ATF- The most versitle automotive product for gun care..

[superior]

I was wondering if any of you use ATF in the cleaning/ lubing of your guns.
I've been using it for 20+ years with great results. I leave it in the bore to slowly, but surely clean it while it protects. I oil my gun parts with it as well. I've even tumbled brass with it! Years ago, a mechanic told me it could be used for 1000+1 uses..air-tool oil and hydraulic fluid, just to name a couple. I believe it's the true
"Mystery oil". It's a solvent based lubricant.
I'd also like to know about other easily obtained automotive products that are used by our members in the care and feeding of their guns. I just like the idea of using common houshold products that allow us to take advantage of top-notch technology while letting others "stimulate the economy".:coffeecom

sorry I misspelled versatile :)

[Firebricker]

ATF is one of the ingredients in Eds Red. I use a lot of Eds Red its good stuff one of many things I've learned on this site. FB

[geargnasher]

+1 on Ed's Red. But use Dexron III, not one of the marvel synthetics unless you have lost your olfactory senses.

I'm an ASE Master tech, been in it for a long time, so automotive products are some of the first things that come to mind when I need a certain product for other types of machinery. I've also had the good fortune of being able to attend the SEMA show in Vegas a few times and also many manufacturer's product training, such as Permatex, Ammsoil, BG Products, etc.

Some of the wonder-products include the modern EP full-synthetic, calcium soap-based greases, the new generation of brake caliper slide greases, and the variety of multi-viscocity, full-synthetic oils. Silicones have come a long way as well.

Things I use in the gun/reloading room AND at work: Permatex Anti-seize compound, dielectric grease, Loctite of many flavors, caliper slide lube, and Moly-disulfide EP grease. Other brands include Sprayway wet silicone products, Zep PTFE lube, Kroil, PB Blaster, Meguiar's products for cartridge brass, gunstock, and case-hardened steel polish (NuFinish gets used too), polishing compounds, Dexron III, Honda 0W-20 engine oil, Caterpillar EP grease, Freeze Off, and many others. Oh, yeah, I use a lot of brake cleaner in the gun room as well.

I also use a lot of stuff from the health-food store and pet store.

Gear

[GabbyM]

Mix ATF at 50/50 with Number 1 Kerosene.

It’s suggested in the Ed’s Red formula to make this for an Ed’s Red compatible gun oil.
I just tried it last week an love it. Makes the gun bluing shine like it was waxed. Have used straight ATF for years but thinning it really helps.

#1 Kerosene is used in Ed’s Red. I had some liquid paraffin already for my oil lamps but bought a gallon of K-1 for use in the ER. If electric goes out this winter I probably have enough lamp wax and K-1 to run my oil lamp for a month or two.

[MtGun44]

REALLY unfortunate initials on Automatic Transmission Fluid.

Bill

[geargnasher]

I dunno, Bill, I really like the idea of mixing ATF and K1, but I'd like it even more mixed with the documents chartering the agency and a MATCH.

Gear

[GabbyM]

Same initials and same color.

[swheeler]

:shock:
Same initials and same color.

[cbrick]

I've also had the good fortune of being able to attend the SEMA show in Vegas a few times. Gear

:mrgreen: SEMA is the only show I've ever been to that rivals the SHOT Show. Can't really describe either one, they have to be seen to be believed.

Rick

[303Guy]

I use STP Smoke Stopper as a case lube and also a patch lube. I use it to lube anything that doesn't need low viscosity.

I've known about the properties of ATF for a long time. It's as good a penetrating and free-up oil as any. I never did try it on guns. It is after all, a gear lube and has to endure rather harsh conditions - it's also a 'fluid power' transmitting oil. It's not all that cheap but in the quantities we would use it would be very cheap.

[williamwaco]

I swear by Berryman's B-12.

Been using it in the aerosol can as a cleaner - degreaser for 30+ years. It does a better job and has more pressure than the "gun scrubber" aerosols and cost about 1/4 as much. Around $3 dollars for the same size can as the $12.00 size Birchwood Casey Gun Scrubber.

Use the regular can in my gas tank. When she begins to clatter a little, one can in a full tank of gas will stop the clattering for several months.

Earlier this summer, my neighbor was complaining that he was going to have to buy a new lawn mower. Just couldn't keep it running and three different mechanics had told him it wasn't fixable, needed a new engine.

I convinced him to risk $3 on the chance it might save $300. We put an ounce in the gas tank and sprayed it into the carb like starter fluid. It started right up but quit almost immediately. Every time we started it, it ran a few seconds longer. After about a dozen starts, it was purring like a kitten. He said it was running as good as when it was brand new.

He didn't pay me the mechanics wage, but he did buy me breakfast at Mickey-D's

[Bret4207]

X2 on Berrymans. I think it's better than Sea Foam, and a lot less expensive.

ATF is GREAT stuff. If they'd make it smell like the old Hoppes #9 it would be perfect!

[superior]

I knew there were some very resourceful folks here. I picked up some good info once again!
Thanks for the examples,,,0w-20, B12, smoke stopper as case lube....etc. I didn't mention that I spray my molds with silicone before heating them up, and that;s the only lubing they get! STP oil treatment is high in phosphorous and zinc content and should make an excellent boolit lube additive, as it prevents metal to metal contact under extreme pressure conditions.

[geargnasher]

Superior, if you want high-zinc EP compounds, use Coastal camshaft break-in lube. I've been meaning to try it out as a sprue plate lube since Bullshop is out of pocket, I think it would be the bee's knees if the base can take the temps.

Gear

[rockrat]

X3 on the Berrymans B-12.
Been using the stuff for 40 years. Clean my moulds with it and a bunch of car stuff. Do NOT use indoors though. Or use a toothbrush to clean with as it will just melt it.
Makes a good wasp and hornet killer too

Don't know how many cases of the stuff I have used over the years, but I know it has been a bunch

[wrench]

I use lots of ATF on my guns, in bores, on an oily rag for bluing wipedowns, and sometimes as a light lube.
Also have a half a quart of Mobil 1 someone gave me, I've been using it for years and still have....about a half a quart. Might last me forever.
I shoot in an outdoor winter pistol league, it's been double digits below zero some days when we shoot. Never a failure with a gun lubed with Mobil 1. Can't say the same for some other lubes.
Brake clean, anti-seize, locktite, some Ford teflon grease I got a long time ago, wheel bearing grease, PBblaster, lots of auto shop chemicals on my bench.
Also an ASE master tech.:)

[geargnasher]

I use lots of ATF on my guns, in bores, on an oily rag for bluing wipedowns, and sometimes as a light lube.
Also have a half a quart of Mobil 1 someone gave me, I've been using it for years and still have....about a half a quart. Might last me forever.
I shoot in an outdoor winter pistol league, it's been double digits below zero some days when we shoot. Never a failure with a gun lubed with Mobil 1. Can't say the same for some other lubes.
Brake clean, anti-seize, locktite, some Ford teflon grease I got a long time ago, wheel bearing grease, PBblaster, lots of auto shop chemicals on my bench.
Also an ASE master tech.:)

That's refreshing, one of the best techs I ever worked with was a lady in a large Dodge dealership in Fort Worth. We were the only two out of eight drivability techs to pass the L1 on the first try that year, but she beat my 88 by two questions! I never lived that one down:-D

Gear

[milprileb]

So is Dextron III better than Hoppes or Break Free to clean bores?

