in my assumption. I was going on the sight picture I get when viewing a target at 1000 yards. It just seemed likely to me that a man-sized target at nearly 2x that distance would be very hard, if not impossible, to see. However, someone more experienced than I at extreme distances "not using a scope" has shown me the error of my ways.

Don't forget the effect humidity has on long range clarity. Things that can be resolved and targeted in Montana or Raton are sometimes quite impossible near the gulf coast where I live. Having spent some time in Raton with my Shiloh I can attest to the amazing visual clarity.

Another tidbit: Mic McPherson regularly shoots at the 1123yd buffalo at Raton offhand and hits it often enough to know it isn't accidental. One day, he picked up my 34" 45-90 LRE that was dialed in for the buff - and with the first round from a strange gun, hit the buff offhand.

Never discount luck coupled with talent and practice. :grin:

[mustanggt]

I can tell you that if I hit someone or something at that distance it would be all luck. Someone of Billy Dixon's talent, hard work and smarts is 99.8% skill in my opinion.

[juniorsonic]

Don't forget the effect humidity has on long range clarity. Things that can be resolved and targeted in Montana or Raton are sometimes quite impossible near the gulf coast where I live. Having spent some time in Raton with my Shiloh I can attest to the amazing visual clarity.

Another tidbit: Mic McPherson regularly shoots at the 1123yd buffalo at Raton offhand and hits it often enough to know it isn't accidental. One day, he picked up my 34" 45-90 LRE that was dialed in for the buff - and with the first round from a strange gun, hit the buff offhand.

Never discount luck coupled with talent and practice. :grin:

Wow...That's just.....MAN!!! I could only HOPE to get that good someday. To be able to read the wind & calculate the distance (all without "gadgets") is ONE thing - and it is always impressive. BUT: to be able to do all that PLUS score a first-round hit at that kind of distance is utterly flabbergasting, IMO. (Is flabbergasting even a friggin' word?:shock:)

[montana_charlie]

(Is flabbergasting even a friggin' word?:shock:)
Flabbergasting is ... friggin' is not.
CM

[Lead pot]

A year or so ago there was a Billy Dixon shoot Where they has a life sized silhouette cut of a Indian sitting on a horse and it was hit with out a problem.
To make a shot like that is hard but not impossible.
I cant remember where that shoot was held or who posted it.

[Jim]

Concerning the infamous 'Billy Dixon shot', you might be interested IN THIS (http://powderburns.tripod.com/sharps.html).

[juniorsonic]

Flabbergasting is ... friggin' is not.
CM

Oh, comon now! That's nitpicking, innit? I was only goin' for a bit-o-humor!!![smilie=s:[smilie=s:

[montana_charlie]

I was only goin' for a bit-o-humor!!![smilie=s:[smilie=s:
As was I ... it's just that I never use smileys.
CM

[gandydancer]

and there is the RUB its just a movie. look up the billy dixon shot at adobie walls in 1874 the rifles will do it if the shooter does his part. but off hand???mmmmmmm iffey.

[waksupi]

and there is the RUB its just a movie. look up the billy dixon shot at adobie walls in 1874 the rifles will do it if the shooter does his part. but off hand???mmmmmmm iffey.

You would need to try it out some. We have done off hand shooting at targets some cannot conceive of. As someone stated earlier, the clarity of the air in the west makes such shots possible, and lots of shooting practice makes it very do-able. I still remember with much amusement Bobby Giles and I taking a lot of money in long range off hand matches down at the old Virginia City Montana shoots. And we were shooting business rifles. I believe we actually had an advantage over the dedicated long range rifles.

[Don McDowell]

Rick I think you're right about the advantage of using the business rifle. It's sorta mind boggling what a person can do with one of these rifles when you set your mind to it.

[Finster101]

I am very impressed with the research of what the rifles will do. In context of the movie, Quigly was assumed to be one of the best marksmen in the world. That taken, him making shots others would deem impossible is perfectly plausible to me. How many of us could even dream of making some of the shots that todays top riflemen make? Again, it's a movie, a very good movie, but I think a little latitude is okay.

