K-Hornet brass

[Powderpacker]

Anyone have suggestions/advice on fire-forming K-Hornet brass? I have never tried to fire-form cases as small and thin as the Hornet cases. Should I use light or heavy bullets, fast or slow powder ? Any tips on working with these little critters would be appreciated.
Ted

[C A Plater]

Regular .22 hornet load should work. I'd avoid the top end loads but you can make it with factory loads just fine.

[Phil]

Powderwise, the usual suspects; 4227, H110, 296. I use 40 grain bullets in about all Hornet loads. Use normal Hornet loads to fireform. The key to getting good K-Hornet brass without pulling the things in two is VERY LIGHTLY oil the cases. This allows the case to slip a bit during firing so it doesn't pull the heads off.

Cheers,

Phil

[shooterman]

i had way too many case splits with fireforming the k hornet especially with some nickel cases someone gave me. i now form with 2-3 gr of 231 and then case topped off with corn meal. no lost cases but leaves me with a little mess to clean up after.

[leftiye]

Might be good to be sure to anneal them first. Also, FWIW it is possible to fire form with only powder (usually bullseye) in the case, or a small charge with the rest of the case being full of cornmeal or COW. You can seal the cornmeal in with wax, and then you can use them for blanks. Makes impressive noisemakers for the 4th of July if the case is big enough.

[HORNET]

Powderpacker,
The best advice that I can give you on it is not to leave the brass sitting around at the Edwardsburg club very long or that confound Paul will get it.[smilie=1: [smilie=1:
Otherwise, I suggest annealing case mouths. Phil's suggestions above sound logical as well.
If you have any serious problems just give the little buggers to me:twisted: . I'll be going back out there when the weather gets better. I'll find them a good home in my standard Hornet #3 Ruger:roll:
Good luck with the little beasties.

[45r]

roll your brass on a lube pad with a little lube and dont wipe it off. shoot a normal load with 4227 and it will form well without the primer sticking out.my fire forming loads are just as accurate,just a tad higher.your brass will last for at least 10 to 20 shots formed this way.was told this by a guy at T/C when I asked him why my primers backed out sometimes and it solved my fireforming problem in my contender barrel.my K-hornet likes pistol primers and 4227 or vitt N-110.1680 works well also especially with the 50 grainers.296 and H-110 are good but have higher ES in my gun and not as good at the longer ranges.have shot a lot of woodchucks with mine.

[Bass Ackward]

Anyone have suggestions/advice on fire-forming K-Hornet brass? I have never tried to fire-form cases as small and thin as the Hornet cases. Should I use light or heavy bullets, fast or slow powder ? Any tips on working with these little critters would be appreciated.
Ted


PP,

I suppose that everyone here has covered most of the options.

But just so you know how critical this is that you get it absolutely right, of the thousands of K-Hornets I fire formed, I never did anything except load a full charge and shoot and I can't ever remember losing a case.

[Powderpacker]

Thanks for all the good info, guys. It appears the batch of brass ( brand, lot number,whatever) is the determining factor in how easy or difficult this process will be. I'll try the easy way first and if I have problems I'll go to the more complex procedures. We have a week or so of below zero temps (with wind chills waayyy below zero) on the way with lots of lake effect snow so it will be a while before I can start the project.

[Phil]

Hey Powderpacker, good to see another Hoosier here! I'm from down around Fort Wayne.

I hear ya on the cold. Darned global warming eh?

What kinda Hornet ya got?

Cheers,

Phil

[Powderpacker]

Powderpacker,
The best advice that I can give you on it is not to leave the brass sitting around at the Edwardsburg club very long or that confound Paul will get it.[smilie=1: [smilie=1:

Hornet - the main reason all of the concrete was poured by the shooting benches was to make it easier for Paul to pick up brass - - the "handicapped accessible" thing was just an excuse.

[Powderpacker]

Hey Powderpacker, good to see another Hoosier here! I'm from down around Fort Wayne.

I hear ya on the cold. Darned global warming eh?

What kinda Hornet ya got?

Cheers,

Phil

Hey Phil-
I have a G2 Contender 23" rifle barrel to play with. I have the same barrel in 221 Fireball but I'm thinking the K-Hornet barrel might be a better cast boolet launching device.
Ted

[JSH]

I am going to throw my .02 in here.
I have no experiance with the K hornet, I have formed quit a bunch of brass in various wildcat calibers.
I have used the COW, it works, but I don't like to shoot abrasive stuff down my barrel not do I like to waste powder and primer.
You didn't say what type of firearm you are trying this in, most info regarding forming will work though.

