My first look at bad powder.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have been a proponent of using old powder for my entire life. If properly stored powder will last indefinately and especially in the new style plastic containers that will never rust out.

I went to my local club meeting and a friend gave me an unopened can of IMR4895 made in 1980 and stored indoors for the whole time.

I just finished loading my can of 4895 from 1978 and it was fine, however when I opened the can he gave me it looked and smelled odd.

First; there was fine rust dust in the powder, and obviously the can had started to rust on the interior. This showed up as billowing red dust when I poured some out.

Second; the powder did not have the standard blue black graphite look to it. It was slightly yellowish in color. Especially obvious when compared to the good stuff.

Third; It didn't pass the smell test. It had a distinctive "sweet" smell to it.

It is now fertilizing my wifes roses.

This is the first time in my 40 years of reloading that I have ran into bad powder.

I'm just glad I had read enough in books and magazines, to know how to recognize it when I saw it.

Randy

[geargnasher]

I have yet to see bad powder, although I habitually check my old cans with a sniff and quick visual to see if anything is out of the ordinary. IIRC an acetic acid smell is common with degrading powders, as is the rust dust you describe. I was under the impression that the brown dust was the retardant coating on the kernels degrading/oxidizing, which would leave you with some really fast powder, even with one that is single-base.

Glad you caught it and disposed of it properly! I use pulldown or powder of questionable ID for my wife's garden.

Gear

[Rocky Raab]

BTW, that red dust in the powder is NOT rust from the can. That's actually degraded powder.

If you see that dust when you open a can, get rid of it ASAP. The extra oxygen you admit when you open the can will accelerate the decomposition - possibly to the point of self-ignition.

[Shuz]

About 20 years ago a friend and I both experienced questionable DuPont 4064. We discovered that his and my lot numbers were the same and bought from the same outlet at around the same time. The powder was rusty and smelt different. So far it has been the only degraded powder I have come across in over 45 years of loading.

[jonk]

The rust and smell is a sure sign. The yellow color is not; some lots of 4895 have a light yellow tint to them.

[Recluse]

My daddy taught me to always sniff the powder each time I open a can up for a reloading session. Been doing that for forty years now.

:coffee:

[ColColt]

I still have a 4 pound keg of Unique I know has to be35 years old and even though there's but maybe half or less left, it still looks and smells like it should but it's never been kept anywhere but indoors, downstairs with temps varying maybe two degrees. I think that's the key to longevity.

[zomby woof]

If you see that dust when you open a can, get rid of it ASAP. The extra oxygen you admit when you open the can will accelerate the decomposition - possibly to the point of self-ignition.

Never heard of this.

I found only IMR powders exhibit the red dust. I bought some IMR powder that was kept in a garage. It was most definitely exposed to wide temperature swings. I've been loading this powder with good results. Now I'm not using it for match loads, but for cast it works just fine. I've removed the red dust and loaded with the dust there. It doesn't seem to make much difference. It has no smell. I'm going to keep using it.

[captaint]

A few years back, I had to dump 2 cans of 70's vintage powder. It looked wrong and smelled really wrong. That was before the dehumidifier in the basement. All's well now. enjoy Mike

[prs]

I've not noticed the red dust, then again the degraded powders I have witnessed were Hercules brand and had been stored in the loft of an old shed with very high and low temps and humidity, paper tube cans. The powder had a distinct acrid smell and the bottoms and sides of the cans were wet, but not with water -- maybe nitro? The owner wanted to give it to me, we poured it in the toilet and flushed.

prs

[mpmarty]

I'm still using the last of a hundred pounds of H-4831 bought in 1962. Works great as does a similar lot of H-380 from the same time frame. Fifty bucks for a hundred pounds of 4831 was too good to pass up even in those days. Anybody got any Hi Vel #2 laying around?

[fatelk]

I've ran across bad powder before. I noticed 4895 and 4064 mentioned specifically in a couple posts; oddly enough those are the powders I've had go bad.

I had a bunch of old surplus 4895 that started with the red powder, then a bad smell. I loaded different rounds with it over the course of a year or so. They seemed to shoot OK but then I was working up a new load and was getting lower velocities than I expected. I checked the powder and noticed a brown gas coming from it when I opened the can. I left the can to sit in a shed and it degraded so bad it ate through the can, clumped up and would barely burn when I finally dumped it in the driveway and put a match to it.

