45 Colt - Size or not???

[41mag]

Ok brand new toy, in Ruger 45 Colt.

I have several Lee molds which have been casting standard WW to .453+/- in the 200, 230, and 255 weights. A quick check of the cylinders puts the chambers diameter at .4535, bore slugs to .453 as best I can measure. This said, the alloy I plan on starting out with is 10# PB with 2oz Sn. I had it in the pot already for some 45acp HP's but I REALLY want to shoot this thing....

So without going to the added effort of modifying the molds, in your opinions, would these be OK to run through with out sizing?

I plan on lubing up some with the 45-45-10, and some with Felix Lube just to see if there is any differences in accuracy. I would rather not muck with the molds at this point, as they are throwing bullets which all shoot great in my 45acp and 454 Casull.

However if the general opinion is they need to be bigger I will simply order another mold and go from there. I have more than enough J-words to shoot it for a while but I didn't want to start off with them. I also don't plan on hot rodding this one either as there is nothing I can accomplish with it, that I can't better with the 454. So my loads will try and be kept in the 850 on the low end, through 1100fps range at the very top.

I would appreciate any and all recommendations, or input on this as I am REALLY wanting to run something through this thing. (wait I think I saw that somewhere)

THanks

[Calamity Jake]

First off I would cut the SN down to 2%, that's all that's needed, anything more is a waste if SN. 3.2oz to your 10#PB is 2% SN

Then let the gun tell you if it likes the .453+/- dia boolits by shooten some.

[41mag]

First off I would cut the SN down to 2%, that's all that's needed, anything more is a waste if SN. 3.2oz to your 10#PB is 2% SN

Then let the gun tell you if it likes the .453+/- dia boolits by shooten some.

DOH, thats what I meant to put, (talkin to self,"ya dummy").

I had it pretty close to pur time and was waitin on my mold to heat up, so I was typing pretty fast. YES it is 2oz for the 10# of lead, not 10 oz. Thats what is written on the backs of the ingots, just had a brain fart. Thanks for pointing that out, IT would make a difference huh.....fixed it

[geargnasher]

OK, FIRST thing, what kind of Ruger is it? Is it a NEW Vaquero medium-frame, Blackhawk, Vaquero, Redhawk, or what? It matters quite a bit.

Next, did you slug the barrel with DEAD SOFT LEAD, or did you use a booit cast from your normal alloy? Anything other than true, dead-soft lead will spring back to some degree, as much as a thoustandth in .45s. I've never seen a Ruger with a .453" bore, most are right on .451", so I'm doubting your measurements a bit. Also, did you measure the slug with cheap digital calipers, verniers, or a real, C-clamp 0-1" micrometer? If you used calipers, compare the measurements of an unfired .451" jacketed bullet to your slugs to verify the proportions, your tool may be a bit off in that range if it's digital.

If your gun is a fixed-sight gun like the NV, then I'd say stick with the 255-grain Lee mould due to POA/POI issues. That gun was made to shoot 255s and the sights should be ground for it. That 255 RFN that Lee makes is hands-down, the best .45 Colt boolit I've fired, and I have over a dozen designs including some custom ones. I keep going back to it after trying other things in SAA-Style pistols and leverguns. I crimp in the top grease groove and it's fit every SAA I've tried it in.

Other than that, size to fit the throats, and don't worry about the groove dimension too much right now. If the boolit is a tight press-fit throught the cylinder throats with thumb pressure, it should be about right. No fancy measuring needed.

Gear

[MT Gianni]

Reread Gear's post. If measurements do not change, then if you want to size, size to 0.454. That will let you use any lube and it should not leak by.

[41mag]

OK, FIRST thing, what kind of Ruger is it? Is it a NEW Vaquero medium-frame, Blackhawk, Vaquero, Redhawk, or what? It matters quite a bit.

It's a Redhawk


Next, did you slug the barrel with DEAD SOFT LEAD, or did you use a booit cast from your normal alloy? Anything other than true, dead-soft lead will spring back to some degree, as much as a thoustandth in .45s. I've never seen a Ruger with a .453" bore, most are right on .451", so I'm doubting your measurements a bit. Also, did you measure the slug with cheap digital calipers, verniers, or a real, C-clamp 0-1" micrometer? If you used calipers, compare the measurements of an unfired .451" jacketed bullet to your slugs to verify the proportions, your tool may be a bit off in that range if it's digital.

