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Greg
01-29-2007, 07:35 PM
Graf’s sale flyer has a good price on CCI #34 primers. I under stand this is a military style primer, some what tougher and/or less sensitive to slam fire.

Is their any reason not to use them in my cast boolit loads?? Inquiring minds want to know.

NVcurmudgeon
01-29-2007, 07:44 PM
CCI #34 is made to prevent slam fire in semi autos. IIRC, they have a heavier, tougher cup as the main difference. Unless you plan to use them in an SKS or similar, you probably won't gain any advantage. If you do want to try them, better buy 100. It would be the pits to be stuck with 1000 and discover you had misfires!

44man
01-29-2007, 08:17 PM
You might also suffer a great loss of accuracy because of the weaker striker force. Poor ignition, hangfires or failures to fire.

Ricochet
01-29-2007, 11:59 PM
I've stocked up on them as my sole large rifle primers.

The cups are the same as other CCI LR primers. The anvils are flatter to decrease the sensitivity, which enlarges the space for primer mix, and it's full. They're magnum primers. The CCI tech guy didn't say so, but it wouldn't surprise me if they use a less sensitive mixture in these as there are many different primer mixes in use. Give 'em a good sharp whack and they go off authoritatively.

I've only encountered problems with two rifles. My Gewehr 88 had a tired old spring that wouldn't fire them reliably. I replaced it and it's sure fire. My K-31 has a weak striker spring and requires very careful attention to primer pocket cleaning and firm seating of the primers to get them to fire reliably. I'm looking for a spring for it.

garandsrus
01-30-2007, 01:27 AM
Greg,

I have shot a bunch of the CCI primers also and had good results. Most of the shooting was done in several Garands and 03A3s.

I bought a bunch of them a while ago and am going to place another order. The price is too good to pass up.

John

44man
01-30-2007, 09:34 AM
You can see the difference in cup hardness in military primers by letting the bolt go home on an SKS or one of those Chinese jobs. The firing pin is unsprung and inertia will let it go foreward hard enough to fire all of our commercial primers but the military primer will only have a scuff on it. I have sprung a dozen or so because the guy wants to handload for it.
The whole point is, if the primer fires OK in your rifle, you can still lose accuracy if it is barely going off. It is a proven fact that even on a modern gun with commercial primers, a weak mainspring will open groups drastically.
I can't count the guys I have had bring in guns that won't shoot good after they piller bed, free float, etc. I change the mainspring and turn it into a tack driver.
Handguns are the same, I get all kinds where the guy cut the spring to make the trigger pull lighter. The worst is the guy that loosens the strain screw on his S&W and sprays the target at 25 yd's.
The mainspring and it's force are the most overlooked cause of any gun not shooting good.
Some of you will gripe about the primers being no good after a while but there is nothing wrong with them, it will be your spring.

kywoodwrkr
01-30-2007, 09:34 AM
Ordered primers yesterday under Jan prices.
Feb prices are 14.5% more.
Cases look to be in the up to 13% or more range as well.
Buy what you can find at reasonable prices me thinks.
Looks like Hodgon, IMR & Winchester powders went up a couple bucks per 8#, Accurate stayed about the same. These are Last Oct prices compared to this Feb/Mar prices on brass and powder.
FWIW
DaveP kywoodwrkr

Netherwolf
01-30-2007, 10:42 AM
Graf’s sale flyer has a good price on CCI #34 primers. I under stand this is a military style primer, some what tougher and/or less sensitive to slam fire.

They also sell Wolf primers. Has anyone had any experience with Wolf primers?
Netherwolf

MT Gianni
01-30-2007, 10:52 AM
The only problem I have found with cci primers was with the old 200's. I had a case 20 years old I got from my Dad with several failures to ignite, almost 10%. Lee says not to use CCI in their hand primers I believe due to size variations. If they are what was in stock when I neeeded primers they are what i got and what I shoot. Gianni.

carpetman
01-30-2007, 12:26 PM
Has anyone had experience with wolf primers? Not me,I leave em natural and don't paint them.