For another year I was finding any ammo I had loaded with it. The rounds were all corroding from the inside out. They were ruined; brass, bullet and all. It's like the powder deteriorates into strong acid of some kind.

Marty- I have some of that old 4831. I've used an awful lot of it over the years; I started with a 20lb jug of it that was given to me when I bought my first loading tools in the late 80's: an old Herters press and dies. I found another large batch of it from an estate and it worked great too. I'm down to just a few pounds left.:)

[jakharath]

I have loaded some OOOOLLLLDDDD Unique. Loaded a few rounds of 38 to try. It was dirty but it shot fine. So I loaded up a bunch of 45acp and it all shot fine. My 1911 was filthy afterwards... But hey, free powder is free powder!

[skeet1]

I had some U.S. Govt. surplus H322 sold by Hodgdon some time back that went bad. The metal cap started rusting and the powder had the rusty dust in it. When I call Hodgdon they told me to dispose of it and they sent me new powder. A good company.

Ken

[Blanket]

I'm still using the last of a hundred pounds of H-4831 bought in 1962. Works great as does a similar lot of H-380 from the same time frame. Fifty bucks for a hundred pounds of 4831 was too good to pass up even in those days. Anybody got any Hi Vel #2 laying around? Loaded up the last HiVell 2# I had into some 308,s last year. Worked fine. I still have a small quantity of WW2 surplus 4895 and 4831 that my father got in the 50's that is been stored in sealed ammo cans and is fine. Russ

[cutter_spc]

I had a can of Vihtavuori N160 go bad on me in a plastic jug, same red dust you guys have been describing. But I believe it was my fault as it was store high on a self in my non-climate controlled garage for about 8 years. I now store my all of my powder and primers in the house as I too believe that constant cooler temps play a roll in their longevity.

[QUON]

I only had one can of imr 3031 go bad on me in the late 80's. Loaned a can to another new reloader. he made 20 rounds and put the powder in a safe place in his basement. The can was put on a metal pie pan on a top shelf. It started to rust from the bottom of the can. What a waste of gun powder. but a good lesson learned

[Beau Cassidy]

I have probably 30 1 lb cans of IMR4350, 4064, and 7828 from about '94. The last few cans I opened were bad. I am swaying away from IMR powders for this reason. I have never had other powders go bad and some of those include 2400 and unique from the 50's.

[Jim]

From page 3 of IMR Handloader's Guide for Smokeless Powders. (http://www.imrpowder.com/pdf/IMR_refcharts.pdf)

RELOADING SAFETY

Reloading ammunition is an enjoyable hobby, and can be conducted safely if certain rules are followed:
1. Exercise care and common sense at all times.
2. Don't become distracted when you are handloading.
3. Never load in haste. A careless mistake can be serious.
4. Use equipment as manufacturer recommends.
Never take shortcuts.
5. Store powder in a cool, dry place at all times.
6. Never use a powder unless you are positive of its identity.
7. Never substitute smokeless powder for black powder.
8. Never use IMR powder data for any other powder types
with similar numerical designations.
9. Keep powder away from heat and open flames.
10. Never smoke while handling powder.
11. Keep powder out of reach of children.
12. Don't mix powders.
13. Don't keep more powder in an open container than
you need.
14. Observe all maximum load warnings in handbooks.
15. Work up all new loads starting 10% below the
recommended maximum charge weight.
16. Examine every case before loading to insure it is in good
condition.
17. Watch for indications of high pressures in establishing a
new load.
18. Never use smokeless powder in firearms designed for
black powder.
19. DO NOT use steel shot in any of the shotshell loads listed
in this guide.
20. Use of safety glasses while reloading is recmmended.
21. Clean up any powder spills immediately. Use dust pan and
brush to clean up powder. Dispose of it in accordance
with recommended procedures.
22. Make sure powder container is empty before disposing of
container.
23. Consult suppliers of components if you have any
questions about their use.
24. Check powder charges regularly to insure using proper
powder charge weight.
25. Develop a routine for reloading to guard against mistakes.

I do know that sometimes powder deteriorates without any influence. I have to wonder, though, how much powder has gone bad because it was subjected to temperature swings like those found in basements and out buildings.

I keep all my powder and primers in a decommissioned refrigerator in my gun room. I have two 3 lb. butter tubs of moisture absorbing cat litter in the fridge to keep moisture and stale smell down. This method does not guarantee that my powder will never degenerate, but it sure goes a long way in helping to prevent it.

[noylj]

Also, you will usually get a brown cloud of nitric acid when you open the can.
There is really no way to miss bad powder.
If you ever see "rust" on the inside of a can, it means that the contents are reacting with the can and the material must be disposed of.
I have never gotten a "sweet" smell from powder, except the can of PB I bought years ago just reeked of MEK.

[largom]

Had several cans of IMR4198 develope the red rust symdrome. Loaded some up and it shot fine but it just was'nt worth the risk so I poured it around the holly trees.

Larry

[W.R.Buchanan]

A point I want to make after this thread has gone for a couple of weeks, and from my research on this subject and input from guys here and in my gun club. IE: lots of experienced sources.

IS this:

First: the red dust is NOT rust! it is degraded powder, and it is dangerous.

Second: Storage conditions are not as critical as one would have been lead to believe.

Third: the smell is noticably different than good powder. Sweet and acidic. And it is yellowish in color.

Now:

My good cans of 4895 and all of my powder and primers from 1978 had sat in the overhead of my garage in an open cardboard box for 15+ years. They were heat cycled daily for that long. None of my powder went bad including a paper can of Bullseye. 2 cans of 4895 , 3031, 4350, H110, and a can of W296. None were or are bad and all are vintage 1976-8

However the unopened can of IMR 4895 from 1980, given to me by my friend which had been stored in a bedroom of his house one block away from me, had not been heat cycled nearly to the same degree as mine, and was bad.

WE both lived in the same neighborhood in Ventura CA and surprisingly bought the powder from the same store in town. Ventura CA has a very moderate climate, and the temp swings from a low of 30*F in a bad winter, to a few days of 95*F+ weather about this time every year. IN other words this place has about as stable a temp throughout the year as you can get.

Obviously I am always going to store my powder in the closest thing I can find to a stable environment,,,, NOW! but I think the deciding factor on powder longevity has more to do with the actual Chemistry of the batch than absolute temp control.

I wish I had taken pictures of the different powders next to each other for a visual on this as it was very easy to decern the difference. The good stuff looks like graphite, and the bad stuff is yellowish in color and quite noticable next to the good stuff. Also the red dust which looks like very very fine rust dust, and coats everything it touches, and must be wiped of as it doesn't blow off a surface easily.

I think the main point to take away from this thread is recognizing bad powder is something we may never have to do, but when you need to, it is pretty necessary knowledge in the field of reloading, and recognizing the symptoms is a key safety point.

I hope this info helps to clarify this issue. It was sure an eye opener for me!

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

A point I want to make after this thread has gone for a couple of weeks, and from my research on this subject and input form guys here and in my gun club. IE: lots of experienced sources.

IS this:

First: the red dust is NOT rust! it is degraded powder, and it is dangerous.

Second: Storage conditions are not as critical as one would have been lead to believe.

Third: the smell is noticably different than good powder. Sweet and acidic.

My good cans of 4895 and all of my powder and primers from 1978 had sat in the overhead of my garage in an open cardboard box for 15+ years. They were heat cycled daily for that long. None of my powder went bad including a paper can of Bullseye. 2 cans of 4895 , 3031, 4350, H110, and a can of W296. None were or are bad and all are vintage 1976-8

However the unopened can of IMR 4895 from 1980, given to me by my friend which had been stored in a bedroom of his house one block away from me, had not been heat cycled nearly to the same degree as mine, and was bad.

WE both lived in the same neighborhood in Ventura CA and surprisingly bought the powder from the same store in town. Ventura CA has a very moderate climate, and the temp swings from a low of 30*F in a bad winter, to a few days of 95*F+ weather about this time every year. IN other words this place is about a stable a temp throughout the year as you can get.

Obviously I am always going to store my powder in the closest thing I can find to a stable environment, NOW! but I think the deciding factor on powder longevity has more to do with the actual Chemistry of the batch than absolute temp control.

I wish I had taken pictures of the different powders next to each other for a visual on this as it was very easy to decern the difference. The good stuff looks like graphite, and the bad stuff is yellowish in color and quite noticable next to the good stuff. Also the red dust which looks like very very fine rust dust, and coats everything it touches, and must be wiped of as it doesn't blow off a surface easily.

I think the main point to take away from this thread is recognizing bad powder is something we may never have to do, but when you need to, it is pretty necessary knowledge in the field of reloading.

I hope this info helps to clarify this issue. It was sure an eye opener for me!

Randy