What am I missing?

[oldandslow]

Greetings to all,

Even after reading all the helpful ideas here and elsewhere I'm stumped.

Background- I've reloaded about 80,000 rounds of .45, 9mm, 38sp and .357 in the last six years, all jacketed bullets.

Over the last three months I've been happily smelting, alloying and casting mainly due to the enthusiasm of the members here. I cast in ww with 2% added tin at 750 degrees (measured) and either air or water cool and measure BHN values (8.5 for acww and 14.5 for wcww).

Problem- extensive leading over whole length of barrel despite bullet base size, different lubes and BHN hardness values.

Pistol= SW 4516 with 5910 jacketed rounds through it, barrel clean. Barrel slugged at 0.451 inches.

Mold- Lee #TL-452-230-2R 6 cavity aluminum mold. Bullet drop size is 0.453-0.455 inches depending on which cavity is measured.

All bullets sized via Lyman 4500, dropping at 0.4515-452 inches.

Lubes used include Recluse' 45-45-10 tumble lube, White Label BAC and 50-50 (both pan lubed), different dilutions of JPW and Alox (dip lubed), Candle wax-alox (dip lubed) and JPW alone (dip lubed). Some were better than others but still significant leading after each 23 test rounds.

Bullets were pulled after cartridge assembly and the 0.452, .453 and .454 bullets were being swaged down to 0.450 by the brass. I then loaded unresized .45 cases and pulled the bullets. They measured at the pre-loading 0.452 size. I shot the unresized cases and still had extensive barrel leading. Where do I go from here?

best wishes and in fond memory of those lost on 9/11-oldandslow

[dromia]

Have you removed all the copper fouling from you piece?

[dromia]

Welcome to :cbpour: BTW. :D

[Bret4207]

Yup, first things first like Dromia said. Is the barrel free from all copper fouling? Then I would question your half a thou to a full thou over size choice. Will one +.002 fit and function? Bigger is usually better for me to start with, to a point anyway. Those tiny micro bands need all the help they can get to hold the rifling. Then there's the question of powder and charge. What are you shooting behind that boolit? How hard are you pushing it?

Fill us in on that stuff please. Some will say the TL designs are junk from the get go. I don't think all of them are.

[44man]

My guess is also the powders used.
But what is in the WW metal? Boolits should not be getting sized if hard enough and that should be a clue.
Were all the stick on weights left in the smelt?
If they are soft enough to have brass size them down they are surely skidding the rifling.

[725]

As above, Copper in the barrel, driven too fast, & sizing issues. Maybe lube but rather think the first three. I use janitorial strength ammonia while removing copper. Can get it at True Value, etc. May have to ask for it. You'll be surprised how long you still get green patches after you think it's clean. Don't let the ammonia stay in there a long time (overnight) Clean it out with a good penetrating oil.

[subsonic]

Are you taper crimping too tightly?

[44man]

Are you taper crimping too tightly?
Easy to check by seating without a crimp, pull and measure.
A die change might be in order too.

[oldandslow]

Greetings and thanks for the replies, 9/11/11

First- all copper removed. There was no visible copper but I ran some Butch's bore shine copper remover through the barrel and none of the patches were blue.

Second- Powder charge is Unique at 5.5 grains, running 750-800 feet/second on the chrono out of a 3.5 inch barrel.

Third- Bullet composition- ww plus 2% tin, both air cooled and water cooled. Measured BHN with Lee hardness gauge and got 8.5 for the acww and 14.5 for the wcww.

Fourth- about taper crimping. Originally for my jacketed reloads I would put in a stiff taper crimp which helped prevent bullet setback if I repeatedly rechambered the same round. I originally kept the same crimp for the lead reloads but then backed off to a minimal crimp in hopes of lessening the leading. It didn't seem to make much difference one way or another.

I'm at my wits end and my next plan is to buy some reloaded .45 ammo from the local reloader and try his regular lube-grooved (as opposed to tumble lube grooves) ammo and see if I still get leading. If not then I will pull some of his bullets and then load them on my machine and try his bullets in my reloads and see if I lead the barrel. Any other suggestions are appreciated.



best wishes- oldandslow

[oneokie]

How many apps. of lube did you apply?
Did you relube after sizing?

[MtGun44]

Try a conventional lube groove design. Usually the .45 ACP is one of the easiest to do, but
I only use conventional designs. Some swear by tumble lubed designs, some swear at them.

Give a conventional a try, but many have had success with TL in this forgiving caliber.

Bill

[Mk42gunner]

When are you measuring the hardness? Your BHN seems awfully low to me, my ACWW usually ends up closer to 12.5 after a few weeks. I haven't waterdropped a boolit since I got my Lee tester.

Also, I don't add any tin to wheelweights, my molds fill out okay without the added expense. If you stil have some "pure wheelweights" (HA HA) I would try casting a few boolits with that and see how they do. although I can't see 2% Tin makeling that much difference in hardness.

By all means try a boolit with conventional lube grooves. I am shooting Lyman's 452460 sized .452" with FWFL over a healthy charge of W231 with no leading in my Kimber.

Good Luck,

Robert

[44man]

Greetings and thanks for the replies, 9/11/11

First- all copper removed. There was no visible copper but I ran some Butch's bore shine copper remover through the barrel and none of the patches were blue.

Second- Powder charge is Unique at 5.5 grains, running 750-800 feet/second on the chrono out of a 3.5 inch barrel.

Third- Bullet composition- ww plus 2% tin, both air cooled and water cooled. Measured BHN with Lee hardness gauge and got 8.5 for the acww and 14.5 for the wcww.

Fourth- about taper crimping. Originally for my jacketed reloads I would put in a stiff taper crimp which helped prevent bullet setback if I repeatedly rechambered the same round. I originally kept the same crimp for the lead reloads but then backed off to a minimal crimp in hopes of lessening the leading. It didn't seem to make much difference one way or another.

I'm at my wits end and my next plan is to buy some reloaded .45 ammo from the local reloader and try his regular lube-grooved (as opposed to tumble lube grooves) ammo and see if I still get leading. If not then I will pull some of his bullets and then load them on my machine and try his bullets in my reloads and see if I lead the barrel. Any other suggestions are appreciated.



best wishes- oldandslow
That is far too soft for WW metal. Some of your tests are near pure lead.

[Bret4207]

It takes AC cooled castings about 3 weeks to reach their more or less final Bhn. There can be some small size difference too, but it's tiny. WQ seems to get it final Bhn much faster, within a day or 2. But Bhn isn't your answer here.

IMO you need to start with a larger boolit if it will chamber. A half a thou over groove probaly isn;t enough. Try shooting them unsized to start with.

[steg]

+1 with Bret, I don't size at all, and since I stopped, accuracy improved, and leading disappeared

[cbrick]

Already mentioned by Bret and 44man, bullet fit and/or sizing down the bullet while seating. Both need to be checked. New sizing, expanding/belling dies could well be in order.

Doubtful BHN is the culprit, CWW +2% Sn is my standard alloy for almost everything. I have never hardened the alloy for the 45 ACP and get zero leading. In fact air cooled WW is my standard alloy for rifles to 2,000 fps and I get no leading. Your water dropped WW could be part of the problem, too hard causes it's own problems and hardened alloy coupled with the tumble lube design sure doesn't click with me in a low pressure round like the 45.

Also as was already mentioned, try a conventionly lubed bullet with a semi-soft lube. If you don't have a lubri-sizer they can be pan lubed but for someone that has bought 800 boxes J-bullet in six years I'd bet it won't take long for you to own a lubri-sizer. For that many bullets I highly recommend the Star luber.

Odds are excellent that if you adhere to the one hard & fast rule of cast bullets that your probelms will disapear . . . Make the bullet fit the firearm!

Rick

[geargnasher]

I can only reiterate what's been suggested, but I feel another voice in the crowd might help reinforce the concepts.

Any lead alloy that contains Antimony (like wheel weights) needs some time after casting to "age harden", so if you're testing bhn right after casting, this could explain the numbers, which are fairly typical for the alloy you have when the boolits are only a few hours old.

Even if the boolits are only 14 bhn water-quenched at the time they are actually fired, 5.5 grains of Unique under a 230-grain boolit should be right in the "ideal" burn rate and charge weight for your boolit, so I doubt there is any imbalance of powder/alloy going on here, I think you have a fit issue and a problem with the design....

....I will say that I've used that boolit, and it has ALWAYS caused leading problems in my .45s unless I lubed it conventionally, and even then it couldn't be pushed much over 700 fps because the weak driving bands tend to skid the rifling a bit and don't hold pressure very well. It is important to understand that leading is caused by gas leaking around the boolit as it is fired and goes down the barrel. Combustion gas leaks cause erosion (or "cutting") of the sides of the boolit, and the lead debris/dust is blown in front of the boolit and gets deposited on the bore surface where the passage of the boolit irons it on the surface. Following shots build up this lead even more, since lead likes to stick to itself and will deposit by abrasion. Lack of lubrication will also cause leading, and sometimes if the boolit isn't a tight enough press-fit in the barrel tumble lubes will fail dramatically, causing both abrasion leading and gas-leak leading. So, I think like the others here that you need a conventional-groove boolit design with stronger driving bands to help contain the gas pressure and prevent the leaks that ruin the seal.

I have a variety of conventional boolit designs if you'd like to try some, I'd be happy to give you a few already sized and lubed to try and see if it solves your problem before you go buying another mould. You have the option to tumble-lube conventional boolits, and often that will fix a leading problem if your load "balance" of pressure/pressure curve/alloy and boolit fit are ok, but the TL bands are too weak.

Gear

[Lizard333]

I can only reiterate what's been suggested, but I feel another voice in the crowd might help reinforce the concepts.

Any lead alloy that contains Antimony (like wheel weights) needs some time after casting to "age harden", so if you're testing bhn right after casting, this could explain the numbers, which are fairly typical for the alloy you have when the boolits are only a few hours old.

Even if the boolits are only 14 bhn water-quenched at the time they are actually fired, 5.5 grains of Unique under a 230-grain boolit should be right in the "ideal" burn rate and charge weight for your boolit, so I doubt there is any imbalance of powder/alloy going on here, I think you have a fit issue and a problem with the design....

....I will say that I've used that boolit, and it has ALWAYS caused leading problems in my .45s unless I lubed it conventionally, and even then it couldn't be pushed much over 700 fps because the weak driving bands tend to skid the rifling a bit and don't hold pressure very well. It is important to understand that leading is caused by gas leaking around the boolit as it is fired and goes down the barrel. Combustion gas leaks cause erosion (or "cutting") of the sides of the boolit, and the lead debris/dust is blown in front of the boolit and gets deposited on the bore surface where the passage of the boolit irons it on the surface. Following shots build up this lead even more, since lead likes to stick to itself and will deposit by abrasion. Lack of lubrication will also cause leading, and sometimes if the boolit isn't a tight enough press-fit in the barrel tumble lubes will fail dramatically, causing both abrasion leading and gas-leak leading. So, I think like the others here that you need a conventional-groove boolit design with stronger driving bands to help contain the gas pressure and prevent the leaks that ruin the seal.

I have a variety of conventional boolit designs if you'd like to try some, I'd be happy to give you a few already sized and lubed to try and see if it solves your problem before you go buying another mould. You have the option to tumble-lube conventional boolits, and often that will fix a leading problem if your load "balance" of pressure/pressure curve/alloy and boolit fit are ok, but the TL bands are too weak.

Gear

I'd take him up on that offer. Gear knows what he is talking about. He'll save you time, grief and money. What more could you ask for??

[oldandslow]

Thanks to all for the input, 9/13/11

I've purchased some reloaded lead rounds from the local reloading factory and pulled the bullets. They have the conventional lube grooves. I will try some of his loaded rounds today and if they work I will pull more of his bullets and load them in my machine and brass and see what happens.

A special thanks to "gear" for his input here and in other threads. It was his suggestion on another thread to pull a loaded bullet and check the base diameter to see if the brass case had swaged my bullet (it had). I emailed Dillon about the problem and their only suggestion was using a harder bullet than the 14.5 water cooled bullet I tried. I think the plan of using a conventional lube groove bullet is probably the way to go at the moment because from my reading either an air-cooled or water-cooled .45 bullet works for most in the .45 caliber and a super-hard alloy is not needed.

I'll do some experimenting this week with the conventional lube groove bullet and let you know what happens.

best wishes- oldandslow