From what I have found, you need to keep the base of the brass up against your bolt face. So you want to engage the rifiling with the projectile. I feel safer doing this with a CB than a FLGC.
Or, there is another way around this. Bump up you neck on caliber then size slowly back down until you get a crush fit.
You want the brass to expand out, rather than move forward from the web.
Annealing helps on some fire forming. Virgin brass will save one a lot of headaches or no more than once fired. The once fired may cause you grief if the chamber is a generous one.
What we are trying to do is, keep from having excess head space.

Those of you that are lubing your FF round, I can't see how you are not having web seperations. Bullet seating and sizing does fall into play here though.
Jeff

[Phil]

Hi JSH,

The Hornet poses a somewhat unique problem in reforming to K Hornet configuration. Hornet brass is pretty thin overall and really thin in the neck area. When forming to K Hornet, the brass in the neck, being very thin, obturates quickly and adheres to the chamber wall. The body of the case attempts to stretch out to match the K chamber while the neck is held firmly to the chamber wall and the head is held by the rim against the barrel. Something has to give. Lubing the case lightly will allow the neck to pull back, as it must, to allow the K body to form without tearing the case near the head. Headspace also plays a part in this, it helps if the headspace is held to absoute minimum. Lubing the front part of the case to allow forming is not a new technique. I first learned of it while reading pre WWII American Rifleman magazines probably forty years ago. TAR was a REAL magazine back then, with some very good information.

I have used this technique often. Last summer I was at the range and a fellow next to me was trying to form K Hornets and losing over 50% of his cases to head separations. I oiled some of his cases with a lightly oiled patch and he had no further problems with separated cases. He recently told me he had thus formed several hundred cases since, without failure of any kind.

I don't know for sure, but I'd say that in this case annealing the case necks would tend to make the problem worse. I'd want to try it before I really made up my mind though.

One thing that really helps is to set up a rimmed case to zero headspace on the brass you are going to use in the rifle. Matter of fact, this will help accuracy as well. I have fit and chambered several single shot lead bullet guns thusly and all are capable of long run sub .5 moa accuracy. My own two rifles shoot well under .5 moa, one having made a 90 group aggregate of about .38 moa. Chambering a Hornet or K Hornet with a reamer ground to match the brass you are going to use +.002 or so REALLY helps with accuracy. The big problem with the Hornet goes right back to the thin necks, which promotes unequal bullet pull. I chamber all barrels I fit for MY OWN USE, rimmed or rimless, to the brass I'm going to use in that particular rifle.

Good shooting,

Phil

[JSH]

Phil, thanks. I have a 22 Hornet and a couple of 30-20's. Both of them are in the same boat as the hornet brass wise. I always set my 30-20's up with zeroheadspace or try to.
I can see what you mean after the expalanation of a lubed case. I did a lot of reading on the K a long time ago. After you got me re educated I remebered.
I have to agree with you on the TAR thoughts. I am lucky I have from about1946-47 all the way through the mid 80's. I am missing a few here and there but pick up a few every chance I get.
Jeff

[hornetguy]

I've been shooting my K-Hornet for 6 or 7 years now. I have always just loaded normal velocity loads. Usually a 40gr bullet at about 2600-2700 fps.
If memory serves, I think I've lost exactly one case.
Accuracy, surprisingly, is every bit as good as the formed brass loads.
I use Winchester brass.
I do have some Remington stuff that I formed to be used with cast boolits.
Don't sweat it... just load em and shoot em. They aren't "throw-away" loads... use em for the real stuff.

[Phil]

Hi Hornetguy,

Yes, sometimes if everything is just right it works that way. You are lucky if it does. I have seen several guys break case after case doing it dry though. I'd like to measure the chambers of some rifles that form cases without problems some time just to see what they measure. I'd also like to see what the headspace is on those rifles.
What sort of velocities are you getting with your K Hornet and 40 grain bullets?

JSH,

I used to have TAR from the thirties to the seventies. They disappeared in a divorce unfortunately. The ones from the thirties through the late fifties had a LOT of good dope in them. All political now. Sort of like preaching to the choir. Shooters aren't the ones needing political indoctrination. I get it, I'd rather have some good shooting articles. Problem is, there are no good authors like there were then.

Cheers,

Phil

[Bass Ackward]

I'd like to measure the chambers of some rifles that form cases without problems some time just to see what they measure. I'd also like to see what the headspace is on those rifles. Phil


Phil,

Your not far off IMO. The reamer(s) was everything.

The guy that made the reamers established the foundation. It seems you need to buy a "match" reamer anymore to get tight SAAMI tollerances. And as far as operating went, most guys tended to cut much better chamber dimensions and chamber finishes when a rougher was part of the set. Especially, when they are operated by the "zip and there she is crowd".

Although a rougher for a K-Hornet cartridge wasn't an issue, there were several K-Hornets made with this reamer. No one ever had a problem fireforming brass in any of them. My personal problem was getting the darn things to be accurate on a consistent basis. Much better luck with Mashburn Bees.

[1Shirt]

Have a #3 Ruger, that I had K'd a few years back. Never lost a case or split a neck on a full hornet load, or on the few factory hornet loads that I fired through it. Think that the comments on chambers are right on!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Phil]

Hi Bass,

Yup, it all goes back to the thinner neck of the Hornet. To be perfectly honest about it I'd much rather have the Mashburn Bee due to the better neck thickness. I have a Ruger No.1 Bee and it shoots much better than the Hornet (No.1) ever did. I did, however, get the No.1 Hornet to shoot much better by rechambering it to 221.

I'm so sick of sloppy reamers anymore that I just about want to quit. SAAMI is a joke when it comes to reamer specs. I wish I had some unfired Hornet brass from the early years of production to see if it measures the same as current brass. I'd bet its bigger.

Cheers,

Phil

[SHOTS]

I just load as normal and shoot. The Fire Form loads are just about as accurate as the K Loads. If you are loosing a lot of brass, due to splits, the problem is the brass is hard. Anneal or get new brass. Old brass setting on the shelf for years gets hard, just like work hardening. I have a Contender Carbine barrel in KHornet, and it is a cute little round after it becomes a K. Cant tell much difference in performance, but looks better….

Jim

[Phil]

Jim,

The problem IS NOT just hard brass. You cannot anneal the ENTIRE case. The problem is in trying to blow out a case that is so thin it was never intended to be blown out, in chambers that are too sloppy and headspace that is too sloppy. If you have ONE gun that has never given you problems you have my congratulations but in about fifty years of doing this I can tell you that your experience is NOT the norm.

Cheers,

Phil

[Powderpacker]

[QUOTE=Phil;144708]

" The problem is in trying to blow out a case that is so thin it was never intended to be blown out, in chambers that are too sloppy and headspace that is too sloppy. If you have ONE gun that has never given you problems you have my congratulations but in about fifty years of doing this I can tell you that your experience is NOT the norm."

Phil - You're making me nervous here. I liked it better when the brass was getting the blame for any & all fireforming problems. Ted

[leftiye]

What, and let those lazy, sloppy, cheapskates who make the stuff (brass AND firearms) off the hook?

[Phil]

leftiye,

Most of the stuff being made today isn't worth taking home. Its been quite some time since I've bought a new firearm and likely to be longer still. I just got tired of paying all that money for a do-it-yourself kit. I have to buy brass, primers, and powder but make all the rest of my rifle and pistol bullets out of lead. The only j word bullets I buy are 17-20-24-25 caliber, and darned few of those. Make my own 22 j-word bullets too. If I want to play with a new caliber I just get a contoured barrel blank and fit and chamber it to the cartridge I want to play with on an action I already own. I have lots of molds for the calibers I shoot most and am thinking about getting molds for some of the smaller calibers. Never made a 22 caliber cast bullet but it looks like an interesting excursion into self-flagellation at any rate.

Won't be long until we won't have to worry about the anti's, our own industry is doing the deed to us all on its own with these absurd prices. But, they can always count on military and police markets, eh?

I get so tired of buying a hundred new brass cases only to find at least two or three cases that I just paid about thirty to forty cents apiece for are junk with folded necks or other defects that render them unusable. No QC whatsoever!

Ok, rant mode off for the day.

Cheers,

Phil

[Traffer]

Did not want to start a new thread for this:
Is there anyone out there who could part with a couple of empty 22 Hornet brass? Even one would help. I am experimenting with using 22 Hornet dies for 22LR and 22 Mag Reloading and have to make a steel die that is the shape of the 22 Hornet that will be cut out to hole 22lr and 22mag. I need a Hornet case for a model. I am willing to pay for postage and whatever one thinks this would be worth. Just don't see a need to buy a whole box of 22 Hornet ammo for this though.
Thanks
Traffer