How fast can you push a flat base bullet

[Judan_454]

I have a Lee .452 FB 252 grain bullet mold I was wondering how fast I could push that bullet in the flat base configuration. I will be shooting it out of Taraus 454, it was going to be used in upcoming deer hunting season in Novmeber. I would like to get to work on some load and bullet devolopment on it. Is the speed limted to 1400 fps before you would have to go to a gas check configuration?
Dan

[Blackhawk45hunter]

Your bullet fit, lube and powder selection will determine your velocity ceiling. I personally load a custom 325 gr Keith (plain base) @ 1250 fps in my blackhawk 45 colt with no leading and great accuracy.

You should have no problem reaching 1400-1500 fps assuming your lube is sufficient and you bullets are sized +.002 larger than your bore is slugged at.

A gas check just makes it easier to get good results, it's not a necessity.

[cbrick]

You should have no problem reaching 1400-1500 fps assuming your lube is sufficient and you bullets are sized +.002 larger than your bore is slugged at.

Not quite.

The only reason to slug the bore of a revolver is to be sure the groove diameter is at or only slightly smaller than throat diameters.

Slug the throats and size to a mild snug fit in the throats. If the groove diameter is larger than throat diameters you will never get rid of the leading, gas check or not. If you size the bullets larger than throat size and assuming you can chamber them they will be throat size when they exit the throats. Revolver throats are the best bullet sizers on the planet.

If your revolver is properly dimensioned (many are not) and you size to fit the throats simply work up your loads and see how hard you can push the PB bullet. Eventually you will run up against either leading or degraded accuracy. Only your gun knows for sure, there is no speed limit except what your gun tells you.

Rick

[randyrat]

That"s a dito on boolit size....

All perfect and a boolit that is at least +.002-.003 over groove diameter. Fat enough but skinny enough to fit in the chamber or cylinder.

Of course, you can have a good fat boolit, but if your throats constrict it down in size nothing matters. So my point is; check your cylinder throats to be sure they are not restricting or down sizing your boolits. Your barrel will size them. ( I use a soft lead cast boolit and press a new boolit through each cylinder then measure them)

Be sure to read up on loading the .454 there are some interesting threads on it= Primers selections, powder choices, problems and solutions for the 454.

[MtGun44]

No set limit. Powder choice, boolit design, fit, lube, bore condition, throat dimensions, groove
diameter, etc. all have significant input on results. 1400 should be real doable, but may
require some testing.

Bill

[bearcove]

And 1200 should do fine for deer.

[454PB]

I don't know about other Taurus .454's, but mine will not chamber a round where the boolit is sized larger than .4525".

I use that same Lee boolit in my Taurus, and it works fine up to the 1300 FPS that I drive it. It may work at a higher velocity, but I've never tried it.

[Blackhawk45hunter]

At practical pistol ranges, 1300 fps is MORE than enough with that bullet weight. Any faster and all you're gaining is muzzle blast, recoil and hearing loss. If penetration is an issue, switch to a heavier bullet.

[44man]

1300 fps is magic on deer!
I don't know how fast PB can be shot but have taken them to 1800 fps. My normal velocity with a PB in my 45-70 BFR is around 1630 fps.
My problem is the boolit needs to be at least water dropped WW metal and at that speed it just punches a little hole through deer.
This season I will have a two part boolit with a hard base.
I would suggest not making the .454 too fast either unless you have some nose expansion.

[geargnasher]

Listen to 44man and CBRick!

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

Juden 454

You can cast a PB'd cast bullet, especially a flat and not beveled based bullet, hard and get very good accuacy upwards of 1400+ fps. For hunting the SWC or WFN is best with such a hard bullet.

However, I have found that such a bullet that is GC'd can be cast of a soft malleable alloy can also be driven to the same 1400+ fps with the same or better accuracy. The advantage of such is that an expanding bullet kills quicker. That's not to say that the hard cast bullet doesn't kill well because it does. The softer alloyed bullet that expands just kills quicker because it causes more terminal damage. An appropriate HP'd soft cast GC'd bullet in such handgun cartridges for use on deer is even better.

Brian Pearce writes a very good article in his column, From The Hip, titled Choosing a Bullet For Big Game in the August issue of Handloader that deals with handgun bullet selection. It is a worthwhile read. There is also a worthwhile thread in the hunting forum here that deals with softer cast HPs in .44 magnum being used extensively on pigs. There are some good pictures and comments and it is a good read also.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Yes Larry, I too love a softer boolit for hunting but once accuracy starts to go away, we need to adjust. Use a GC and you can go softer but the PB needs to be harder. I have not found any way to get away from that.