[omgb]

I once had a lot of time on my hands. As a weather observer at Malmstrom AFB in MT I could go shooting almost every day. I got posted to a RADAR sight up on the DEW line in AK. We worked 12 hr shfts, 6 days a week. While at the shack 2 miles from everyone else, I had a little Ruger 22 auto. I would shoot that thing all day at just about anything, from pine cones to snowshoe hares. We had markers along the runway so I knew the distances. I ran through 3 or 4 100 round boxes a shift for several months. The NCO at the PX had to do a regular order for me. After awhile I got good, real good and using a rest, could drop a round into a gallon jug out at 200 yards 100% of the time. When I returned to Malmstrom I tapered off some but still kept at it. Out back of the base runs the Missouri river. We would lay on our backs on the MAFB side and shoot at an old car wreck on the banks of the other side at a professionally estimated 400 yards ( we did a lot of range estimating in those days, especially when calculating RVR ...runway visual range). Using a Creedmore style hold, I could hit the rims on that car very regularly if there was no wind. This is with a box stock 22 LR and a 6" barrel.


So, what I'm saying is this, the Dixon shot could happen with a guy who practiced regularly and I guess the Quigly shot could happen too although I really doubt that one could do it off-hand with any certainty. With lots of practice a guy can do just about anything with a gun. But...it take lots of practice.

[TXGunNut]

In context of the movie, Quigly was assumed to be one of the best marksmen in the world. That taken, him making shots others would deem impossible is perfectly plausible to me. -Finster101


Exactly! We all know the rifle and cartridge can probably do it but it's a rare man that can pull off a shot like that. Quigley wasn't your everyday shooter, he was supposedly one of the best and this shot proved it to his prospective employer.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

That movie is also capable of taking all the money out of your pocket for a long time! ask me how I know!
That's for dang sure, I have 5 Sharps, with all the loading gear and accessories $20k and still looking for more. (Makes for a nice display at gunshows)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/Picture028.jpg

[otterdriver]

The neat thing, I thought, was how Quigley had his BACK to the horseman carrying off the bucket to the distance. He was timing a known distance in his mind, when he said: "Right about ........there!" Some final adjustments to the sight, and he was set to go. Hope I got that right, its been awhile since I saw the movie. Correct me if I am wrong..

[montana_charlie]

It seemed like that to me ...

[Gellot Wilde]

Matthew who?

:lol:

[cajun shooter]

Anyone who saw the movie should know that his name was BILL!! It was not Matthew as so many have said. Just ask Mary and she will set you straight.

[otterdriver]

I thought it was Roy..

[Gellot Wilde]

It sounded like Roy but was spelt Bill.

[bigted]

lil off subject here...B A Wallace...that hi-wall yer holding...what is it and who makes it...please?

[montana_charlie]

B A Wallace...that hi-wall yer holding...what is it and who makes it...please?
I saw your question when I was rubbernecking through here earlier this morning.
Since BA hasn't answered, I can tell you this much ... it's a Pedersoli rifle, and it's a 38-55.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1370455#post1370455

CM

[montana_charlie]

I saw a movie on the tube last night titled, "Shadow Riders".
It had a younger Tom Selleck shooting a Sharps rifle ... in Mexico.

[bigted]

thanks charlie...i thought it may be but wanted to be sure. and 38-55...my what a nice change from thumpers. my 38 is so heavy i dont take it much but will have to change this as soon as i get the other mirade of stuff done...including allowing the weather to get a bit warmer.

i remember that movie now that you mention it....have to watch it again now and watch for the sharps scene.......guess Selleck isnt a stranger to fine rifles at all! isn't Sam Elliot in that movie as well?

[zardoz]

On one of the Dish HD premium channels, they had "Quigley Down Under" in 1080i high def last night. Great! Recorded that puppy on the HD recorder. First time I had ever seen it in such color and detail.

