WC 860 in 300 Win Mag (help)

[Shuz]

I still have a couple of jugs of WC 860 lot number (LC 84 K680 L030) and I've offered to load some up for a friends .300 Win Mag in a Ruger bolt action rifle. He wants to use Nosler 180g Partitions. I realize this powder can be between H-870 and AA3100 in burning rate, but when I check my various manuals, there is quite a difference in charges utilizing those two. Can anyone please suggest a safe starting load for me?
Thanks,
Ray

[RayinNH]

Ray some of your info is wrong. Wc860 is close to AA8700 and H870. See this chart http://home.hiwaay.net/~stargate/powder/powder.htm (http://home.hiwaay.net/%7Estargate/powder/powder.htm). I think it was Buckshot that once described Wc860 and Wc872 as having a burn speed of wet paper bags.

According to Accurate's Loading Guide #2 for a Nosler 180 grain boattail not the Partition, a start load of 77.4 grains of AA8700 will give a velocity of 2314 fps.. A charge of 86.0 grains will give 2630 fps., this is a compressed load. The max load will produce 35,000 C.U.P..

This should get you in the ballpark...Ray

[madsenshooter]

If he's expecting magnum velocities, you're going to have to work with a kicker. I use shotgun powders like Blue Dot, others use 4198. The powder was designed to work with a primer a lot more powerful than a large rifle primer. I use 5.5gr of Blue Dot in the Krag, just to clean up the burn, and it will increase velocity about 250fps over a caseful of 860 alone. If you're going to try it, start low, work up slow, increasing the amount of the kicker and keeping the charge of 860 at the same full case level. I bet when you volunteered to load you weren't planning on doing load development. At least you're working a cartridge and rifle designed to handle the pressure you might generate should you get the 860 to burn at the pressure level it was designed to.

[turbo1889]

A 100+% case capacity compressed powder charge load ignited with a magnum primer should work just fine. And yes the powder in question is a lot closer to AA#8700 then it is to AA#3100, a lot closer.

[9.3X62AL]

It's a little faster than wet paper bags. I'd rate it about even with Kingsford Charcoal.

[wiljen]

The other description I've heard is that 860 "burns all the way to the target"

[Shuz]

Thanks for the help! I'll treat it like H-870 or AA-8700! I'm not sure where I got the info that it was "like" AA-3100". That just didn't seem right.
Thanks again,
Ray

[flounderman]

you are not going to get satisfactory velocity with 860 in a 300 win mag with 180s. using a few grains of red dot or other fast powder to help ignite it will work. they use the 860 in 45-70 loads with a 5 grain kicker. it will burn a lot cleaner. a case full of 860 and 165 grain bullets in my bar 300 mag gave about 308 velocity and the barrel after 3 or 4 shots was too hot to hold. each shot would hit higher than the last. 852 will work in a 300 mag.

[swheeler]

It's a little faster than wet paper bags. I'd rate it about even with Kingsford Charcoal.

Or about the same speed as lignite coal:p

[redneckdan]

you are not going to get satisfactory velocity with 860 in a 300 win mag with 180s. using a few grains of red dot or other fast powder to help ignite it will work. they use the 860 in 45-70 loads with a 5 grain kicker. it will burn a lot cleaner. a case full of 860 and 165 grain bullets in my bar 300 mag gave about 308 velocity and the barrel after 3 or 4 shots was too hot to hold. each shot would hit higher than the last. 852 will work in a 300 mag.

I noticed this too with my 375JDJ, the barrel heats up much quicker with 860

[Junior1942]

This sounds to me like a lawsuit waiting for a place to happen. If the "friend's" rifle blows up, who will get the blame? The dummy who didn't notice the barrel full of mud or the fellow who loaded a round with a military surplus powder not even close to being designed for a 300 Win Mag application? The jury would be out just long enough for a trip to the bathroom.

[wiljen]

I would also suggest that there are several different lots of wcc860 out there and the lot I have is fast enough for use in 300 Wby without a kicker charge. I'd be certain you need one before you add that kicker as it might be what sends the load over the top pressure wise if you have a faster lot of 860.

[turbo1889]

As far as "ignition-booster/primer-extender/kicker/duplex-ignition/etc" charges are concerned. With WC-860 I have found it useful to use such in "normal" case-capacity to bore-diameter ratio cartridges like the 30-06 and have found I don't need it with cartridges which have extra case capacity compared to their bore diameters such as the 25-06. That stated I think you will be fine just using it straight up and solo in a 300-WinMag although a magnum primer would probably be advisable as I suggested earlier.

[roverboy]

This sounds to me like a lawsuit waiting for a place to happen. If the "friend's" rifle blows up, who will get the blame? The dummy who didn't notice the barrel full of mud or the fellow who loaded a round with a military surplus powder not even close to being designed for a 300 Win Mag application? The jury would be out just long enough for a trip to the bathroom.