[Larry Gibson]

44man

That's been my finding over the years also; PB needs to be hard to drive that fast (1400+ fps). Alternative is to use a GC and you can go softer and still drive 'em that fast. I haven't found a way around that either in handguns. It's why I have at least 2 moulds I use for my Magnums; one is a PB's that is most often used for mild or medium loads (950 - 1200 fps) for practice, plinking and small game use. The other is the GC'd design of medium to heavy weight (old weight standards) for the cartridge that I cast softer and most often HP to a degree for use on medium and large game. These are driven at top end magnum loads in 6 - 7 1/2" barreled revolvers and * - 10" Contender barrels at 1350 - 1600 fps.

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

i'm in agreement with the "you don't need all that speed" camp.
i'll take some boolit smoosh a flat nose and two holes every time.
1200 fps is about 500 miles per hour, i doubt a deer will move outta the way.
i have pushed plain based ww/pure 75/25 +1% tin [air cooled] boolits to 1800 fps easily enough but in longer bbl'd guns.
it's too much on deer.
i have also pushed hornady xtp's slow enough that they didn't expand at 50 yds, they still killed very well.
i know this don't help the original question much.
but it's what has worked for me in the past with everything from the 30 carbine through the 450 express [rimless 454 casull] and 445 super mag.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

it's my understanding that 44 mag 240 gr factory loads are 1150-1200 fps , i know that they will take a deer fine if you can drive a boolit that fast it will have plenty devastating effects on the deer

fenring had a post a while back he was launching 44's from a carbine at hogs , he had a devastator hp and a flat point the results of the flat point were very impressive
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=120786&highlight=hogs
look down to post 19 after all the picks , he is driving the lee about 1500 from a carbine but very nice expansion

between my own results from soft flat lead from my muzzle loader , slugs , his picks and many others flat , soft and heavy sure makes a real killer on game animals

and they don't have to be going that fast

[Larry Gibson]

it's my understanding that 44 mag 240 gr factory loads are 1150-1200 fps

The lower end factory does that from 4" barreled revolvers. Quality 44 Magnum ammo runs pretty good, especially from longer barrels. Just tested some Hornady 200 and 240 gr XTP factory loads. The 200 XTPs run 1742 fps from my 8.4" Contender and 1540 fps from my 6 1/2" Ruger FTBH. The 240 XTPs run 1597 fps from the Contender and 1410 fps from the Ruger. That's right there with my 24.5 gr H110/240 XTP load. The psi for both factory loads was less than the the H110 load and all were less than 30,000 psi(M43). Accuracy was excellent with all BTW.

My 275 gr Lyman Devestator HP runs 1350 fps from the Ruger :bigsmyl2:

Larry Gibson

[63 Shiloh]

I have similar results as 44 man, in that I can push a RCBS 45-405-FN water dropped ww Boolit at .459" with no GC to 1800fps. No leading under a stiff charge of Re 7, lube is White Label CR.

Estimated BHN is around 22.

I too experienced complete penetration even on boars.

Now, I read on Garrets site that penetration is king and he is using Hard Cast in the 45-70 at the 25BHN range. He believes that this is a good thing and goes on to recommend this load for dangerous game.

So, what is the definitive answer with boolit performance? Massive penetration v Expansion ?

Mike

[Love Life]

I have a Lee .452 FB 252 grain bullet mold I was wondering how fast I could push that bullet in the flat base configuration. I will be shooting it out of Taraus 454, it was going to be used in upcoming deer hunting season in Novmeber. I would like to get to work on some load and bullet devolopment on it. Is the speed limted to 1400 fps before you would have to go to a gas check configuration?
Dan

If it is the 255 gr flat point made by Lee with two lube grooves than you can push that bad boy past 1500 FPS with no leading if size and lube are correct. I pushed the previously mentioned boolit past 1500 FPS in my freedom Arms 7 1/2 inch barreled revolver on a regular basis with no leading. It was very accurate and I'm guessing hit like a ton of bricks.

I used the following:
Lee 452-255-RF
Alloy: 1/1 Lino/Pure
Size: .4525
Lube: Speed Green, Lotak Hard, or uncut LLA all worked great
Powder: 2400
Charge: Start at 26.5 gr and work your way up. My load used quite a bit more than what I have listed here, but what is safe in mine may not be safe in yours.

As has been mentioned before size is king.

[x101airborne]

If I may interject a dissenting opinion, speed is great but if you are using these for hunting you need some type of expansion. When I started casting and hunting with them, I noticed that my boolits were doing their job, but there was little shock and often game would run quite a way. When I went to a softer alloy (with MUCH trial and error) and changed my boolit design I found that my game bled more, died quicker, and rarely ran. My 270 SAA is around 10 bhn, ran at 1000 fps, and kill better than ANY of my 20 bhn boolits. No loss on penetration as I have only recovered one boolit that went through one hog and hit the one on the other side. Obviously if I recovered the boolit, it worked on both hogs. The first was 180 pounds and the other was somewhere around 120. The 180 pounder took it through both shoulders and both ribs. Penetration and speed have never been an issue with any of my loads for my purposes.

[44man]

I have similar results as 44 man, in that I can push a RCBS 45-405-FN water dropped ww Boolit at .459" with no GC to 1800fps. No leading under a stiff charge of Re 7, lube is White Label CR.

Estimated BHN is around 22.

I too experienced complete penetration even on boars.

Now, I read on Garrets site that penetration is king and he is using Hard Cast in the 45-70 at the 25BHN range. He believes that this is a good thing and goes on to recommend this load for dangerous game.

So, what is the definitive answer with boolit performance? Massive penetration v Expansion ?

Mike
I suppose very large animals could take a harder boolit shot fast.
But I just shoot deer and penetration alone is not good if the boolit is too fast. Some of my deer shot through both lungs went 200 yards and I lost 2. Opening them up showed a small hole in the lungs with little damage around the hole. This from just over 1600 fps. This same boolit at 1300 to 1350 fps just makes pulp of lungs.
I made a WFN and it did the same thing.
I used a softer boolit on a large doe and it was too destructive, it destroyed the off shoulder. I still am looking for the just right mix.
The 45-70 BFR does not like to be shot slow so it will be boolit construction to make it work.
It is a strange feeling to see a deer just go and go with very little blood trail.
I could go to a very heavy boolit, soft and slow, to duplicate a BP load but have not tried it yet. Just not enough hours in the day at my age! :groner:
After seeing the extreme damage without meat loss using the .44, .475 and Whit's .500 JRH I thought faster would work with the same hardness but I was mistaken. Turns out the deer is nothing but a sheet of paper to those fast, hard boolits! Slow them and internal destruction goes up.
Distance means a lot too, deer shot very far with the fast boolit will die faster then one shot at 20 to 40 yards because the boolit has slowed.
I went out last night with Bioman, seen 10 deer and missed one with a long bow. I reverted to my normal anchor point when I should have used my middle finger so I shot over a big doe. But it was fun anyway. I am not ready for deer yet because it is warm out. I was surprised with the size of the deer, many large ones. We can only shoot doe for 2 weeks, next week is muzzle loader.

[Larry Gibson]

I noticed that my boolits were doing their job, but there was little shock and often game would run quite a way. When I went to a softer alloy (with MUCH trial and error) and changed my boolit design I found that my game bled more, died quicker, and rarely ran.

Exactly the reasons why I went to the softer expanding bullet cast bullet in handguns and rifles years ago. I also changed from the "behind the shoulder shot" to puting the bullet throught the heart/lung area between the front legs. With softer alloys that expand, penetrate and do not shatter, meat damage is acceptable, especially out of handguns at 1350 - 1450 fps.

So, what is the definitive answer with boolit performance? Massive penetration v Expansion ?

The OP, Juden 545, is talking deer here. So just how much massive penetration is needed? Since I don't do Texas heart shots, not that much penetration is needed for through and through shots on deer. Thus I prefer to match the bullet/velocity to the game. Deer are not hard to kill and the expanding cast bullet does it better than a hard cast bullet. Even on pigs in the 150 -250 lb size and elk I've found that a 429244 at 270 gr cast soft, mildly HP'd and pushed at 1350 fps gives complete pentration on shots I will take. I prefer sufficient pentration and expansion to choosing between the two. I'm looking forward to using the Lyman Devastator 275 gr HP.

Again, all this is not to say a hard cast SWC or WFN will not kill because they will. I have used them and would use them again, without hesitation, if my own soft cast loads were not available. I've just come to preferring the better terminal effect of the softer expanding cast bullet on game and I prefer to match the bullet alloy and HP to the game for better terminal effects.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Exactly right. I want two holes but just enough penetration for that is enough.
Bust up enough inside and a blood trail will be huge even with a smaller exit hole.

[josper]

I shot a small buck with a patched round ball,pure lead.I hit it just behind the rt. shoulder,I found the ball flatened out like a quarter just under the skin on the far side.That deer went down like he was body slamed.The rifle was a TC .50cal hawken. Big,slow and soft will do it every time IMO.

[Marlin Junky]

I have a Lee .452 FB 252 grain bullet mold I was wondering how fast I could push that bullet in the flat base configuration. I will be shooting it out of Taraus 454, it was going to be used in upcoming deer hunting season in Novmeber. I would like to get to work on some load and bullet devolopment on it. Is the speed limted to 1400 fps before you would have to go to a gas check configuration?
Dan

Usually, pistols have moderate twist rates (because they handle relatively short boolits) and reasonable groove depths (never seen a MicroGroove pistol) so fit, hardness, lubrication and pressure (tied to hardness) are all you need to worry about with respect to achieving repeatable and dependable hunting accuracy. If Elmer Kieth were alive today (he'd be 112), he'd probably agree with the velocity recommendations already given.

MJ