Anyway, I noted the scene where the Crazy Cora character played by Laura San Giacomo, is holding the Sharps with one arm bent at an angle, and not having any difficulty at all. I always wondered, she must have been pretty strong to do that, for a female of shorter stature.

Then I read, that one of the main prop rifles had a barrel made from aluminum. This was done, it said, because Tom Selleck had to swing the rifle around pretty fast to do the clubbing fight scenes with it, and the regular weight Sharps was just too heavy.

Then, comes to find out that Selleck sent the prop rifle back to Shiloh, and they refurbished it after all the movie damage was done, and installed a regular steel barrel, and gave it back to him.

Interesting trivia I thought.

Loaded up a few dozen more 50-90 cartridges today myself, with newly acquired Swiss 1.5 Fg powder. Plan is put my Thanksgiving dinner in the slow cookers, and head to the range tomorrow bright and early. Then have a good long day shooting the Sharps, my 50 cal muzzleloader, and a couple other guns. Then, come home to a good meal. Can't think of a better way to spend the day at all.

[Chakta]

Chicken Thief I have a friend of mine down in Loouusyanna, that can take his Sharps rifle and hit a 10 inch target at 800 yards with regularity. This man can shoot and was the Texas statee highpower rifle champion a time or two. Yes, those Sharps rifles in various calibers will amaze you with their accuracy. I have one in 45/120 for killing buffalo at 300 yards you betcha, with a 525 grain hard cast bullet.

[Newoldman]

What about this. He could have made an estimate of the range on his trip in. They rode over the same trail, from the rise where the bucket was to the compound.

[waksupi]

What about this. He could have made an estimate of the range on his trip in. They rode over the same trail, from the rise where the bucket was to the compound.


As a guy who has done a lot of shooting with a Sharps at unmarked distances, I don't see this as any big feat. If a person is used to judging ranges, it is not a big deal. If you shoot them enough, the trajectory is pretty much locked in your mind, how the bullet will fly. The sights are just gravy at that point. Any time I shoot a long range rifle, I can visualize the trajectory of the bullet pretty darn close, from firing lots of rounds down range. Something that has really helped, has been being a spotter for many years, and watching the boolit from just ahead of the muzzle, to all the way to the target. That teaches a person more about trajectory at different ranges than all the charts and graphs in the world can ever do.

[Larry Gibson]

Was down in Las Vegas this last week covering the SASS convention for one of our site sponsers; the Powder River Cartridge Company. We sponsor Evil Roy [I]and and have a sinature series of cowboy action loads (45 ACP for "Wild Bunch" and .45 Colt and .38 Special currently with a 357 and 44 Magnum load forthcoming). Yes, it's a tough job but someone has to do it:wink:

Anyways our booth was next to the NRA booth so I got to talk a lot with Philip Schreier (aka; Puxatuaney Phil) who is the NRA Senior Curator for the National Firearms Museum. He had a display of some famous movie guns there. As the show/conference closed and Phil was packing the guns for shipment he asked if I wanted to hold a couple???????:D:D:D

I got to hold [I]the Mathey Quigley Sharps.....made my day to say the least.........:bigsmyl2: Many thanks to Phil, the NRA and those who donate to the NRA Museum.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Oh, I also got to hold (probably fondle or carress would be a better description) John Wayne's M92 he used in True Grit:D:bigsmyl2:

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

PS; I'm not smiling because I had to give them back...........

[Gellot Wilde]

Nice!

[montana_charlie]

If I got to actually hold that Sharps, they would only get it back when they pried it from my cold dead ... well you get the picture.

[Larry Gibson]

If I got to actually hold that Sharps, they would only get it back when they pried it from my cold dead ... well you get the picture.

Believe me....that thought was crossing my mind..........[smilie=l:

Larry Gibson

[swheeler]

I don't know for sure but looking at Phil, I honestly think you could beat him to the door Sharps in hand!:)

[Clinebo]

Nice pics Larry! It must have been a treat to hold those guns!