Anyone mix Dextron with Hoppes or Break Free ?

Just wondering

[303Guy]

STP oil treatment is high in phosphorous and zinc content and should make an excellent boolit lube additive,That's the main ingredient in my 'waxy-lube' mix. :mrgreen: The wax is there to solidify it. I also add stick lube to strengthen the solid. My ratio is ⅓ of each, melted together.

[superior]

So is Dextron III better than Hoppes or Break Free to clean bores?

Anyone mix Dextron with Hoppes or Break Free ?

Just wondering

I dont think the ATF will clean as quickly as hoppes, but it will clean over time, I believe, as effectively. I have no problem leaving ATF in the bore for as long as a year, while I would want to get the Hoppes wiped out after a day or so, once the expansion cracks have released their contaminants. Break Free is a great product also and provides outstanding corrosion protection, but if I can be crafty and use an automotive product, I will everytime for reasons of economics, as well as, I know the auto industry invests and has invested millions and millions of $$$ on car care products. Listen to the auto techs. They have inside info on the lates wonder chemicals.
"I love the smell of ATF in the morning" lol

[superior]

So is Dextron III better than Hoppes or Break Free to clean bores?

Anyone mix Dextron with Hoppes or Break Free ?

Just wondering

I dont think the ATF will clean as quickly as hoppes, but it will clean over time, I believe, as effectively. I have no problem leaving ATF in the bore for as long as a year, while I would want to get the Hoppes wiped out after a day or so, once the expansion cracks have released their contaminants. Break Free is a great product also and provides outstanding corrosion protection, but if I can be crafty and use an automotive product, I will everytime for reasons of economics, as well as, I know the auto industry invests and has invested millions and millions of $$$ on car care products. Listen to the auto techs. They have inside info on the lates wonder chemicals.
"I love the smell of Dexron in the morning" lol

[geargnasher]

I DON'T love the smell of Mopar ATF+4, or Mercon V, especially when it's well-used or burnt. Sickening odor to that carp. Dexron VI is pretty low-odor, as is BG 3124 full-synthetic. My favorite is Honda ZF, it's about like Singer oil, but red, and has almost no smell. I have a bottle of it by the drill press.

One thing NOT mentioned yet is all the "Wonder" products out there that are pure, worthless garbage. The automotive aftermarket is flush with all kinds of things that are supposed to do everything from magically fix your neglected, worn-out automatic transmission to re-seal piston rings and repair worn valve guides and engine bearings. Slick 50 was successfully sued into submission by the FTC, as were a few others. All that really did was temper the advertising so to make marketing companies less liable when the product doesn't work, or worse. There is no free lunch, if it's worn out, it's worn out. Over-the-counter Injector "cleaners" are nothing more than kerosene and naptha, and all these fandangled oil additives are just a way to transfer money from your pocket to theirs. Modern engine oils have an additive and viscocity-stabilizing package that is a true marvel of petroleum engineering, and about the only thing you could possibly do to improve what's in it is to increase your change intervals and use a real, PREMIUM engine oil filter (NOT orange, yellow, or green, btw, I don't care what the ads tell you), or add a QUALITY product like BG MOA, which is nothing more than an additional surfacant/dispersant package in a long-chain polymer base.

I tend to treat my guns the same way as my vehicles, keep them clean, lubricated with the amount and type of lube necessary for proper functioning under the conditions I'm planning on using them (or storing them), and frequent care and inspections are the rule. Just because I "mothballed" a gun a year ago with the best anti-corrosion products I can come up with doesn't mean it's still ok, it needs a checkup from time to time.

One more thing, someone here did some corrosion testing of various products including Hoppe's #9, BreakFreeCLP, and a few others and compared them to some sort of industial cutting/machining/cooling fluid, which ended up beating them all by a wide margin. Anyone remember the thread or who it was that did the testing? It was someone who discovered this in his job while being assigned to the task of 100% rustproofing some bare steel parts during manufacture and shipping to the buyer.

Gear

[sig2009]

Hey Gear,
Could this be what you were talking about?
http://www.frfrogspad.com/cleaners.htm

Here is a video of one of the tests.
http://ingunowners.com/forums/accessories_and_gear/129103-the_plate_of_truth_gun_cleaning_lubricating_produc ts_test.html

[geargnasher]

No, that wasn't it, but that's an outstanding link, and actually much more comprehensive testing! Seems that Frog and I think very, very much alike. Probably have similar backgrounds and experiences.

Gear

[Az Rick]

Don't want to hijack, but Gear what "color" oil filter do you like.

[geargnasher]

Wix, Purolator, and in some cases (due to OEM patents affecting critical design features) OEM filters. For example, NEVER use anything but a MOTORCRAFT oil or fuel filter in 6.0L and newer Ford diesel engines. The oil filter cartridge on a 6.0L has a patented anti-drainback valve only activated by OEM filters, if you use anything else you will get long crank times due loss of initial injection control pressure because the oil drains out of the filter housing after shutdown. The fuel filter on the frame rail inside the Horizontal Fuel Conditioning Module has an air bleed hole in the top of it on the OE filters, all others will trap air in the housing, only allowing it to fill up about halfway with fuel. This isn't much of a problem by itself, but it forces 100% of the fuel through about 50% of the filter, the bottom half.

Gear

[AnthonyB]

Gear:
Sounds like you might be a Ford guy. What do you think of the 6.4L diesel? I have a 2008 with low mileage I want to keep forever...
Tony

PS: The hijacking had already started!