Charley
01-30-2007, 01:43 PM
I use the CCI #34s to load for the SKS, Mas49/56, Hakim and Llungmann. Definately need them in the 49/56. I've not found a commercial primer that would NOT slamfire with it.

Ricochet
01-30-2007, 02:31 PM
That the cups are the same is from CCI. Not me.

NVcurmudgeon
01-30-2007, 05:42 PM
The only problem I have found with cci primers was with the old 200's. I had a case 20 years old I got from my Dad with several failures to ignite, almost 10%. Lee says not to use CCI in their hand primers I believe due to size variations. If they are what was in stock when I neeeded primers they are what i got and what I shoot. Gianni.

Gianni, Dillon also UNrecommends CCI primers for their Square Deal, and I guess, all their progressives. The tech I talked to said that CCIs are larger and not as round as WW or Federals, and I confirmed this with my own measurements. I still like CCIs because they have never failed me and also because when I started loading CCI was all you culd find easily. At that time, 1959 and into the early sixties, WW, Remington, and Federal were poorly distributed. This was possibly because it was just before the big guys realized handloaders were here to stay. Now I use CCI for rifles in a single stage, and cheaper gunshow WW for pistols to avid tying up my Dillon machine.

Wayne Smith
01-30-2007, 10:57 PM
For what it's worth, both of the Lee primer seaters I broke were broken with CCI primers, large pistol to be exact, that are all too large.

garandsrus
01-30-2007, 11:18 PM
I have loaded all the the CCI 34 primers I have used on a Dillon 550B. No problems...

John

BruceB
01-30-2007, 11:28 PM
This reputation of CCIs being out-of-spec or whatever really bumfoozles this ol' dude.

A.) I've used literally tens of thousands of them, in all sizes and flavors, for at least thirty years. This has included a fair bit of shooting at temps FAR below zero (F) and also here in the Nevada heat, well over 100 degrees.

B.) I also have used many thousands of them, large and small sizes, magnum and standard, in my Dillon 550.....no problems, no tipping, no jams or hangups.

C.) More to the point, I made the serious mistake of buying about 8000 Winchester Large Rifle primers at the Big Reno Show a couple years back. These were CLEARLY out-of-spec, being too small for good retention even in brand-new Winchester-made brass. In many situations, these primers would "seat" with no pressure whatever...I could push a few of them into the pockets with my fingers!

I use CCI primers by choice. Also, every round I've fired through that M1A of mine has been sparked by a #34, and the same routine will continue when I get back to that rifle this Spring.

felix
01-30-2007, 11:31 PM
I just got an email from CCI/Federal saying that both cups have just now changed composition. This means they are going to be different in how they fit cases, and what firing pin pressure will work making 100 percent capability. They did say that the priming composition has not been altered. ... felix

NVcurmudgeon
01-31-2007, 12:45 AM
Bruce, the undersize, compared to CCI, of WW LR primers is exactly why I am now nearly at the end of the last 1000 of the "bargain" WW gunshow primers. The CCI LP can be a real PITA in the Square Deal, so I'll stick with the WW for pistol. (Could it be that the 550 is more tolerant of primer fit than is the SD?) OTOH, the better fit of CCI LR tends to make me more confident in my full power rifle loads.

joeb33050
01-31-2007, 06:53 AM
The whole point is, if the primer fires OK in your rifle, you can still lose accuracy if it is barely going off. It is a proven fact that even on a modern gun with commercial primers, a weak mainspring will open groups drastically.
.

I'm working on this and am lookinjg for data on firing pin force vs accuracy or MV. I have a paper by C. Dell about research showing no connection. Can you elaborate or refer me to ??
Thanks;
joe b.

Bass Ackward
01-31-2007, 08:21 AM
I'm working on this and am lookinjg for data on firing pin force vs accuracy or MV. I have a paper by C. Dell about research showing no connection. Can you elaborate or refer me to ??
Thanks;
joe b.


Joe,

There is a difficult time proving or disproving this because of us speaking a different language. Like bore diameter when we really mean groove diameter.

If you lighten the force of impact, the firing pin has to slow down. Does lock time affect accuracy? No and yes. Only when an individual is placed at the other end inducing human error. The faster it goes, the less time there is for the shooter or his heart beat to screw things up.