Yeah, I agree. It would be wize to shoot a few rounds loaded lighter and work up and if your getting unburned powder in the barrel you might use a few grains of a starter load. I shot some WC860 in my .30-06 with 180 gr. Hornady and got unburned powder in the bore. I guess I've got a slow lot number.

[flounderman]

you really need a chronograph to know what you are doing. I worked up a load of about a compression load of 860 and 165 grain bullets in a 300 win mag. thought I was getting well over 3000 fps. hunted with the load and killed some deer. chronoed it and found out it was 2600 or there abouts. some time I want to see what is possible with 860 and a kicker compared to 852. I want to try the 860 with a kicker in a 348 siamese mauser with a paper patched bullet for velocity and for accuracy. I load almost everything with 852 but I would like to chronograph some kicker loads of 860 and see what happens. one thing about 860, no danger of overcharging very many calibers with it.

[madsenshooter]

There is a danger however of using too much kicker, and getting the 860 to burn at the pressure level it's intended to burn, which is up around 68,000psi I believe. Within the pressure limits of a rifle meant to handle magnum cartridges, but not a good idea in my Krag. With too much kicker, the kicker itself may generate too much pressure. Work up slowly. I have obtained single digit standard deviations and some surprising accuracy using kickers with 860. 10B101 has been my kicker lately, makes for a very inexpensive load. A chronograph would be a good tool to make use of when developing loads with 860.

[badbob454]

There is a danger however of using too much kicker, and getting the 860 to burn at the pressure level it's intended to burn, which is up around 68,000psi I believe. Within the pressure limits of a rifle meant to handle magnum cartridges, but not a good idea in my Krag. With too much kicker, the kicker itself may generate too much pressure. Work up slowly. I have obtained single digit standard deviations and some surprising accuracy using kickers with 860. 10B101 has been my kicker lately, makes for a very inexpensive load. A chronograph would be a good tool to make use of when developing loads with 860.

according to wikipedia ...
Maximum pressure 54,800 psi (378 MPa) for the 50 cal
:drinks:
p/s the kicker mentioned above ,..would be loaded first next to the primer to assist ignition and get up to clean burning pressures for the wc860, as stated start low ... i would start with 1 gr. then 2,3 4, until a moderate speed is achieved

[Shuz]

Folks--I am aware of "kicker" loads and have elected not to utilize them...ever! I know they work for some folks and I can accept that as fact, however , they're not for me. I do have an Oehler chronograph and use it all the time, and plan to whilst working with my lot of WC 860 and the friends .300 Win mag.
Again, thanks for all the replys,
Ray

[madsenshooter]

according to wikipedia ...
Maximum pressure 54,800 psi (378 MPa) for the 50 cal
:drinks:
p/s the kicker mentioned above ,..would be loaded first next to the primer to assist ignition and get up to clean burning pressures for the wc860, as stated start low ... i would start with 1 gr. then 2,3 4, until a moderate speed is achieved

I thought 860 was a 20mm powder. 2gr would be a safe start, 1gr does nothing in the 6x45, or so little that one is still left with unburned powder, therefore, a waste of time.

[wiljen]

860 is a 50 caliber powder. 867 and 872 were 20mm.

[madsenshooter]

I see. My mistake.

[Shuz]

Here's the results of my WC 860 trials with the .300 Win Mag in a 26" bbl Ruger Hawkeye.

All bullets were 180g Sierra spitzer flat base, that had a price of $5.22/C marked on the old green Sante Fe Springs Ca. box!
Primers were CCI 250 and cases were Winchester new factory.

84g WC 860 ES 56,AV Vel 2792,SD 28
85g WC 860 ES 67,AV Vel 2728,SD 47
86g WC 860 ES 27,AV Vel 2814,SD 14

All loads were considered compressed charges, and as you can see, were not real consistant. However only 3 shots of each were fired just to see if this powder is worth using in this cartridge. All 3 shot groups were about the same size of 1 to1-1/2"@100yds, and hit the targets in the approximate same place on each.
After talking with the guns owner, we decided to try and increase the velocity to be more in keeping with that cartridge's potential. Therefore I'm now gonna try H-4831.

[badbob454]

I thought 860 was a 20mm powder. 2gr would be a safe start, 1gr does nothing in the 6x45, or so little that one is still left with unburned powder, therefore, a waste of time.

Ok , iwas trying to start him off at safe pressures first , then work up ..i dont use kickers often, so i was on the side of caution .., wc860 is a 50 cal powder , a kicker is reccomended to get up to speed (pressure) so it can burn...

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I read an internet article by GUN MECHANIC some time back , he worked up loads with heavy j-bullets in the 300 win mag & 7mm rem mag.
Might help to read the article.:Fire::Fire: