Mould: inexpensive, light, .452, AND with gas check?

[Whiterabbit]

Hi guys,

I'm just getting into casting and I think I am going to have a ball. I load 7x57 and 460 S&W and from even cursory searches I can tell this forum is gonna be a fantastic resource.

I see that LEE offers a bullet mould that is 300 grain w/ gas check @ .452, and that's great. I like the price and would be great intro for casting. But if I am casting anyways, my favorite bullet really is the Hornady 200 grain flex tip, and if I could find a reasonably priced mould @ LESS than 300 grains and including a gas check, that would just be the bee's knees. (spitzer would be just more over-the-top great)

This is not an easy mould to find! Is anything like this out there? seems like the lighter stuff is designed for 45 acp, not for gas-checked designs. custom moulds seem to start @ $80+, not good for new guys like me!

[MtGun44]

Good luck, can't think of any. Most applications for .452 diam have no earthly need for
a gas check. Not a fan of checks, but if you want one, you want one. You may be in for
a custom or modified mold if you insist on a GC. Have you tried without one?

Bill

[Whiterabbit]

Actually, I have. Someone else's castings, 250 grain, moly coated, flat nosed. 6% antimony, 2% tin. They seem to work, but the moly is serious heck to clean out of a barrel. They fire well too, but after hoppes #9 and cleaning till the patches are clean, the barrel still "looks" dirty, and I have no idea what is moly, what might be leading if any, if I'd be able to visually recognize buildup, etc. I figured wheelweights with a gas check and no moly would eliminate that concern.

I should mention it was a limited experiment because the caster recommended a 1400 fps cap on his bullet speeds, and even mild 460 loads are approaching 2000 fps. I don't know what the long term effect would be shooting not only moly through a gun that shares lead, jacketed, and non-lead projectiles, but also non-gas-checked rounds way beyond manufacturer's spec of 1400 fps.

why, if they shoot by the dozens with no issues, am I good to go to shoot them by the hundreds or thousands?

[rbertalotto]

Most applications for .452 diam have no earthly need for
a gas check.


454 Casull or 460 S&W...........

[fisheadgib]

The reason that you can't find a mold for the bullet that you want is that there is no practicle application for it. Most folks that load for big bore, high energy rounds want a heavier bullet to utilize the full potential of the chambering. Big, light bullets lose energy faster than big heavy bullets and most folks that hunt with big pistols want that energy. I load that 300gr Lee bullet in my 454casull at 1630fps and there's not much in north america that it won't knock down. What are you trying to achieve with this light, fast 460 loading? Are you trying to make a "beanfield rifle" out of a big bore revolver?

[Whiterabbit]

I'm sure Mtgun understood that 454's and 460's have the capability to generate extreme velocity and are the reason he used the word most and not all when describing 45 cal applications.

Fishhead, Looks like the original developed load for the 460 was a 200 grain bullet moving at 2300-ish fps. Which, as the cheapest factory ammunition available, shoots great from my BFR.

On the other side of the spectrum, I've been playing with a 340 grain penn bullet that doesn't seem to stabilize. When I shoot those rounds, including max loads, I always seem to end up with one target with one bullet that flies through the target sideways.

That leaves me wondering if my gun simply prefers lighter bullets, not heavier ones. Or maybe the penn is a one-of-a-kind, simply the wrong bullet for my gun, or maybe the length is not the cause of destabilization here?

---------

Ultimately, my goal with casting is to economically and ergonomically produce accurate bullets for paper and steel shooting at 100 yards (or a smidge more) from a rested bench loaded with H-110 powder (And I'm not chasing max loads if I can avoid it). Non-lead regulations here force me to stick with barnes offerings only when I'm out in the field.

[Harter66]

Look for "check maker" or" free check" here. This fellow,Pat Marlin I think,builds tools for making your own GCs and has tools worked up to check plain based boolits as well.

Just as a geewiz have you considered wadding? My cannon is a lowly BlackHawk in Colts but I've launched some awfully soft 255 gr rnfp that weighed 265gr w/o leading and toyed w/meat trays and waxed 1/8" card stock up to about 1200 fps . My results may have more in getting the load balanced against the alloys than the wadding. The 45-70,90,100etc.use various materials as wadding in even the black powder loads so their use in the 454 and 460 doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I cut mine oversized at about 50cal as I recall to keep them tight against the boolit base,loose loads can cause troubles of their own please look up ringing chambers/bbls.

After many hours of study here and w/other sources the returns on conical pistol type pistol bullets are nearly matched w/an assortment of LNSWC and RNFPs.

[Whiterabbit]

I'll look up the check buzzwords when I get a moment. I have to admit though, the aside interest in conicals has nothing to do with performance, just aesthetics.

What advantage does wadding provide? Can it help the ability to shoot 18 BH plain base cast bullets to 2k fps without concerns for long term wear/damage beyond traditional projectile solutions?

[Frozone]

You might try Mountain Molds (http://www.mountainmolds.com/) and roll your own.
With a little work you get this @ 240g , cheapest is $75. I did get a 200g design but you can't have a crimp groove.

[Moonie]

Whiterabbit, what is your application for said boolits? Plinking? Hunting? Punching paper? Long distance steel?

With this information I think we can help you a bit getter.

[Harter66]

The wadding, in this case is just a barrier between the powder charge, flame and the boolit base. In my case it is only an insulator, I can't say how it will work at higher velocities/pressures. There are many discussions that cover this and many people far more knowledgeable than me.

[Whiterabbit]

Hi Moonie,

Ultimately, my goal with casting is to economically and ergonomically produce accurate bullets for paper and steel shooting at 100 yards (or a smidge more) from a rested bench loaded with H-110 powder (And I'm not chasing max loads if I can avoid it). Non-lead regulations here force me to stick with non-lead barnes offerings only when I'm out in the field.

[dk17hmr]

I milled the top off of a LEE 452-255 RNFP
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=775664

If you cut the mold so the bottom drive band is gone and the lube groove is the bottom of the bullet you can super glue a 45 caliber gascheck on it, size, lube, shoot....mine came out to about 225gr, I shot some out of my 454 but wasnt all that impressed so I went back to the LEE 300gr WFN (great bullet), 370gr SWC, and 410gr RNFP

[MikeS]

I would suggest before you spend any money on any casting equipment (moulds, pots, lead, etc.) that you READ lots of stuff on this site, for starters I would read all the stickies, and then once you have a better idea of what you want to do, do some searches on subjects you're still unsure of, and/or read lots of older posts, etc. Reading is free, so before you spend any money on stuff you may not need, do lots of reading.

I'm curious, what exactly do you mean by 'ergonomically'? I think the problems you were having with those boolits somebody else cast was the molly. If you're new to casting, why not try a conventional plain based boolit design first? I would cast with something other than WW for that cartridge, a good start would be Lyman #2 alloy, which is 90% lead, 5% antimony, and 5% tin. You can buy some alloy that's pre-made from Roto-metals, one of the forum sponsors, just click on their link at the top of any page, and it will take you to their bullet alloy page. By using Lyman #2 you can cast them, and let them air cool, rather than water dropping them, something that you would almost certainly need to do with WW lead. Remember, lead boolits shoot differently that jacketed bullets, so trying to duplicate a jacketed load as your first experience casting might not be the best thing to do. Get a mould, cast some, shoot them, try different loadings of that boolit, before you decide that you NEED a gas checked boolit. It's possible that you might, but there's just as good a chance that you won't. and as you want to do this economically, why start with an added expense (the gas checks) when they might not even be needed.

If gas checks were needed, more moulds would be made with GC designs, just something to think about. If going with a Lee mould, I would think about getting a 6 cavity mould, rather than a 2 cavity, as the larger moulds are made better. In either case, don't bother following Lee's instructions, and keep the boolit lube away from the mould! Get some mould lube, one that lots of folks here use is called Bullplate, but there are others available as well. Using a mould lube (or even a high quality 2 stroke synthetic oil), using a Q-Tip put a very thin coating on the tops of the mould blocks, and the bottom of the sprue plate, as well as on the sprue plate hinge screw, and the alignment pins (or on a 2 cavity Lee, the alignment pins, and ridge), and preheat the mould on a hotplate (that goes for ANY mould) before your start casting. What I do is to place the mould on the hotplate (put an old saw blade, or griddle, etc. on the hotplate) at the same time as I initially turn on the lead pot, with the hotplate set on HI by the time the lead in the pot is up to proper casting temp, the mould is too. With proper lubrication, and preheating, the mould should drop nice boolits right from the start with maybe only a couple of fills that need to be culled.

[turbo1889]

I think the man you need to talk too is Tom @ Accurate Molds(.com)

He is a very big proponent of gas checked boolits, especially pistol bullets where most on this forum would scoff at a gas checked design as unnecessary and will cut any and all of his boolit designs with a gas check shank if you desire. As I understand it you desired a light weight 45-cal gas checked boolit, preferably pointy nose shaped, preferably with a crimp groove since you will be loading these in a revolver.

Accurate Molds design # 45-165C is what popped into my head. You could just ask him to add a gas check shank onto the bottom of that design making it slightly longer and slightly heavier and I think that would probably work out pretty nice for doing what you are describing. I would ask him to add the gas check shank onto the bottom of the design rather then just ordering the design as is with the bottom band turned into a gas check shank since I think you would loose too much drive band area for a high energy cartridge doing that since the shear stress loads on the drive bands are going to be enormous on a short bearing length boolit pushed that hard to that high of a velocity in a handgun barrel length.

I realize that means paying more for the mold then you want too but I doubt you are going to find what you are looking for any cheaper then you can get a one cavity aluminum block mold from Tom for.

[HORNET]

Alright, rabbit (why do I hear Yosemite Sam?[smilie=1:), You also have the option of haunting Flea-Bay or the equivalent and looking for one of the old Ideal/Lyman GC .45 molds. Numbers to look for would be 452484 (RN), 452490 & 452491 (SWC), and maybe 454485 (RF). All the 452's are in the 220-230 grain (nominal) weight range with the 454485 running about 250. They do pop up once in a while but not all that often so you may have to wait. The relative scarcity could result in a bidding war that would drive the price up above what a custom mold would cost.
If you're not loading above 1400 fps or so, a plain base design should do fine and be easier on the gun and your anatomy. Some members have used fillers (such as Dacron and/or cream-of-wheat) to increase this velocity substantially in rifle use.

[x101airborne]

So..... what about using a hard cast 270-saa lubed with rifle lube over something bulky like trail boss? Ought to give you about a mild 44 mag out of your "cannon" LOL!! May not even need the upgraded lube. I dont know it is only a thought.