So if someone said that you can increase the speed of your ignition as an option, would you take it? I would. But now that that firing pin is moving faster, because the weight of the firing pin is constant, it is now also hitting with more force.

So which one is causing the inaccuracy or the accuracy improvement depending on which way you go? Force .... or speed. You would have to take the human element out of it. And it would then depend on the weight of the impact. If you had a 98 Mauser locked down, I doubt that you would see much change. If you had a Savage 110 locked down where the pin is light, then you would maybe see some variance. The 110 is a great platform for testing this because the pin tension is fully adjustable.

Then there is one more factor, the depth of the pin would play a part also. And again the 110 platform can be adjusted for pin depth as well as tension. Still got your 223?

44man
01-31-2007, 10:02 AM
Years ago there was a very extensive article by one of the best known benchrest shooters (The name slips this old man!) He had a very expensive custom action in 6mm PPC where the firing pin screwed in. His starting groups were one hole. At every shoot his groups slowly enlarged until they were very bad. He spent weeks re-doing brass, bullets, powder, bought new brass and tried everything with the rifle.
Then one day as he shot, the firing pin came out.
He installed it again and groups went back to one hole so he made a whole series of tests with the tension. He would unscrew the pin a little, measure the tension and shoot a group, recording every step. As the tension got looser, the groups would open more and more. He then made a chart and could predict the group size for every different tension on the pin.
I am sure lock time and the human element was not there with the heavy bench gun and the experienced shooter.
Anyway, that is where I learned about it and have confirmed it many, many times in my shop. It is the reason I always tell everyone to NEVER lighten a mainspring to lighten a trigger, it can be done in other ways.
I also changed my SBH mainspring every year when I was shooting IHMSA and might be the reason I always won or placed near the top. Ruger is not known for good springs.
You can listen to what I tell you or choose to ignore it or try to shoot holes in the results, but I will never put up with weak ignition in any of my guns or a customers gun.
Too many think that as long as the primer fires, all is well. There is a lot more to it!
Have any of you ever thought maybe it is the reason I get sub 1" groups from my cheaper revolvers at 50 yd's. I didn't like the mainspring in my brand new BFR 45-70 after shooting it one time and sent for a new one on the same day.
Some of you change to after market springs with good results. A good spring like the Wolff spring, even though lighter, is FASTER and the hammer still hits hard. You can replace power with speed and still have the accuracy built into the gun.
I can only suggest that if everything is right with your gun and load but it doesn't group, try changing the spring--What have you got to lose?

Bullshop
01-31-2007, 11:35 AM
I havnt been following this too well but have been wanting to share some things I have learned fairly recently about primers and ignition.
Two guns I have have taught me much about primers recently. Both coincidently are in the same chambering, the 22 CCM. One is in an old model Ruger single six converted to centerfire, and the other is a gaurgus and wonderfuly accurate Cooper model 38.
Each gun has its own quirk that makes it sencitive to primer make up. The Ruger conversion has its firing pin off center a might so that it does not hit center on the anvil. This caused some very interesting facts to surface on primer cup hardness and sencitivity.
The issue with the rifle that nearly drove me to the rubber room until I figured it out is that at the rear of its bolt center of the stricker there is a screw. This screw adjusts the tension on the firing pin spring. If allowed to become too light causes ignition problems.
When I first got this gun I was rather disapointed with its accuracy. I did find some accurate loads but it was absolutely limited to one primer. If any primer beside the Fed # 100 SP was used it was plauged with misfires.
This went on for several years my not realising that the tension screw was just loose and floating in the stricker.
Info from Cooper Arms suggested the Fed SP primer so I simply assumed that this was normal. The design (Kimber) was origonaly for a RF so I assumed was inadiquite for dependable CF, WRONG!
Just by chance I noticed the loose adjusting screw and ding ding ding the lights suddenly went on. Could it be so? I had to try a SRM primer. Prime some cases with CCI#450 SRM a primer that previously would misfire 75% was now a 100% positive. Boys I was floating on air! That was it all the time, inconsistant firing pin strike. The Cooper is now my most cherrished firarm.
So from this I learned that the Fed #100 SP has a thin or soft cup that is the least sencitive to variation in pin strike.
The Fed #200 was good but a bit harder as some misfires did occure. Anything that said magnum eather pistal or rifle was outa here. The thicker harder cups intended for higher pressure would not light with any regularity.
The Rem # 1.5 SP would light easily but was only good for very low pressure. Anything higher than moderate would pearce the very thin soft cup and cause a leak. They were very accurate but limited the rifle to not much better performance than a 22 LR.
The Rem #5 SP has a tougher cup that will misfire if the spring tension is less than full. When properly adjusted it gives excellent accuracy. Other primers have not shown such extream variation in cup hardness from # to #. The main difference being between standerd and mag. I dont see much difference in ignition after all how hard can it be to light the 2 to 7gn powder charges. The big difference ( in this case) is cup hardness. The mags are intended for higher pressure and simply have harder cupps to handle it.
I know I am getting kinda long here but I aint done yet.