[jfg]

We sponsor [I]Evil Roy [I]and and have a sinature series of cowboy action loads (45 ACP for "Wild Bunch" and .45 Colt and .38 Special currently with a 357 and 44 Magnum load forthcoming).

Aren't supposed to be any "sponsored" shooters in SASS----correct?

[Larry Gibson]

There are several "sponsored" (that might not be the correct word), just look at the ads in the "Chronicle". Competitors aren't allowed to wear any emblems, etc. while shooting though. Lots of the venders shoot also so if you buy from them then that could be considered "sponsered" by those who purchase products from them. I think not allowing and emblems or trade names on shirts, jackets, etc. of any competitor is about as close as you can draw the line.

The SASS rule under "Prohibited" is; "The displaying of manufacturer’s, sponsor’s or team logos on apparel. Manufacturer’s labels on such apparel or equipment are acceptable."

Evil Roy does not wear any logo, including PRCC's, or including his own for his shooting school.

Larry Gibson

[swheeler]

Oh, I also got to hold (probably fondle or carress would be a better description) John Wayne's M92 he used in True Grit:D:bigsmyl2:

Larry Gibson

The" Dukes 92", you lucky dog, was the "Metals 96" one hole Swede there too?:veryconfu

[Larry Gibson]

The" Dukes 92", you lucky dog, was the "Metals 96" one hole Swede there too?:veryconfu

Unfortuneately no, I would have liked to have seen that one though;)

Larry Gibson

[swheeler]

Unfortuneately no, I would have liked to have seen that one though;)

Larry Gibson

I think a lot of people would!:mrgreen:

[hydraulic]

About that off-hand shot--we were practicing up at the Quigley, last June,(this was on Monday before the shoot was canceled) shooting at the buffalo at 800 yds., over cross sticks, with indifferent success, getting 50% hits, maybe. My parter had brought his grandson along,;16 yrs. old, 140 lbs. We had been talking about getting him interested in BPCR shooting and the week previous he surprised us by taking 2nd in the junior division at Baker. We thought a .45-70 was way to much rifle for him and might discourage him if the recoil was to much. Anyway, he was watching us at the Q and told his granddad he didn't see why we were missing so much, he thought he could hit that buffalo off-hand. Grandpa hands him the rifle and the first off-hand shot was a hit. He shot a half dozen more and was making hits off-hand as often as we were over cross-sticks. Young eyes, lots of .22 shooting using gradpa's ammo and just being a naturally good rifle shot must be the answer, and this was done with an old Pedersoli with a light barrel and those horrible pedersoli long range sights. I tend to think he will duplicate the Quigley shot when he gets that age.

[Lead pot]

I don't know how many of you reading these posts live out in the farm lands when you were Kids and got your first .22 and was able to step out of your door and shoot out in the plowed fields at birds or dirt clots at all ranges from close to the other side of the field 40 or 60 rods distance and just lining the front beat of the target or just holding over and sometimes hitting it but more times it was a very close miss no matter what the distance was.
My point is if you shoot your rifle no matter what the banana trajectory is you learn how to hold it. And yes hydraulic young eyes ans steady hands help. :smile:

[rbertalotto]

As a guy who has done a lot of shooting with a Sharps at unmarked distances, I don't see this as any big feat. If a person is used to judging ranges, it is not a big deal. If you shoot them enough, the trajectory is pretty much locked in your mind, how the bullet will fly. The sights are just gravy at that point. Any time I shoot a long range rifle, I can visualize the trajectory of the bullet pretty darn close, from firing lots of rounds down range. Something that has really helped, has been being a spotter for many years, and watching the boolit from just ahead of the muzzle, to all the way to the target. That teaches a person more about trajectory at different ranges than all the charts and graphs in the world can ever do.

Well said...But it is ALL about knowing the range. Whether accurately estimated, at a know shooting club or with some type of range finding equipment. With the rainbow trajectories were looking at with 45-? cartridges and the like, being off just a few yards is a big miss on a bucket sized target.

When the difference in "hold" between 100 yards and 300 yards is over three feet, hitting anything approaching the size of a bucket at anything over 500 yards without knowing exactly the range is some mighty fine shooting.......or a whole bunch of luck!

Folks tell me all the time that they can hit a "pig" silhouette target at roughly 500 yards on the first shot. I invite them to my range and I've not seen it done yet with a 45-? cartridge. Many time they will do it on the second shot after seeing the impact of the first......And modern rifles can do it first shot most every time.
The reason being is it isn't exactly 500 yards. It's more like 475.......and this 25 yards is a big difference when you are 'lobbing" a bullet at a target........

My "Shooter" app shows that with a 100yd zero, a 500g boolit @ 1140fps will be down 308" at 475yds and down 358" at 500yds................that's over 4 feet! in 25 yards........

Love this thread..........learned a bunch...........Thanks!

[stronghorn]

That movie is also capable of taking all the money out of your pocket for a long time! ask me how I know!

Me too. Have 2 now and look'n at a third.

[Texantothecore]

The ability to estimate range is one of the skills that has become somewhat rare these days because we most often shoot at standard ranges. I suspect if you shot for several years with no marked ranges at randomly chosen objects you would develop that skill.

The ability to off hand shoot a 38" barreled muzzle loading rifle accurately is another one. I have no idea how they did it, but they did.

[StrawHat]

The ability to estimate range is one of the skills that has become somewhat rare these days because we most often shoot at standard ranges. I suspect if you shot for several years with no marked ranges at randomly chosen objects you would develop that skill.

The ability to off hand shoot a 38" barreled muzzle loading rifle accurately is another one. I have no idea how they did it, but they did.


Just owning and using one rifle is a big step toward that goal. With only one rifle, there is only one trajectory to learn and remember. Using it all the time at other than formal target ranges only helps reinforce the learning. I walk with my rifle or revolver and shoot at targets of opportunity, 5 gallon pails, paper plates, etc from varying distances and only from field positions. It really helps you learn what the maximum effective range is for YOU. Unfortuantely, not everyone can practice this way.

[Texantothecore]

Just owning and using one rifle is a big step toward that goal. With only one rifle, there is only one trajectory to learn and remember. Using it all the time at other than formal target ranges only helps reinforce the learning. I walk with my rifle or revolver and shoot at targets of opportunity, 5 gallon pails, paper plates, etc from varying distances and only from field positions. It really helps you learn what the maximum effective range is for YOU. Unfortuantely, not everyone can practice this way.

I am one of those who use only one rifle and that is a large part of the reason. It also does everything well and is a pleasing rifle to shoot.

[RMulhern]

I've pulled targets for a friend in the pits when he was shooting with his BPCR .45 2 7/8 Shiloh and I can tell you now....YOU WOULD NEVER HEAR the bullet that got you....because at 1000 yards the bullet hits paper BEFORE the sound is heard!!

All of you can do all the math you want...but in this case you're wrong!!

[TXGunNut]

I have no doubt I'd be a better shooter if I only had one rifle. For 15 yrs or so I had one primary rifle and I was very good with it, mainly because it was an exceptionally accurate and forgiving rifle. I've had a lot of fun exploring more than a few rifles since then and I'm glad I've been able to dabble a bit in rifles that interest me and satisfy my curiousity about historic cartridges and rifles.
Range estimation is indeed an art form, never shoot against an experienced surveyor if distance to the target is not specified! He'll know the distance, trust me.
I've played in the 1000 yd pits only once but I noticed that some boolits got there before the report, some didn't. It was an experimental match @ the BPCR Nationals in Raton about 15 yrs ago and it seems some boolits dropped below the speed of sound quite early in their travels. Even tho most shooters had never fired @ that distance most adapted quickly and got on target. Very impressive. Many boolits would sail over the target and impact in the berm behind, dropping very fast in most cases.