[steg]

Always learning something new here, thanks for the info Guys............................steg

[Russell James]

The amazing properties of ATF continue.........a mate and I have supplemented our supplies of WVO [waste veg oil] which we use to run in his diesel engine with waste ATF we get from a local garage.
After filtering it , it goes straight in the tank and runs great!
Russell James.

[rogn]

Another good non-firearm product is the better two-cycle outboard marine lubes. I ve been using Amsoils OB TCW lubes to wipe down and bore protect for years. The TCWs seem to penetrate well into any"pores" the metal may have, and by the nature of the product it has good anti-corrosion additives, as well as being a super lube. Have always included some in my BP lubes for those reasons.

[lavenatti]

ATF mixed 50/50 with acetone make a fantastic penetrating oil. It's really thin and wicks right down through rusty threads.

Almost as good as Kroil and way better than WD-40(for freeing rusted parts anyway).

[geargnasher]

Gear:
Sounds like you might be a Ford guy. What do you think of the 6.4L diesel? I have a 2008 with low mileage I want to keep forever...
Tony

PS: The hijacking had already started!

Not a Ford guy at all. But God bless them, if it weren't for Fords, us techs, wrecker drivers, and parts suppliers would all be broke and homeless.

If you want to keep a 6.4L Super Duty forever, you'd better start saving your money now, and maintain it RELIGIOUSLY. I mean drain the water from the separator every two weeks, use a quality fuel conditioner like Racor or PowerService regularly, change your fuel filters every other oil change, and change your oil every 4500 miles, I don't care what the book says. If you don't, it makes me no difference, I make much more money on making repairs due to neglect than I do performing preventative maintenance tasks. FYI the average mechanical engine repair on a 6.4L in our shop is about $6,000, mostly related to major fuel and induction system issues because the owners never took care of them. One single drop of water in the fuel will kill an injector if it makes it to the intensifier piston, and that's the truth.

Get familiar with your truck, all it's maintenance needs, and keep after it and if you're lucky, it won't cost you much for the first 200K miles. After that, all bets are off. If you think maintenance is expensive (and it is), wait until you have your first major repair out of warranty. The chassis, t-case, and transmissions on the Super Duty series, again with regular maintenance, are just about bullet-proof.

Gear

[garbear]

I have used atf dextron on my ar15. much cheaper then the break free.
Garbear

[milprileb]

I suggest a re think using atf as your lube on a AR 15.

Its not going to do you right. In a life time... what would
you save anyway... ten bucks ?

I get breakfree for 5 bucks a quart at gun shows, and a quart goes
a long way for pennies.

[geargnasher]

Not trying to be a smart-****, but I've seen this common mistake a lot in this thread, might as well tell all of you that there is no "T" in "Dexron"!

Gear

[303Guy]

You kidding!:shock: Well, well ..... I always thought there was. Now I'll have to go look!:mrgreen:

[MT Gianni]

I agree on atf, I also use STP on my guns but never on my truck or car. It is great for lubing cylinder pins and reloading gear such as Lee turrets, hand primer contact points, sizer and press lever joints.

[XWrench3]

i use STP in my boolit lube also. it just makes sense. the stuff was designed to work under the worst conditions. it is also my press lube, straight up. i have used it for case sizing lube, and for lubricating my vise. i also use STP on the barrels of my semi auto pistols (some of them have no bushing to replace). i also use atf, in my ed's red, and straight up. also, super grease and mobil 1 grease. i am going thru a transition on brake cleaner. they recently outlawed the stuff i have been using for the past 15 years. and i have not found something i like yet. the ones that i have bought either smell like carb cleaner, or M.E.K. neither of which will be friendly to plastic or gun finishes.

[milprileb]

Sadly this thread has gone to the GO CHEAP mind set over what is best for
weapons maintenance, cleaning and lubrication.

Lads: you know STP, ATF and etc etc are not what any weapon is recommended to
be maintained with by any maker, any army or any competition shooter on the planet.

Saving a penny on proper maintenance products for your weapons is foolish.

You save now but you will pay a price. Its a weapon not a lawn mower !

[sundog]

I have my own thoughts on CLP. Yeah, it's milspec. So what. All that means is that it meets certain requirements for military use. It's introduction was meant to do away with several other products (y'all premember bore solvent and LSA?) so that the soldier in the field only had one item to be concerned with it stead of several.

For those of you who use it religiously, keep on keeping on. Fine by me. Is CLP the best item on the market. Maybe, maybe not. But for those who do not use it in lieu of other stuff that works, so what.

How many of us subject our ARs (or any other of our fine firearms) to the use and abuse that soldiers do in the field? If you have never been in the field with military weapons for extended periods, all kinds of weather, day and night, day after day, night after night, you cannot even begin to imagine. Rain, sand, snow, mud, ice, dust, searing heat, bone chilling bitter cold, and the list goes on. That's what CLP was designed for. And it works well.

A trip to the range or a day or two in deer camp, hardly compares.

If I had to go the field with an AR and stay there for an extended period, CLP would be my choice. Barring that, I prefer to use an array of products from 3-in-1 oil through any of the different bore solvents (still love the smell of Hoppes) and copper removers, Ed's Red, and wheel bearing grease, to mention several. All of which are on the shelf at my cleaning station as is lighter fluid and brake parts cleaner. CLP is not the end all of proper maintenance for an AR or any other firearm. But, like I said, going to the field for an extended stay, it would be first choice.

[L Ross]

Anyone have any comments on ATF manfactured before the banning of sperm whale oil in it? I have an unopened can that originally sold for 75 cents. I bought in a box of stuff at a garage sale.

Duke

[milprileb]

Yeah, it's milspec. So what.

Its a standard of excellence. I got 30 yrs of service and
while we were just fine with LSA and bore solvent, the
introduction early 80s of Break Free CLP was a jump forward
in maintenance.

No its not perfect and I still use Hoppes and purpose built copper
removers like Patch Out but Break Free is a solid product for AR / M16
weapons and its stood the test of time as Milspec is a high standard.

At 5 bucks a quart, Break Free is a bargain at gun shows and a great product
you can trust. For a general purpose Cleaner, Lube and Protectant, it will do
the mission.

But I agree on this: civilians will rarely subject their weapons to the conditions of
military operations. However, it does not cost but a few pennies to put the correct
lube and solvents into your shooting program so why pinch pennies on maintenance.

If your lawnmower conks out on you, so be it but if your weapon does: it is entirely a different kettle of fish.