The Ruger conversion because of the off center strike has also shown us a few things. Once again we see a situation where only one primer is 100% dependable. This time its not at all due to the cup toughness but to the sencitivity of the priming pellet itself.
The only 100% positive primer you would think from the rifle experiance would be a SP, wright? Not so, the one and only is the CCI # 400 standerd SR. Here we have a whole new ball game. Primer cups that are too soft will deform and hang up the cylender before usfull velocity is reached. This leaves out the ones that worked good for the rifle like the Fed # 100 and #200 and the Rem #1.5 and #5. Again we see the same situation from mag primers having tougher cups causing misfires aproximatly 20%. This eather with SR or SP mags. Kinda interesting ha? So this gun is showing us more about pellet sencitivity than cup toughness. Some brands of primers were almost usless in the pistal Whinchester being the most. Not to say they are bad just perhaps safer in some applications such as for semiautoes.
Just to show what I mean I did a test with some Win primers in the pistal. I tried to fire 2 to 3 times then turn the cartridge in the chamber and try again each time misfiring. Then take the badly deforme primer cartridge, with the entire primer hit completely arround the center of the anvil and chamber it in the rifle and have it fire the first time every time. This in contrast to the CCI SR that will light every time with a hit about anywhere on the cup.
Would make me want to stay away from the CCI on any action type that could cause a slam fire. Gee I love this stuff!
Well I done rambled enough, I'm gettin a head ache. Theres prolly more I wanted ta say but I'm spinin now. Happy to answer questions if this curv has interested anyone.
OH yea, one more thing I wanted to say about about firing pin strike. If you think pin energy dont make a difference think again. I have done some cold weather testing to see just what effect this has on ignition. I had a TCR that would drag badly at sub 0 temps. It was due to liquid lube on the mainspring. I never cleaned it out cuz I just didnt care to take the thing apart. At -40F I got 800 fps extream spread in velocity. This was only in this rifle with the dragging pin problem and not a problem with the powder itself not wanting to light. I know this because I have also tested my fur rifles both on Rem 700 short actions, and both with aftermarket increased tension springs. Extreans being normal but average being lower than above freezing temps.
Thats it I am outa here!
BIC/BS

Cherokee
01-31-2007, 12:57 PM
I've been using CCI for over 45 years, all standards, no mags or BR. Never had a problem. Shoot simi-auto 308, 223, 7.62x39 reloads, never a slam fire. Never a failure in rifle or pistol. Been using Lee hand primer tool for many years and never a problem with my CCI's. Don't understand why some people don't like CCI.

fourarmed
01-31-2007, 01:10 PM
Guys, this has been very enlightening. I am going to look for a new hammer spring for the BBH .45 Colt that has been driving me up the wall. Last weekend, in very cold weather, I tried 4 different loads with 454424 boolits from a mold I had not used before. Accuracy was horrible, worse even than usual. I don't suppose the spring is the problem, but I am damned sure going to try it.