I used an old egg sinker I found that was just right to start down the muzzle. Then followed it through with a wooden dowel rod. Cannot say it was dead soft pure lead, but its the closest thing I had handy at the time.

Measurements were taken with a cheap set of dial calipers, my good stuff is at work and I forgot to haul it home. Your also right about the high probability that I am off a bit, like I mentioned above, "bore slugs to .453 as best I can measure."





Other than that, size to fit the throats, and don't worry about the groove dimension too much right now. If the boolit is a tight press-fit throught the cylinder throats with thumb pressure, it should be about right. No fancy measuring needed.

Gear

Well I got done pouring up around a hundred of each weight about an hour ago, and preliminary checks show that they are between .4535 on the 200, 230 and 255gr and .454 for the 300gr. It's unlikely that I will get up to the 300 as it is a GC design and I really don't feel I will need this with this revolver. but I had the lead hot and figured I might as well toss some just to give them a try.

Hey I appreciate everything you can toss this direction. Like before with the 454, this is all still new to me and I don't mind making mistakes, but I learned a long time ago, it's tons easier to be humble and ask, than be arrogant and have to fix it. This said, the 255gr boolit is the one I am really hoping to get going with this one. I just really don't see a need for the heavier one in this revolver. If I need bigger and faster I can go with the Casull.

Thanks for the info,

[geargnasher]

Don't forget that boolits can grow a bit in the first week or two of aging, but I think you're on track with the boolit moulds you have, seems they will all probably fit decently. Do the "push through" test with the 255 grainers at .4535" and again with the 300s at .454", check each cylinder throat with a fresh boolit.

Gear

[cbrick]

41mag, gotta agree with Gear on the Ruger bore, Ruger in my experience has kept a pretty decent control on bore dimensions. My current Blackhawk/Bisely 7 1/2 inch 45 Colt has a great bore that measures .4512", smooth and consistent, no loose or tight spots. Also has the most consistent throats I've seen on a Ruger @ .4522" for all 6.

I don't have the LEE molds mentioned but I have 15 different 45 caliber molds and the one that has shot the best so far is the MP clone of the RCBS 270 SAA. Like 41mag in the OP, I wasn't trying to make a 454 out of it, at 900-950 fps it's comfortable to shoot and preliminary grouping looks to be good. Next best bullet so far is the RCBS 255 SWC PB also around 950 fps.

Heed Gear's advice on sizing & using calipers when an accurate measurement is needed like when taking critical revolver measurements for proper bullet fit.

I would also like to know what the loads are that your using, I'm kind of early in load development with this gun myself. Let us know how it turns out for you.

Rick

[Char-Gar]

Sometimes we major on the minor and strain gnats. Shoot your .453 bullets and don't sweat the small stuff. If there is a problem, then you can worry about it when it happens. My money says everything will work just fine.

[Catshooter]

Try it. The only way to know is to test.

I have a Winchester 94 in 38-55 that measures .3796 (or so) and my mould drops wheel weights at .3791.

But I tried them. The loads run 1850 fps or so and zero leading after 500 rounds or so.

On paper the combo shouldn't work. But they do.

Opinions mean nothing except for taste in women. :)


Cat

[geargnasher]

......Opinions mean nothing except for taste in women. :)

Cat

Hey Cat, you forgot about horse-racing! Wouldn't work if not for differences of opinion. :p

Charger, doesn't it make sense to start out on the right foot by doing some simple fit checks based on sound theory and practice before shooting them? How complicated is it to take six of each boolit style and thumb them through the cylinder to see how they fit the throats? If the .4535" boolits fall through, might be a good idea to try the 300-wfns first. I'll bet the gun does like a snug boolit-throat fit, especially since he wants to try tumble-lubing them. The physical comparison also eliminates any tolerance in the measuring devices/methods.