[GabbyM]

I’ve been working through a jar of RIG +P Stainless gun grease for years now. For a refill of that jar I was contemplating something like special purpose ball joint grease or CV joint grease. Haven’t played around in either grease. Seams like ball joint grease would be high pressure if the viscosity was workable in a firearm. Anyone have any idea on that?

[GabbyM]

As for CLP. I’ve half a bottle on my workbench for about twenty years. IMHO the stuff isn't worth a hoot for anything. In particular an EP lube. Surprised the military even stocks the stuff anymore. Last I heard they had bad issues with premature wear on certain rifle and howitzer parts.

If I was only looking to save a penny that bottle of CLP snake oil would have been used up years ago.

[milprileb]

We just about finished a decade of wars and the military would have ditched CLP if it were a failed product. Do I wish I had a dry lube in Iraq vs CLP ? Yes I do However it ain't snake oil but it is milspec. I am all for something better but that sure ain't ATF.

I am infantry so I cannot comment about artillery lubes.

[btroj]

Yippee, it is mil spec. Was the lube designed to meet the spec or was the spec written to fit the lube?
I have used many oils on my AR. I don't think it really matters what is used as long as it is lubed.
As for what is used by the military- they don't really have a choice, do they?

Jus because something is mil spec means little. The way politicians have their hands in the pockets of manufacturers I am amazed that an old Sears catalog isn't mil spec toilet paper. I have no doubt in the military, it is the politicians behind the scenes that scare me.

[milprileb]

Milspec means little to you because you are not a soldier. It means alot to me.
You can put anything you want on your AR, your life don't depend on it.


Next thing , you'll be telling me your low bottom feeder AR is as good as a Milspec M16/M4.

Again: you get what you pay for !

[The Virginian]

Prove that ATF would fail under those conditions....just saying it isn't as good doesn't make it so unless it is tested under similar conditions to CLP. ---Said with respect----- I have used Ed's Red for cleaning my guns and only use a copper dissolviing solvent in the bore when shooting jacketed bullets. Lead bullets and their residue are easily managed with Ed's Red and the longer it is used on the gun(s) the easier it is to clean them. I have never had rust or wear raise their ugly heads when using ER or ATF as a lubricant. On antique guns I have used Jojoba oil which is the vegetable replacement for Sperm Whale Oil and it does a great job.

[milprileb]

Prove what ? Eds Red ain't served a day in combat. CLP has stood the last ten yrs of wars. Is that significant ? I guess not for some but it is for me on AR type weapons. In the end, its all on you to maintain a weapon.

Maybe the real issue is more folks ought to enlist and see the Elephant !

[geargnasher]

My uncle was in the Army during the Vietnam war and upon returning worked for the National Guard in Ft. Hood for 30 years. His specialty was small arms maintenence and repair. He tested Break Free when it first came out and determined it was a helluva lot better than what was being used before. The key with CLP is that it's in a solvent base that both cleans and lubricates, and the Teflon stays behind even in extreme heat and dry weather to leave an extra measure of anti-galling lube behind. Knowing exactly what's in it, he still makes the stuff for friends and family that want it, but he doesn't use it on his own guns, not even his AR or .45. That says something to me.

The issue with Break Free is that it's a "one size fits all" product that meets the minimum specifications that the military brass established. I used to work for Boeing Defense and Space, and I'll tell you that the milspec BS we had to deal with was insane. I could and frequently did compare an FAA spec to a Mil spec for a given build or process, and more often than not the milspec was a serious DOWNGRADE. But it is what it is, a STANDARD. Like ISO standards for manufacturing, it's a set of guidelines upon which quality control standards and process are built, in other words a simple way to determine if a product meets contract requirements.

Break Free is also designed for the short-term compared to my guns. It keeps guns functioning in harsh enviroments, but I've never seen a "universal" product that particularly excelled at any one of its intended functions. Not knocking it, in fact I have several bottles of the stuff various people have given me, but it won't hold a candle to even the simple lube I use on my press rams: Bullplate sprue plate lube!

Gear

[geargnasher]

Next thing , you'll be telling me your low bottom feeder AR is as good as a Milspec M16/M4.

Again: you get what you pay for !

I appreciate your passion about this subject, but if you were a civilian gunsmith with lots of experience with the commercial side of arms quality, you might have a more balanced perspective. The milspec keeps pure-D, chinese junk from being foisted on our fighting men, it does not ensure that their arms are better than what I can buy off a shelf at Gander Mountain.

I do carry a gun upon which my life may depend, and that of my wife as well. It's cleaned with Ed's Red, and very lightly lubricated with plain Ammsoil 10W-30 and Mobil 1 EP grease. Would Break Free work just as well? Probably, but I use cleaners for cleaning, and the correct viscocity, synthetic lubes for lubing. I don't want Teflon or oil in my barrel, and I don't want solvent in my slide rails or trigger group. I use Synthetic lubes because they won't gum-up in cold weather or go away in hot weather.

Gear

[milprileb]

Gear,

The subject in not other Milspec things in aero space industry and granted all things Milspec are not perfect vs. off the shelf items at times.

If ten yrs of warfare vs your Uncle's opinion is the criteria for what you trust, do indeed go with what ever you think is right on the subject of CLP.

Frankly, if I had my druthers, LSA would still be the lube and CLP be the bore solvent.

[milprileb]

Gear , we are going to have to stack arms here.

My perspective is military and yours in civilian. We do not have a bridge that will
span that difference of experiences.

[sundog]

milprileb, thank you for your service, but on the CLP thing you are fighting a battle that doesn't need fought. milspec is not the end all of the best available. It is a standard to which a commodity is manufactured. That's all. And often times it's by the lowest bidder.

As far as CLP is concerned, it is a good product. I've used it (a lot of it), and probably will in the future. But understand this, just because it is milspec does not necessarily mean it is the best, or most aptly suited. There is a lot of off the shelf stuff that is aptly suited for military use.

btw, I retired from the Army in 94 with 26 years.

Oh, that bridge you can't find between military and civilian? Better start looking, because sooner or later you are going to have to cross it again...

[The Virginian]

All I can say is I have yet to have one of the scores of gunowners I have turned onto Ed's Red tell me they didn't like using it. One shotgunner figured it saved him about $200 a year in off the shelf gun cleaner expenses. A Luger specialist went out of his way at a gun show to show me how well it worked on cleaning up his guns.

[btroj]

I will put my AR up against a rack grade M4 anyway at the range. Was mine made for "battle"? Nope, but mine got me a Distinguished Riflemans badge and to me that means it must be pretty darn good.

My point was that Milspec only means that it meant a spec put forth by the government. I have a friend who is an architect. Asked him about specs for things like window and paint. He mentioned that he could easily write specs so that only ONE specific product met the specs. Didn't mean it was the best, only that it met HIS specs. Might have been cost based. Might have been a brand loyalty thing but in no way dis it mean that this was the best product.

The military has to settle on a single product in situations like this. Logistics dictate that. As civilians we are not bound by those rules. We can use what WE decide is best, not some beaurocrat stuffed in a back office counting beans.

If you chose to use CLP then do so but I can't swallow the "it is Milspec so it must be best" thing. I have used CLP on my AR for lube, but I have also used grease, Milititec oil, Breakfree LP, and who knows what else. I never had an alibi due to a malfunction. Never had any troubles at all, I just kept it wet and it kept on shooting. That is all I need to know.

[The Virginian]

Anyone have any comments on ATF manfactured before the banning of sperm whale oil in it? I have an unopened can that originally sold for 75 cents. I bought in a box of stuff at a garage sale.

Duke

You are lucky to have it, just don't try to sell it as it is a CITES III endangered speices commercial product that the PETA Nazis will get after you about. Some guy in NJ found 3 unopened cans of Sperm Whale Oil in a school basement and got fined for selling it by the oz on Ebay a few years ago.

[colt 357]

I was wondering if any of you use ATF in the cleaning/ lubing of your guns.
I've been using it for 20+ years with great results. I leave it in the bore to slowly, but surely clean it while it protects. I oil my gun parts with it as well. I've even tumbled brass with it! Years ago, a mechanic told me it could be used for 1000+1 uses..air-tool oil and hydraulic fluid, just to name a couple. I believe it's the true
"Mystery oil". It's a solvent based lubricant.
I'd also like to know about other easily obtained automotive products that are used by our members in the care and feeding of their guns. I just like the idea of using common houshold products that allow us to take advantage of top-notch technology while letting others "stimulate the economy".:coffeecom

sorry I misspelled versatile :)
I am with you on this one I use ATF (not the government ATF) I make Ed's red for bore cleaner and use straight tranny fluid for oil along with 3 in 1 oil.
I also use tranny fluid in my bullet lube mix. Yes I use it for air tool oil and hydrauic oil. I use dexron 2 which is getting harder to find. I found a bottle that my dad had when we moved my mom. so it went to gun duty.
I shoot black powder and had rust start in one of my bores and use tranny fluid to stop the rust as nothing else i try stop the rust. (learned that one from a black powder fourum) I coated the bore with tranny fluid and left it in there for a few day and repeated till the rust didnt come back.
I have had people tell me they would never put tranny fluid in there bores because it might wreck it. I tought you put it in your transmission which cost more then probably any of your guns. just price a new tranny.
I let them buy the high dollar gun cleaners, I'll spend my money on powder primers and guns
I also make my own gun patches, tumblin media the only gun store item i have for cleaning is foaming bore cleaner which is 2 years old and 3/4 full.

[btroj]

I have never thought of ATF as a gun lube/ oil but you guys have peaked my interest. I will say this- I work my transmission ALOT harder than I do my guns!

Leave it to a bunch of wrench monkeys to teach me something new. I am in your debt. Now I need to go Bullplate my press rams..........

[blackbike]

I`v ben a mecanic for 45 years, I`v searved in the army. One thing I have noticed , is an old mecanic well tell you what he`s learned (if he likes you), and the milltary will tell you what they are told to tell you. I know about ATF`s ability to clean and lubacate. You can blend ER to do what you need ,cheep and it works.hope this helps. blackbike

[Frank]

I was cleaning with Hoppes after each shot with the .475 and getting minimal lead coming out near the throat. When I switched to Marvel Mystery oil (It is red) the leading quadrupled. Maybe ATF reacts the same way. I thought the oil would lubricate the bore, gave it one good dry patch after wet, but was way wrong.

[GabbyM]

I’m not sure MMO is even a lubricant. Its’ certainly not a high pressure lubricant. Darn stuff will gum up if left over a season in model airplane engines. The red in ATF is dye and has nothing to do with it’s properties other than to distinguish it from motor oil.

ATF would probably produce carbon if left in the bore before a shot. Especially in an AR gas system.

[Russell James]

Have used ATF added to a petrol engine that had a rear main oil seal leak.
It was a case of removing engine or trying the atf.
Added atf to engine oil, ran the engine for a few weeks and the leak stopped . Changed the oil and all was good. Engine did 140 000 miles with not a hint of problems nor leaks.
It was a 1989 Subaru sherpa with a 600cc paralell twin engine.

[wrench]

That's refreshing


Not a Ford guy at all. But God bless them, if it weren't for Fords, us techs, wrecker drivers, and parts suppliers would all be broke and homeless.


Ooooohhhhh! First some nice words, then the shiv in the back!:kidding:

I'm a Ford girl, by training and by trade...but I suppose other companies make nice vehicles, too.;)

I've used CLP, Tetra oil and grease, Hoppe's, all different kinds of dedicated 'gun' oils and potions. I've not found any of them to perform better than the automotive chemicals I've fallen back on.
I share the opinion of others, that if an oil or other chemical is safe and effective on a vehicle, operating at much higher temperatures and pressures, it will work fine on my guns.
I still use Hoppe's to clean bores, mainly because I have a ton of it. But for lube and other cleaners, it's back to the auto shop.
(Aced L1 on recert last year[smilie=p:)

[geargnasher]

:groner: If they didn't break, you would be working in the QuickLane, or having to find another trade! Maybe it's just because they sell so danged many of them in Texas, but I swear when the work gets slow for a minute, we chant a few "Praise Henrys" and usually a Ford will ride in on a hook and help make the paycheck! I worked for a Ford dealer myself for three years, I'd still be there if the service manager hadn't been such a splendid all-around crook. But I've done the indie thing for quite a while now, so I have no biases, I get to fix everyone's broken stuff and engineering disasters [smilie=b:

One thing I've learned about automotive lubes, they're all good. I've never seen a failure directly caused by the lubricant itself, whether that be grease, engine oil, diff oil, atf, etc. Failures are due to lack of lubricant, incorrect lubricant and/or contamination, not of lube quality, the API sees to that. Same thing with guns.

Gear

BTW, congrats on aceing the recert, very few people know what a buggar that test is. It's the "BAR" exam for automotive technicians.

[GabbyM]

To: gearnasher or wrench,

My SO has a business running four E-250 vans operating at average GVW of approximately 7,600 lbs.

Front ball joints are typically a 110M mileage part. Service center places zerts in the grease plugs then lube the BJ’s with chassis grease at the oil change interval. In the manual it says to use Ford spec(whatever) ball joint grease. Now I mentioned this once and got that glare. Simply put its her business. Well you know this person is special and she makes great French Toast for breakfast so to puddle with those ball joints. I’m somewhat confident we’d get more miles out of ball joints with the Ford Spec grease in them Especially since the OEM joints lasted longer originally with no added lube and the zert plugs just left in. Last replacement joints with chassis grease lasted about 60M miles. We run ten ply Michelin tires last longer than that and the bad BJ’s take out the tires which are huge money anymore.

[geargnasher]

Don't blame the grease, blame the design, I blame it on excessive unsprung mass of typical Ford Twin I-beam suspension. I make good money on Ford ball joints and GM pitman and idler arms. At the Ford house I was the front-end man, made most of my living replacing ball joints and power steering parts. Even Moog Problem-Solver ball joints won't hold up under a Ford van or truck, 80K miles is a rough average WITH proper maintenance (every oil change). You're right, the sealed units last about as long and you don't have to mess with them, so it really makes little difference, and type of grease (I've used all kinds and noted the long-term effects on many repeat customer's vehicles, as well as different brands of joints). Bottom line is consider them a maintenance item (along with the sway bar end bushings in the axle beams), and have the front end aligned every 25-30K miles on the Twin I-beam vehicles since they continually settle and the camber angle gets out of whack. Loose/worn wheel bearings don't help matters, either.

Gear

[colt 357]

Ford Chevy my dad drove wrecker for years. Being in the towing business he found out one thing be it Ford Chevy or Dodge they all well leave you along side the road with a snot bubble in your nose. So if you think one is better then the other they all end up on the back of a wrecker sooner or later.

[GabbyM]

Thanks Geargnasher:

Sounds like I actually made the right decision for once and just ate that French Toast and kept my mouth shut.

What they need for the GVW they run is E-350 vans but she says they tried that twenty years ago and the trucks beat there guts out in harsh ride. I’ve tried to tell here they could spring the E-350 correctly to the load but that falls on deaf ears too.

The vans are getting pretty beet down but the profit margins have slimed the last few years so cash for new trucks isn’t sitting in the bank. I’m sure you’ve customers in the same situation. Lots of companies coasting through this recession on assets they hold but that can’t last for the ten years economist say it will take to turn around the economy.

They run about as many miles on the trucks. Just when they get to the customers house they only have there carpets cleaned in the heavy traffic areas instead of doing the whole house. 90% of payment is with credit card or post dated check.

[GabbyM]

Ford Chevy my dad drove wrecker for years. Being in the towing business he found out one thing be it Ford Chevy or Dodge they all well leave you along side the road with a snot bubble in your nose. So if you think one is better then the other they all end up on the back of a wrecker sooner or later.

yes if you drive them neglected until they quit you need to be very lucky to have them quite in your drive way.

Have been driving since 1971 and never called a tow truck. Some of that is just luck as I’ve been dead stick twice but the grade was all down hill to the next service station. Fixed plenty alongside the road since we had no cell phones.

[wrench]

I'm right there with Geargnasher. Ball joints on older Ford trucks are a maintenance item, they just don't live that long.
If you're getting 110k out of them, especially in heavy service, you're doing well.
The Ford twin I beam front suspension was around a long time, and is massively strong. It does have issues, however, with ball joint and tire wear.
Any decent brand of chassis grease is fine, I don't think you could tell a dime's worth of difference among them.
I think folks get too wound up in brand name, if it meets API specs and viscosity standards for the vehicle, run with it.
The bottom line with motor oil is, change it! We see veeeeery few oil related engine failures in vehicles that have had regular maintenance.
My 2 cents.

[parisite]

The best bore/gun cleaner I have ever used is diesel fuel. I keep 3-4 inches of diesel in a plastic tub, disassemble and bathe my handguns in it. It's a great light oil solvent cleaner and makes bluing look wonderful. After cleaning I take an air hose and blow off the excess, wipe semi dry then lube as usual.

[robert6715]

I am surprised to hear that breakfree has teflon in it. I was always told to NEVER use teflon containing oil in the bore. As far as "no competitive shooters using ATF" well when I shot high power almost all the AR shooters (one was a retired gunnery srgt.)at my club used ATF for lube.The last club championship that I shot in was won by An ATF using competitor.He shot a score of 788-57x

[Me not you]

The only "gotcha" I can think of for use of automotive lubes is the effect on the primers. I actually use motor oil and chassis grease for lubes, and ATF in the barrel. They work fine. I just try to keep the stuff from sitting on the ammo for vary long. BTW, I use castor oil for resizing, and it does not affect primers.

[milprileb]

And none of you ATF guys ever wonder why the military won't use it for the AR?

So the military is all wrong?

The discussion is beneath further comment.

[The Virginian]

With regard to primers and penetrating oils, that is possible, with ATF or any gun oil, but as a rule of thumb I just keep it away/off the ammo....a simple fix and it isn't a problem unless the gun is stored with ammo in it or carried.

[The Virginian]

No, the military likes specific products like CLP that are supposed to do everything.

[btroj]

Dude, get over the Milspec thing. I don't use a jointed Al cleaning rod in my AR either.
I would be willing to bet that the Army and Marine competition shooting teams use things besides CLP for cleaning barrels also.

[waksupi]

Have you ever considered that milspec is simply a term that says the item was designed for minimum performance standards, and no more?

[sundog]

And none of you ATF guys ever wonder why the military won't use it for the AR?

So the military is all wrong?

The discussion is beneath further comment.

No, the military is not wrong. Get over it. It is a good product for what it does - multipurpose, single item, that works very well in the field for it's intended purpose. If you want to use it on your personal firearms, by all means, have at it. But, you need to understand this. You are fighting a battle that you are simply NOT going to win. Let's move on to something important.

[GabbyM]

How many times did DuPont have to sue the makers of Slick 50 to try getting that snake oil off the shelf. I don’t think they ever did succeed in being allowed not to sell PTFE to them. No law against selling snake oil in the USA even if it does destroy your cars systems.

[GabbyM]

Did you fellows know that PTFE (teflon) breaks down polymer frames on those plastic pistols. FN has an advisory not to use it. That would include Breakfree CLP.

I stand behind my snake oil statement in reference to CLP. That stuff has no business in a shooting box. I can’t figure these statements about CLP working in all climates. When even Illinois winters are enough to lock up a gun lubed with it. As for it being millspec. Back in the cold war the IL NG’s job was to run up to Alaska to meet our enemy at the gate. They were specifically instructed not to use snake oil like CLP on there rifles up there and in Sweden where the NCO’s went to train in the winter. So it was speced alright. Speced to not use in arctic conditions. . In any sand box it's like a dust magnet. But so is most real lube too. At least with ATF and K-1 you get some wash and EP lubrication out of it. I use a lot of EP grease in my AR’s and bolt guns at the range. No issue with dirt there.

At least wipe that CLP clean from your bore before you shoot. Teflon does cause cancer when you burn it then breath it in.

[geargnasher]

How many times did DuPont have to sue the makers of Slick 50 to try getting that snake oil off the shelf. I don’t think they ever did succeed in being allowed not to sell PTFE to them. No law against selling snake oil in the USA even if it does destroy your cars systems.

Actually there are plenty of laws regarding truth in advertising, and the FTC sued the carp out of Slick50 at one point. I can't believe they're still in business. Pro-long is another good example of snake oil.

Gear

[uscra112]

Hey Geargnasher- I think that your point of view is colored by the fact that the only vehicles you see are the broken ones. I was a service tech too, many years ago, and found out that fact of life only years later.

FWIW I've had nothing but Fords for 30+ years, run 'em into the ground at 250K+, and have never seen any unusual ball-joint or tire wear issues. What am I doin' wrong?

[robert6715]

your must not be driving a 4x4. I make my living replacing ball joints on fords up here in Alaska.When I lived in Cincinnati everybody had 2 wheel drive fords,and drove nice paved roads.I dont remember(its been awhile)doing that many F series ball joints there.

[johnho]

Hard to argue with the experienced folks here about Ford or Chevy trucks. My experience with both while running a very large quarry operation and being in charrge of approving supervisor trucks for running in the quarry was to stop the use of Chevy trucks simply due to the overall maintance costs. Chevy's had far and away more problems with suspension and brakes than the Fords. That was my experiene anyway on having to pay to keep them running.

[superior]

I am surprised to hear that breakfree has teflon in it. I was always told to NEVER use teflon containing oil in the bore. As far as "no competitive shooters using ATF" well when I shot high power almost all the AR shooters (one was a retired gunnery srgt.)at my club used ATF for lube.The last club championship that I shot in was won by An ATF using competitor.He shot a score of 788-57x

Well, well... Looks like another (if not the most convincing) testimonial to the intrinsic value of ATF.
In WW2, the Russians used diesel fuel to clean their weapons, while the Germans used their highly over-engineered Milspec oils to maintain the nazi guns. The German weapons froze up in the Russian winter and the Russian guns operated flawlessly....
With a automotive product! he he he:Fire:

[uscra112]

your must not be driving a 4x4. I make my living replacing ball joints on fords up here in Alaska.When I lived in Cincinnati everybody had 2 wheel drive fords,and drove nice paved roads.I don't remember(its been awhile)doing that many F series ball joints there.

But 4x4s don't have the twin I-Beam front suspension, which was the crux of the original criticism of Fords. And before I retired I commuted my 2WD E-150 for 8 years over five miles (each way) of outrageously potholed Michigan gravel "road". Still have that van at 235K - it got new BJ at about 180K.

FWIW when I was still deep into motorcycles (1965 through 1995 or so) , we had numerous concoctions using Teflon being sold as cable lubricants. All of them would gum up the cable so badly that it would have to be replaced. Best cold-weather lube I ever used was (yep!) ATF, but never for the plastic-lined Japanese cables. It would soften the plastic, which confirms the point made about not using it in plastic pistols. This property of ATF is why it made that guy's engine seals stop leaking - it swells the seal plastic.

[geargnasher]

Actually, Ford did make 4x4 twin-I-beam trucks, F150-350, in the 1990s. They called it "Twin Traction Beam." The ones with the leaf springs tore up the spring shackle bushings with annoying regularity, but if you run ANY of the independent beam type Ford front ends on gravel or dirt roads, they last much longer than they do on pavement. It isn't the bumps and vibrations that kills them, it's the stress from the geometry of the system: As the front end jounces, lateral loading increases on the tires, and this repeated lateral loading tears up ball joints and axle beam pivot bushings. On gravel, there is enough slippage to minimize this lateral loading, so the tread contact patch is able to slip and slide side to side more easily as the beams trace the arc of their travel.

Gear

[nanuk]

I don't know which suspensions are what, but up here, I'd guess around 25% of Fords around 10yo can be spotted on the highway due to the "Squat" looking front end.

when you get closer, you can see the front tires are leaning in at the top.

I find it kind of funny....

[MATT HELM]

I swear by Berryman's B-12

Been using it in the aerosol can as a cleaner - degreaser for 30+ years. It does a better job and has more pressure than the "gun scrubber" aerosols and cost about 1/4 as much. Around $3 dollars for the same size can as the $12.00 size Birchwood Casey Gun Scrubber.

Use the regular can in my gas tank. When she begins to clatter a little, one can in a full tank of gas will stop the clattering for several months.

Earlier this summer, my neighbor was complaining that he was going to have to buy a new lawn mower. Just couldn't keep it running and three different mechanics had told him it wasn't fixable, needed a new engine.

I convinced him to risk $3 on the chance it might save $300. We put an ounce in the gas tank and sprayed it into the carb like starter fluid. It started right up but quit almost immediately. Every time we started it, it ran a few seconds longer. After about a dozen starts, it was purring like a kitten. He said it was running as good as when it was brand new.

He didn't pay me the mechanics wage, but he did buy me breakfast at Mickey-D's

Great story... I have Sea Foam... ( has some alcohol in it)
​Berrymans B-12 ....now its more likely to be remembered.

[Shiloh]

My cleaner is Ed's Red. My gun oil is 50/50 Dexron/Mobil 1 5/20 No complaints from either.

With all the gun lubes out there, some $$$ for 1/2 ounce, I keep it simple. I wonder how many firearms over the years have been lubed/oiled with 3-1 oil, 20 or 30 wt motor oil, motor oil thinned with kerosene etc. etc.

Not to mention military surplus oils. One fellow, long since past away used military gun cleaners and oils from the '30's!!

Shiloh

[Outpost75]

CLP is not used in the bores of sniper rifles. Ed's Red was mixed in 55-gal. drums at NASC Crane, IN for that use and its use as an expedient combat bore cleaner dates back at least to MACV days and the recipe was well known at the farm and among our NATO allies long before the recipe was published on the old Fidonet Firearms Echo.

Charlie Fraser when asked by the Marines at Camp Perry what it was, replied, "Oh, you mean the red bore cleaner?" And when the story was repeated in retelling it became the "Red" bore cleaner as in the Red Army. Secret Squirrel folklore evolved. Samples were sent to 11th MI Co. at APG for analysis, which gave the samples to chemists at CSTA, which included some Maryland State highpower shooters who were already mixing the stuff.

Dr. McCoy liked to mess with them so said, "we can't make it, whales are protected..."

But yeah, it has combat use, ask Olley North and the Contras, the Italian Carabinieri or the IDF.

[Outpost75]

CLP is not used in the bores of sniper rifles. Ed's Red was mixed in 55-gal. drums at NASC Crane, IN for that use and its use as an expedient combat bore cleaner dates back at least to MACV days and the recipe was well known at the farm and among our NATO allies long before the recipe was published on the old Fidonet Firearms Echo.

Charlie Fraser when asked by the Marines at Camp Perry what it was, replied, "Oh, you mean the red bore cleaner?" And when the story was repeated in retelling it became the "Red" bore cleaner as in the Red Army. Secret Squirrel folklore evolved. Samples were sent to 11th MI Co. at APG for analysis, which gave the samples to chemists at CSTA, which included some Maryland State highpower shooters who were already mixing the stuff.

Dr. McCoy liked to mess with them so said, "we can't make it, whales are protected..."

But yeah, it has combat use, ask Olley North and the Contras, the Italian Carabinieri or the IDF.

Use extremely common among groups who receive foreign military assistance, but who must improvise using local materials. And, yes over the years many of these folks have been involved in combat. Not US issue, but alot of folks don't use CLP and not everybody uses ARs either...

[10 ga]

Mixed my last batch of "Eds Red" about 10 years ago and finally ran out and just picked up ingredients for another batch. I mix 3 different ways:
1. With acetone and w/o lanolin for cleaning bores and shotgun chokes/barrels and my SML bores,
2. w/o acetone and with lanolin for general cleaning and long term storage and some
3. w/o acetone or lanolin for general cleaning and etc.. after/during a days shooting and more to come soon.


And yes, I knew Ed when he was a student at VT and he introduced me to boolit casting and shooting cast boolits.
He has saved me an immense amount of $ over the years. I rarely see Ed here but he is a regular over on cast bullet association forum.

10

[DerekP Houston]

Damn I had no idea bout the CLP thanks for the info gents. Looks like that bottle of amsoil on the garage shelf is going to the reloading bench instead!

[abunaitoo]

For my Ed's Red, I've been using Castro Import ATF.
It's the same as Dexron II.
Much thinner that Dex/Merc.
Also use methyl ethyl ketone instead of acetone.
It's not suppose to evaporate as fast.
For a grease I use only Super Lube.
100% Synthetic.

[edp2k]

FYI

methyl ethyl ketone (MEK) disolves cardiac muscle (i.e. your heart) and will also dissolve your kidneys.
Stay away from the fumes.

I won't use it, prefer to to not prematurely wear out my body parts.

[GhostHawk]

I did some reading about ed's red back a couple of years ago.

Got to thinking, why do I need acetone or kerosene in my barrel?

So I went out to my garage, grabbed a quart of Dextron III ATF, brought it in, poured a shot into a small resealable bottle. Hmmmm nice stuff. After thinking about it for a week and using it I added a shot of Goo Gone label remover to the ATF, once squirt to a couple oz of the ATF.

Wow, now we are really smokin. Guns cleaned with that seamed to have a dry invisible slick film on metal parts. Bores scrubbed out, yes lead also, with just a couple of patches and a couple dry.

It has remained my goto product for lubrication and cleaning for my guns.
I have found no reason to change.

If I am changing lubes, a lightly dampened patch of this cleans out the old, 1 or at the most 2 fouling shots and they are all in nice tight groups.

Ben's Liquid Lube especially seems to have an affinity for the stuff.

My pair of Mosin's and my old Yugo SKS with old dark bores have cleaned up to sparkling shiny marvels. Shoot 20 rounds through it take it home and clean it. With each repetition groups improved.

Run a bore camera down them now and they look like the outside of a disco ball. Curves and mirrors all the way.

Your mileage may vary. But it is such a low cost effective solution you are not really out anything to try it.

[DerekP Houston]

Your mileage may vary. But it is such a low cost effective solution you are not really out anything to try it.

Well I have both products on hand generally already so..indeed I will give this a shot. Just another mixture to add to my shelf, though some are just getting thrown out now. I used to try and use it all up since I paid for it but if I went that route I'd never get to try anything else.

[Jon.Moore]

One more use: I use it for drill bit lube--- drilling steel, unlike motor oil which tries to lubricate- which leads to drill bit over heating... ATF by it's nature, allows the bit to cut and remain cool. WARNING!!! DON"T BREATHE THE FUMES!! Have a fan running!

[myg30]

Morning all, I started reading this complete thread over a mug of coffee this morning and learned new things which I hope I retain as my memory is getting older.�� I don't think anyone touched on the old Marvel Mystery Oil for a gun lube/ cleaner. Maybe some of you old( like me) knuckle busters can comment on its use or non use in firearms.
I used this in my 60' Olds dynamic 88 in the crank case and In a canister which manifold vacuum sucked a few drops into the intake for upper end lube.
Smells great too !

Mike

[trapper9260]

I use ATF in my boolit lube mix.It is the old NRA lube mix.

[earplug]

A great question would be knowing about a lubrication failure caused by various products. I served 20 odd years in the US Army and I now shoot more rounds per year then I did while active duty. A AR based weapon is pretty simple and only needs the bolt, Cam pin, bolt carrier kept wet so the carbon wipes off easily. Many automotive fluids do this job very well. The only failure I have had with a modern lubricant cir 1982 was the rusting of a Colt Python that sat in a soft case under my car seat while I was deployed at short notice. This was at Fort Benning GA. Rig would have been better then the Tri-Flow I was using. I was using Hoppes to clean and Tri-Flow to lube. I don't mix clean and lubes now because one can effect the other. Hopps #9 being a dissolve/penetrate I forget what Tri-Flow was supposed to do other then being slippery.