in mouse guns 32 acp and 380

[tackstrp]

In mouse guns 32 acp or 380 will a fast or slow gun powder give less recoil .. Waiting on my chonograph so i can do some testing. just thought i would ask . Have small amouts of Trueblue, Unique, Universal and Zip All that i can recall

[Herb3]

I have never loaded for a 32 ACP but in 380 I have used TiteGroup, Red Dot, Universal, 231 and Power Pistol. I have had the best luck with Power Pistol followed by 231

[HARRYMPOPE]

bulls eye in the 32 ACP works for me.Such little recoil i doubt you could tell.

[9.3X62AL]

Most of my 32 ACP loads get run with WW-231, but Bullseye--Red Dot--and Unique have served as well. All of these shoot quite well, esp. considering the crummy sights found on most 32 ACP pistols.

[dverna]

Burn rate of powder will not affect recoil. This is a commonly held "old wives tale". It will affect muzzle flash and may affect noise.

The burn rate differences are measured in milliseconds. No one can sense that measure of time. So the "snap" people talk about is due to other factors (noise etc).

The only way to reduce recoil is to lower mass or velocity of the bullet or increase mass of the gun.

Look at a recoil calculator (Google to find one) and burn rate is not a parameter.

The other fallacy sometimes alluded to is that a high pressure load recoils more than a lower pressure load. Again, more backyard physics at work.

Many of these "truths" seem to make sense on the surface, but do not stand up when science is applied. Science can be a real bitch.

You will have many people who really believe powders affect recoil. They are not lying. It is why placebos sometimes work. If you believe something - then it becomes your reality.

[tackstrp]

dverma your explanation makes sense to me. mass and velocity

[rintinglen]

Truth spoken above. The only way a powder changes recoil is by adding or reducing the weight of the "ejecta" in the discharge. It is seldom that the difference in equivalent pressure loads will mean much. The "burn rate" is not a factor that is considered when calculating recoil.

[tackstrp]

thanks all . I leaned from your comments. my favoriate store brough rounds for the 32 ACP are federal hdra 65 grain and the buffalo bore 75 grain. Rimrock makes the bullets that Buffalo Bore uses for the 32 ACP or so Rimrock says on their site.

[tommygirlMT]

Okay --- first up --- why the heck are you concerned about the recoil of 32-ACP or 380-ACP ???? --- I mean I wouldnt want to be shot with one --- but it aint like they be heavy recoil cartridges --- I mean mabey if a 6-year old is goin to be the shooting it then mabey other wise a mute point


Secondly --- Im going to have to call fowl on the idea that perceived recoil is only a function of boolit mass and velocity and nothing else --- now if you want to ignor a few smaller factors in the equation such as the rocket like effect of the muzzle blast of the hot gasses after the boolit exits --- then yes actual/empirical recoil is indeed only a function of the boolit mass and velocity --- its that whole equal and opposite reaction thing

Perceived recoil on the other hand is a significantly more complex equation and is best modeled by a complex partially elastic collision model --- Think about it --- if felt recoil was nothing more then boolit mass and velocity then the weight of the gun wouldnt matter --- the shape of the guns stock wouldnt matter --- steel but plate vs. soft cushioned rubber butt pad wouldnt matter --- heavy clothing or no clothing wouldnt matter

It is a complex equation with a non-static impulse curve where both the impacting and impacted objects (gun and shoulder) are partially elastic units (even a steel butt stock rifle has a little bit of give in the action bedding and the stock)

That non-static impulse curve is where the powder burn rate can make a difference --- same difference between a air-impact gun vs. a manual breaker bar with a socket and a stubborn bolt. The impulse curve of the force applied by the air-impact gun can be modled as a high amplitude partial sin wave function where as a manual breaker bar has a much more static impulse function representing the force applied --- the difference between those two impulse functions defines why an air-impact gun applying less total force then a manual breaker bar with a cheater bar will break loose a stubborn bolt when the breaker bar fails to do so

It is also why the felt recoil of two loads generating the same muzzle velocity with the same weight boolit but highly different powder burn rates can have a substantially different felt recoil even in a double blind type test --- the more extreme the difference in burn rates and the heavier the cartridge the more noticable the difference will be

I dont know if the difference in the 32 and 380 would be enough to tell --- but I can tell you for sure that the difference between a 600 grain 73 caliber projectile driven to 1400 fps one load with Herco powder and the other load with Reloader 17 powder and you can for sure as the difference between heaven and hell tell the loads apart on the butt end of the gun --- A little less extreme example --- take the 454 Casull and the 450 Marlin or 45-70 in a long barrel BFR gun both guns pushing 300 to 350 grain boolits at the same velocity but the bigger cases doing so with larger quantities of slower burning powders and you can tell the difference no doubt about it

Oh Yah --- found some reading info for all those who no understand collision model and variable impule curve --- one of the top links on a google search --- http://www.pdhonline.org/courses/s164/s164content.pdf --- that will get you started but a good dynamics 200 or 300 level colege text book would be better reading but couldnt find one of those in full text online to linky linky too

[tackstrp]

tommy girl MT . add age, arthritis, stroke to your comments. I did get a chuckle from your response.

[fecmech]

Okay --- first up --- why the heck are you concerned about the recoil of 32-ACP or 380-ACP ???? --- I mean I wouldnt want to be shot with one --- but it aint like they be heavy recoil cartridges --- I mean mabey if a 6-year old is goin to be the shooting it then mabey other wise a mute point

The .380 can be an impressive round to shoot in an 8 oz. Keltec!

[9.3X62AL]

No doubt about it, T-Girl.......subjective response to objective stimuli can be very different things.

Most of the USA-made factory ammo in 32 and 380 ACP is substantially underloaded from European standards, which parallel original Browning standards. This is often a 15%-20% underload. 900 FPS is supposed to be muzzle velocity of the 71 and 95 grain FMJs, respectively. Add the SAAMI underloading to the short barrels on micro-blowbacks, and 700-725 FPS is about all you get.

Blowback-operated pistols are a bit more vigorous in recoil than are recoil-operated systems, to most folks. I had a Colt Government Model 380 with Browning toggle-link system on board, and the subjective feel of its recoil was significantly less than a similarly-sized Beretta 84F I had at the same time, using the same loads.

You want a sharp recoil impulse from a blowback? Try a Makarov 9 x 18 with full-tilt service loads. It's no Casull, of course--but it still bounces around some with a 95-100 grain bullet running 1100 FPS.

[XWrench3]

what i have experienced if you want to reduce recoil, load less powder. i never noticed any perceptible recoil difference between powders when loading them close to max loads.

[kelbro]

BuffaloBores in a Ruger LCP will wake you up too! Still, that's my favorite pocket pistol.

[swynn]

I have bad hands and a Ketec .32acp.As you know only a two finger grip.
I like to load just heavy enough to cycle the the weapon properly.Accuracy
is no concern with this pistol,but holding on to it is.My powder of chose is
Titegroup.Start with 2 grn and work up..

swynn

[turbo1889]

Hmmmmm, interesting, this has to be the first time I've seen her post on a thread specifically concerning small caliber pistols. You need to understand guys that she has a bad case of magmamitus and has had such since she was just a kid. The 32-ACP and 380-ACP and similar are little more then pop guns to her.

She is correct about powder burn rates making a difference in recoil for the heavy caliber guns and she is correct about the impulse curve making a difference and it being rooted in hard science and it is not just in your head. It’s a matter of derivatives. Velocity is the first derivative of position in respect to time. Very few would argue that velocity has nothing to do with recoil. Acceleration is the second derivative and defines the rate of change of velocity and in firearms is directly related to chamber pressure levels and being the derivative of velocity is directly connected to velocity. The "jerk" is the third derivative and defines the rate of change of acceleration and in firearms is directly related to the powder burn rate and thus although two derivative steps removed from velocity does effect velocity and does effect the felt recoil and with precise enough measuring equipment that is capable of measuring recoil not in terms of total force applied per shot but rather as force applied per millisecond during the shot and thus defining the shape of the recoil curve the effect on recoil of using different burn rate powders is scientifically measurable and quantifiable so she is incorrect in stating it only as perceived and not actual/empirical since detecting the difference is only a matter of instrumentation sensitivity.

Now, all that said, in truth I haven’t noticed any substantial gains in terms of “reduced” or more correctly stated “more easily controlled” recoil in pocket pistols in the chamberings under discussion as a result of loading with slower burning powders. And believe me I know about loading those cartridges with slower burning powders since I’m loading “off the charts” with stuff like AA#9 and Alliant 2400 powder for which there is no published load data for using them in those cartridges since most people consider them way too slow burning for those applications.

Now it is true that I am not loading for recoil reasons but rather for obtaining maximum performance levels that provide velocity levels that match or go beyond European spec. ammunition while still staying within SAAMI pressure levels with heavy for caliber WFN cast lead bullets. Basically, getting all that I can out of the cartridge. Now I do, also, load “cat sneeze” loads that have practically no recoil at all but they don’t cycle the action and with the light behind you it is possible to see the boolits flight as a silver streak to the target so they are definitely low velocity loads.

Now the 9x18 Makarov that is a cool cartridges except for the fact that its unique boolit diameter severely limits boolit choices available short of custom molds and reasonably cheap factory loads loaded in reloadable brass casings are not that common which is how I usually prefer to get my pistol brass if I can’t find range brass for free off the floor of my local ranges.