I forgot to mention the "daylight" test to see if the cylinder throats are round, but if they aren't, there isn't enough meat there to bother reaming so I suppose it's a moot point anyway.

Gear

[MtGun44]

Can't get an accurate measurement with calipers, need a micrometer that will read to .0001"
ENCO tool usually has them for well under $50, often in the $30 or so range. Well worth
the money if you are serious. If not, just try what you have, it has agood chance of
working. If not, you may need to get a micrometer and work on it more. Many times it
just works without a lot of fooling around.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

Gear... As we have discussed previously, I am not a technical guy and a rather simple soul. If I had to go through all of that fuss and worry before I shot my new toy, I would go nuts. Here is my take on the orginal post.

1. The guy has some .453 bullet he wants to pan lube.
2. He has a sixgun with .4535 cylinder throats.
3. His barrel is .453 and I really doubt the accuracy of that number on a Ruger revolver.

Even if he fusses and starts with a larger bullet, it is still going the same size as the cylinder throats when it hits the barrel, so what is the purpose. Is it worth all of that to gain a half thou at best and will it really make any difference? My money says probably not.

My gut tells me the guy wants to shoot .453 bullets in a .4535 cylinder that is going down a .451-452 barrel. If the alloy is ok and the lube is decent he will be a happy camper. So why not break out that new toy and start flinging lead? He will find out all the angst over the numbers, right or wrong are for naught.

There is no danger in shooting those loads. The worse he can end up with is lousy accuracy and a leaded barrel. The lead can be cleaned out and he can start to run down the problem. But as I said, I think things will work just fine.

I hold the opinion that we learn more from out mistakes than we do from our sucesses. So, I don't want to hold this guy back from learning the old fashion way. If we are so particular as to not make a mistake then we have learned little by experience.

I know you and others dont agree with me, but this is where I am coming from. Shoot it (if it is not dangerous) and then you will know something from your own experience. It it is your own experience, it will be with you for a lifetime. If you become dependent on the experience of others, then you will forver be dependent on others.

I am willing to let him trust his numbers. If he made a mistake, it will show up on the target. Then he can scratch his head and figure out what went wrong. If he blew the numbers, then you and others can tell him why and how not to do it again.

The bottom line is it makes no sense for you and me to go back and forth on who is giving the best advise. Let the guy read the thread, make up his mind and do what he wants to do. That is what he is going to do anyway.

[41mag]

Ok, thanks to all for the replies and advice.

I am new to cast boolits no arguing about it, fact is I have only begun this year and once I poured up a quantity of boolits for hte 454 I have been simply to busy to pursue much of it lately.

It's not that I don't have accurate measuring devices, I simply don't have them here, they reside at work. I just got the revolver last week, and I am itching like a dog with fleas to do something with it. Trust me, I have more than enough JHP's to wear out the barrel on it, but I wanted to start off the new barrel with cast. I know my measure ment was probably not the best it could have been and thats fine, I figure that since some I had previously poured up are good and snug through the cylinders, that these would be too.

Gear,
I appreciate the advice today as well as all you helped me with on the 454. I have the info on the boolits gaining size documented and in a folder on my screen fr quick reference, along with hours worth of other data. I'm just, well you know, like a kid at Christmas having a new toy with no batteries. LOL I really want to play with it yesterday, but, I want to play with it right.

So I have plenty of nice new boolits sitting in a pan. I will be patient and let them be for a week, then lube, load, and shoot them. I'll haul my slug in to work with me on Monday, and measure it proper. In the meantime, I will prep the new cases, and possibly even load up some I have previously poured up for the 45acp, that haven't been sized or lubed just yet. Like was mentioned, if they are snug going through the throats, they aren't going to get much bigger once they exit and head down the barrel so I might as well have something to start off with.

[geargnasher]

If you don't get crazy with the pressures, say stay at starting loads (SAA, standard pressure starting loads) with Unique or even some light loads with something fast like Titegroup, Red Dot, or Clays, load some up and shoot them tomorrow. If they're in the 8-10 bhn range they are plenty hard enough, just remember that the results you have with "green" boolits might not be quite the same after they age. But lead is easy to clean out of a revolver, nothing you've mentioned appears to be any sort of safety issue, and you can always pull them or just shoot up any you load that don't work like you like, IF they don't work like you like. You can go have some fun and get to know your gun a little bit.

Don't mind me and Chargar, he thinks I overcomplicate things unnecessarily and I think he sometimes skips a lot of simple, possibly critical steps in load development for a new gun. I was only trying to point out that I find if you do some basic checking, it can save you some components and trouble. He's pointing out that with the checks you've made already, accurate or not, it's close enough to just load some and go shooting. Between us, you'll get opposite ends of the spectrum, and they both work.

Let us know how it shoots!

Gear

[btroj]

Ultimately you have to let the gun tell you what it likes. Measure f you want, don't if you want.
The gun is what matters and the only way to know what it likes is to try it.

I have a feeling the bullets as cast are going to be fine.

[cbrick]

Don't mind me and Chargar, he thinks I overcomplicate things unnecessarily and I think he sometimes skips a lot of simple, possibly critical steps in load development for a new gun. I was only trying to point out that I find if you do some basic checking, it can save you some components and trouble. He's pointing out that with the checks you've made already, accurate or not, it's close enough to just load some and go shooting. Between us, you'll get opposite ends of the spectrum, and they both work.

Let us know how it shoots! Gear

I must be getting wishywashy in my old age, I agree with both Gear and Chargar. As Gear knows, I can get pretty anal when fitting bullets to my match revolvers but in this case as with my Colt, 44 Special etc I think the original measurements should suffice to load some up and hit the range. I would take Gear's advice to try slipping some bullets through the throats to see how loose or tight they might be, could gain you some valuable knowledge should they chamber hard or lead and will only take a few minutes.

As for waiting another week for them to age harden, if I read the original post correctly your using plain lead and 1.3% tin (10 pounds lead and 2 ounces tin), without antimony (I assume) they are already a couple days old, not going to get much harder and if they grow any it will only be a tenth or two. Go shoot them.

Tomorrow is Sunday, if it were my new gun I know where I would be and what I would be shooting.

Rick

[geargnasher]

Good catch, Rick, you're sure right about the alloy, it's as hard as it will ever be the day it's cast with just lead and tin. Guess I shoulda gone back and re-read the first couple of posts. I'm keeping up with too many different members and their projects, and MY age is just starting to show to, CRS hits me more and more these days.

Gear

[41mag]

Well, I made an executive decision on an after thought. While rooting up some bullets I had put up for auction, I ran across a forgotten stash of Oregon Trail bullets in no less than .452"- 200 and 250gr RFN. So there ya go. Felt like a complete dummy.

Anyway I loaded up 50 of each in new Starline cases with 10grs of Hercules Unique lit by some Wold LP primers and headed out to go to the range. However when I opened the door it was .....RAINING!!! It hasn't rained in months but soon as I get everything ready and open the door instant down pour. Didn't phase me a bit, but I DID grab up tha tenny shoes just in case, ya know how flip flops and wet pavement go together.

So after a bit of tweaking in the sights to get her all lined up. I found it REALLY did like the loads even if I couldn't see the target through the smoke. I ended up running around 40 total through it, with the final 10 rounds fired with me resting my elbows on the table, to try an wring out what they would really do.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f285/41nag/Shooting/Cast%20Boolit%20Loading%20and%20Shooting/Group1.jpg

The top group, (blue circle) is the 250gr, and the bottom group, (yellow) are the 200gr, the one out to the right is one of the first fired while sighting in.

To say I am pleased would be a total understatement, but to figure I simply pulled the load out of an average of several books and internet post on best loads for these particular weights, I am ecstatic.

The ONLY issue if you could even call it that is the black powder like smoke cloud that erupts with every shot. While not an issue on the range, in the field it will be. I will be working with a few other powders pretty quick and might just keep right on tinkering with those OT 250's for a while also.

While I have plenty cast now I am sure that they will also be getting a ride down range in the not so distant future as well. In checking the diameter on these I found them to be .452 on the money no matter how I check them with my cheap digital calipers. So to be honest I think I simply got overly carried away in the excitment. While these might have shot poorly, I believe that the .452 diameter will do for now and I will size a couple dozen of my own to that and give them a whirl with the same load.

Wish me luck.

[Char-Gar]

Good luck... Quite often simple works.

[geargnasher]

Good on you! Try the Alliant Unique of recent manufacture, might help the smoke.

Gear

[Char-Gar]

Some powders produce more smoke than others, but I have never found any to be excessive. "Excessive" is a subjective notion and I am not bothered by lots of stuff that bugs other shooters.

There is quite a bit of difference in the smoke level of bullets lubes.

[41mag]

There is quite a bit of difference in the smoke level of bullets lubes.

Yep that thought occurred to me as well. When shooting some of my 454 loads, some lubed with the 45-45 10 mix of LLA, and some lubed with Felix Lube, I could easily tell them apart simply by the noticed smoke when fired.

Being new to casting in general, I am simply not used to it. While having shot thousands of J bullet loads through varied calibers and firearms it has simply not been an issue much, if at all.

I do have to admit though, having shot a little bit of BP through the years it wasn't too far off....LOL

[geargnasher]

Once, just once, and on a rare trip to my local public range, a fellow asked me if I was shooting "Felix's World Famous Lube" in my .45 Revolver. He said he could tell by the smell, but we got interupted and I never got to find out who he was.

Gear

[Char-Gar]

The closest thing to black powder I have experienced is when I use PSB to top off a load. Those little plastic ball blow out the muzzle in a white cloud and the smell of burning plastic fills the air.

I once had a fellow on the range ask if I was shooting black powder. As previously stated all of the hull-a-baloo about smoke, dirty powder and the like just isn't an issue with me. How close the bullets land to each other on the target trump all of the other stuff.

[Whiterabbit]

OK I have a question about sizing lead bullets for a revolver, was gonna post a new topic but seems to fit here.

In my 45 cal revolver I have bullet X which will stop in the cylinder throat, but only just barely. If I drop the bullet from a height (inch above the cylinder maybe) into the cylinder it might drop right through, but if I gently slide it in there, it'll stick. However, it takes no pressure to get it to drop through. A gentle cylinder shake and it is through.

in a loaded cartridge (loaded to an OAL that's too long so plenty of bullet is sticking out) the cartridge will not slide in easily all the way like a "normal factory cartridge". However, when I say it takes no additional pressure to get it to go in, I mean I could tilt the cylinder from 45 to 90 degrees (straight up and down) or blow on the back of the cartridge and that's enough to get it fully seated when loading.

My question is, does this sound like the right size bullet? ANother person here told me a bullet shouldn't fall through the throat but take very gentle pressure from a pencil eraser to get to pop through. I don't fall through but sure seems like I need less than gentle pressure to get it to go!

Am I still a touch small for a "fitted bullet"?

[Char-Gar]

Providing you bullet is not one of these rock hard water dropped bullet, you are good to go. A bullet of ACWW will easy "slug up" .002 or so to form a good seal in the cylinder throat.

A bullet that requires a little shove is a "best case scenario" , but you are close enough for excellent results. If your load does not shoot well, it won't be the fault of the size of the bullet, but some other reason, and there are plenty of them.

Just load some, shoot and I will bet you are pleased as punch. If, not then it is time to sweat the small stuff and hunt down the problem.

[Whiterabbit]

That's kind of where I am now but I think I'll save that for another topic. I think I am splitting hairs (now that you've confirmed it for me thanks!) over diameter given the other factors that need attention first.

Thank you for your input!

[geargnasher]

They'll shoot fine, Whiterabbit. Get some good, accurate groups off a bench at 25 yards, and when you're happy with your load and it doesn't lead the gun up excessively after 50 rounds or so, load a couple more boxes up and put a target at 100 yards. Walk your elevation up until you're hitting the target, then go for some groups. If you're not happy with the results, try a larger boolit, one that will force-fit through the throats with heavy thumb pressure, load up 25 with a slightly reduced powder charge, and try it again at 100, note any difference. Might be better, might be worse. Only your gun can tell for sure what it likes, and you won't know much difference at short ranges.

The only way to know anything for sure is to try it.

Gear