Bullshop
01-31-2007, 01:21 PM
I've been using CCI for over 45 years, all standards, no mags or BR. Never had a problem. Shoot simi-auto 308, 223, 7.62x39 reloads, never a slam fire. Never a failure in rifle or pistol. Been using Lee hand primer tool for many years and never a problem with my CCI's. Don't understand why some people don't like CCI.
Cherokee
Dont lump me in with the dont like CCI group. They are most often the first place I start. Was not putting them down at all just sharing some things I have learned.
I used to walk across a log to cross a creek. Walked across it 100's of times cuz it was the quickest way. Always headed that way cuz it just seemed best. Then one day I fell off that log and it didnt seem so good no more.
Blessings on ya!
BIC/BS

leftiye
01-31-2007, 03:12 PM
Well, MAYBE there IS something to that idea I keep hearing! You think there maybe truth in the assertion that there is a limit to how much data a person can sort out?

How about someone, (or a sticky) making a table listing primers, and the respective primer material sensitivity, and also cup thickness, hardness, and sizes? Or might there already be a reference for this?

felix
01-31-2007, 04:09 PM
The table would have to include the primer force as well. Someone needs to have a gun that is easy to modify the strike force to really show us the primer sensitivity. ... felix

44man
01-31-2007, 04:54 PM
If any of you noticed, I have not run down any primer. I used CCI primers for years and years without a problem and I like them. I use a lot of Federal primers too. I have WW and Remingtons in my box. I can't really say that one primer is better then another, only thing I have found is a difference between the mag and standard primers in some calibers. If I run out of Federal primers and have some CCI's, I use them and don't see a difference at all.
The only thing I have said is to be sure your mainspring is strong enough for military primers and weak springs can cause poor accuracy with any primer.
Felix and Bullshop have understood what I have said! It sounds like Bullshop went through a whole lot of work and experimenting to solve his problems.
Some get anal over primers, I don't. I just make sure my striker or hammer has the right force for any primer. I have shot many times with CCI and other primers mixed in my loads and they all went into the same group.
Yes, I have had some that fit looser and some tighter in the pockets, but I don't care!
I never said it will make any gun more accurate because there are too many other problems to solve. But it is such an easy thing to do and just might turn a dog into a sweet shooter. Nobody ever thinks of the springs when pulling their hair trying to get a gun to shoot. But remember, it is only one step of many and a bad barrel or something else can't be solved with it.
I only try to help!
A thing that amazes me are those shooting revolvers with the weaker springs and using large rifle primers because the parent case was made for them, or they force a LR primer in a LP pocket. How much more wrong can anyone go?

mainiac
01-31-2007, 06:06 PM
The table would have to include the primer force as well. Someone needs to have a gun that is easy to modify the strike force to really show us the primer sensitivity. ... felix

Felix, I have several of the old sako vixen rifles in .222, the striker can be screwed in or out very easily with a plane ol screwdriver. Am just stating a fact.... dont want to open any more can of worms right now!!!! Ive got so many experiments going on that im starting to vapor-lock! This would be the perfect test bed for the primer test.

Bass Ackward
01-31-2007, 07:13 PM
Some of you change to after market springs with good results. A good spring like the Wolff spring, even though lighter, is FASTER and the hammer still hits hard. You can replace power with speed and still have the accuracy built into the gun.


44,

Well I would think that this is physically impossible. If a spring is lighter, it is going to exhibit less force. The hammer weighs the same. Less force to push the hammer, equates to less hammer speed and less force.

I think you still have trouble separating the two factors for this reason. The trick on actions with long lock times is to lighten the firing pin weight by going to titanium pins. Take the 98 for example. The firing pin blow is so hard, the gun lerches forward on an empty chamber. Changing to a lighter firing pin gives a lighter impact force, but more impact speed to improve accuracy. And one of the best ways to improve ignition in handguns is to replace the firing pin with a longer one. My Redhawk has one .005 longer than before.

My point is that you still have to diagnose the correct problem. And of coarse headpsace also determines impact force required which is why poor headspace from shooting light cast loads or too much end play in handguns causes accuracy problems.

Ricochet
01-31-2007, 07:58 PM
I agree, you physically can't have a faster moving striker with a lighter spring force. Not without lightening the moving mass of the striker.

44man
02-01-2007, 12:41 AM
I have tested a lighter but faster Wolff spring against an original Ruger spring by soaking the primer so it would not fire. The indentations measure the same. We are not talking about a great difference in the compression or extension strength between the two springs, just a little and the speed of the hammer only increases slightly. Some after market springs don't cut it and my tests show a difference so I do not buy them. Some springs are so poor, they take a set just sitting in the gun without even shooting.
Some of you are getting the idea that I advocate all weak springs are faster, I am NOT saying that at all. I have said that the properly designed spring, if a pound or so lighter can work as good as a thick, slow one. If any of you pay attention, the good spring is also longer then the original and stores as much energy if not more. I only trust Wolff!
There is a great difference in springs and the treating process and composition of the steel. A good spring CAN get the same weight moving faster then a thick, cheap one. I can even see and hear the difference when dry fired.
Bass, if you could measure the force applied to the primer between the heavy pin and the lighter one going faster, it would most likely be the same. You forget the inertia of the heavy pin just getting started, that takes energy which is wasted. Once the pin has done it's work at the primer, any additional push is wasted energy. You have to remember that rifle was designed for tough military primers and made to work with dirt and even sand in the action. The secret is to get the proper work out of the pin with no more or less then the primer needs, but less is always worse then a little more.
I have purposely left out headspace and endshake problems as they do not enter into what I have tried to convey, those are other issues. Needing a longer pin is correcting a deficiency in the gun itself.
I have been saying that a weak mainspring can cause accuracy problems in an otherwise perfect gun, no more, no less!
Other causes I never mentioned because it goes back to gun condition; a set spring from age, rust, grease or oil in cold weather, Dried out lube in a bolt, dirt or other crud around the pin, dried out WD-40 in the bolt, a cut spring and there are most likely others.
I can also see that my hammer on my SBH is moving slower then it used to and the spring needs replaced again---YES I can see it and hear it. I know what it is supposed to do from experience.

44man
02-01-2007, 12:59 AM
In case any of you are interested, there is a problem with Ruger and BFR revolvers when making the trigger pull too light. If it is too light, the trigger will push your finger ahead a little, dropping the transfer bar to the lower edge of the firing pin where it can slip off, or not transfer enough energy to the primer. Poor accuracy, hangfires or failure to fire at all will result. If you look at a cocked gun you can see that the transfer bar only covers half the pin.
I get my single actions down to a pound or pound and a half pull without the problems above even though my finger is pushed a little.
I make new transfer bars out of tool steel (By hand.) and make them longer to cover the entire pin. It takes some fitting and you have to know what you are doing but it works like a charm.
I harden and temper them and my SBH has over 57,000 to 58,000 rounds with my bar and shows no wear. By using the proper lube and never cocking the gun fast and hard, I have no side play or endshake. It is exactly the same as when I bought it and is as accurate.

joeb33050
02-01-2007, 06:29 AM
No, the 223 is gone. I'm going to start a new thread on this subject, with what I know now. I think it's interesting and maybe a source of techniques to improve accuracy.
Thanks;
joe b.


Joe,

There is a difficult time proving or disproving this because of us speaking a different language. Like bore diameter when we really mean groove diameter.

If you lighten the force of impact, the firing pin has to slow down. Does lock time affect accuracy? No and yes. Only when an individual is placed at the other end inducing human error. The faster it goes, the less time there is for the shooter or his heart beat to screw things up.

So if someone said that you can increase the speed of your ignition as an option, would you take it? I would. But now that that firing pin is moving faster, because the weight of the firing pin is constant, it is now also hitting with more force.

So which one is causing the inaccuracy or the accuracy improvement depending on which way you go? Force .... or speed. You would have to take the human element out of it. And it would then depend on the weight of the impact. If you had a 98 Mauser locked down, I doubt that you would see much change. If you had a Savage 110 locked down where the pin is light, then you would maybe see some variance. The 110 is a great platform for testing this because the pin tension is fully adjustable.

Then there is one more factor, the depth of the pin would play a part also. And again the 110 platform can be adjusted for pin depth as well as tension. Still got your 223?

Navahojoe
02-01-2007, 11:18 PM
Not trying to hijack a thread, but since Lee Hand Primers and CCI have already been mentioned! This is to remind me and other Newbies about the use of primers, because I am sure that all the more seasoned cast boolit reloaders already know it!
the following is a quote from the instruction manual in my Lee Auto Prime:

" WARNING
"Use the correct primer, do not force it. Primers should go in easy. Users have reported that the primers in the tray of an Auto Prime can explode for various reasons--some of which include a cocked primer, or an attempt to prime a case which has a primer already in place, or more than one primer on the punch, or priming a military case in which the crimp not completely removed.
Should an explosion occur, our tests have demonstrated that safety glasses will normally prevent serious injury to the user if the proper brand and quantity of primers are used. Other primers, especially FEDERAL, can explode with sufficient force to seriously injure the user, or persons nearby.
Only those primers in the amounts listed are recommended for use in the Lee Auto Prime, and when loading those primers safety glasses must be used. Never place more primers iin the tray than the amount listed.

Brand Type Amount
CCI All 100
Winchester Pistol Small 100
Winchester Pistol Small Magnum 20
Winchester Pistol Large 20
Winchester Rifle Large Magnum 20
Winchester Rifle Large Standard 10
Remington Small Pistol #5 1/2 100
Remington Large Pistol #2 1/2 100
Federal ALL DO NOT USE

Other brands or types have not been tested or have been tested and are not safe. " End of Quote

So, it is not a matter of size of the primer in the Lee Hand Tools. It is a matter of brand and quantity and those primers exploding, as more than one at a time. And CCI is one of the recommended brands. And yes, I use CCI primers, exclusively.
Regards
NavahoJoe

44man
02-02-2007, 10:57 AM
Do you think Lee would have fits if I told them how many hundreds of thousands of Federals I run through the tool?

Navahojoe
02-02-2007, 08:39 PM
44man
dont know if they would or not. You might try telling Lee and its possible, not probable, that they will change the instruction sheet.
By the way, I appreciate your input and comments on this site. I have learned a great deal by just reading your comments.
regards,
NavahoJoe

Treeman
02-02-2007, 10:17 PM
Lee emphatically DOES NOT state that there is anything WRONG with Federal Primers. They simply cannot recommend them for the autoprime because of their composition and the possibility of group detonation. Lee states that they work fine and can be used singly.

Considering the gazillion primers I have seated without detonating them -inclucing a number that were crushed into primer pockets sideways I'm not surprised by anyone seating 1000s of Federals without a problem. OTOH I did manage to get a primer to explode during seating once. IF that were a to cause a chain reaction in a primer feed tube or autoprime tray it would be scary. IF it were to cause a spontaneous detonation of 100 primers at once it might get well beyond a need to change one's drawers.

mainiac
02-02-2007, 11:23 PM
I must have primed at least 100,000 cases with fed 205&210 primers with the lee tool,and likewise,ive never had a problem either.

Dale53
02-03-2007, 12:57 AM
Lee's tests showed that IF the Federals went off, the force is considerably greater than the recommended primers.

My independent tests years ago with Large Pistol Primers showed me the same thing. However, I was not using a Lee tool (Progressive Press) and I preferred Federals expressively BECAUSE of their greater force (in my IPSC .45 ACP 1911 with hard ball equivalent loads.

Dale53

Navahojoe
02-03-2007, 08:19 PM
It does not make me any difference what kind of primers one uses, nor what they use to seat the primer, left up to the individual. I like BullShop's example of crossing the log because it was good and then after he fell off the log, not so good. People use Federal primers in the Lee hand primer tool for years with no problem, then Murphy's Law takes effect. Too late to say Oh Crap! I shouldn't have done that. There are always people who exceed the max charge in the reloading tables. Well Damn! I just blew up my firearm, and messed up a perfectly good pair of drawers, didn't have them on but for a week. :mrgreen: Wonder why my Colt, or Smith, or Tarus, ect, blew up?? :confused: Myself, I don't put Federal primers in the Lee hand primer tool or exceed max charge. I start small and work up.. At a mere 60 yrs of age, I still need all of my eyes, fingers, ear drums and other important parts.

regards,
NavahoJoe
:castmine: so I can:Fire: