Rifle Grenades

[MakeMineA10mm]

Well, for the fist time in a long time, something happened today that hasn't happened in years: A drastically-new shooting experience for me.

Went to the range today with a buddy, and when most everyone else had left the range at one point, he sheepishly asked if we could shoot something "unusual." Now, when this guy says that, you gotta keep an open mind, because, although it usually falls into a military area, it can be virtually anything...

Well, he had his M1 Carbine laying there, and he pulled out a grenade launcher attachment, three blue (practice) rifle grenades, and a box of crimped-mouth blanks (actually grenade-launching cartridges - it's wrong to think of these as blanks per se).

So, this is something I'd never done before, and before I could say, "I don't think it's a good idea," my grin overcame my brain, and I found I couldn't even speak. All I could do was grin and slowly nod my head affirmatively. :mrgreen:

Being the obsessive military history nut, I needed very little instruction. We took a knee, installed a grenade on the launcher, and began to install a grenade-launching cartridge, but upon noting the gravel-rockyness of the ground, a short delay ensued while my buddy grabbed some padding to protect the buttplate. (I almost didn't wait for him. :mrgreen: )

Inserted cartridge, put butt on the padd, held rifle at 45-degree angle, and ka-boom, and watched the most beautiful seemingly-slow-motion arch of the grenade down-range to the 100m pits... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

So, after I get done laughing nearly uncontrollably, we get to talking (excitedly, naturally) about this, as I already have the sight, practice grenade, and launcher, for the '03 Springfield, but had never thought of actually using them - just saw them as an interesting non-shooting display item. Now, I'm thinking of duplicating the WWII set-up of assembling everything on an 03-A3, and I found load data for 30-06 star-crimped grenade cartridges with commercially-available powder (IMR-4895 in fact) and standard (not long-neck) cases, so I'm set.

Then, my buddy informs me that the grenade cartridges are drying up fast and cost about $75 per 50. (DOH!) What I'm hoping to do is help my buddy with 30-carbine caliber grenade cartridges. Again, I can use my star crimper to close the mouth, but I'm looking for load data. Apparently, the 30 Carbine has such a small capacity that the military loads these cartidges with a mixture of black powder and a non-cannister smokeless powder. Even then, the Carbine struggles to get the heavy modern-day practice grenades to 100 yards (probably a good thing all things considered... [smilie=1: )

So, for a caliber-30 M1 Carbine, M6 Grenade Cartridge, I'm wondering what I can do for a powder charge. Primer, dies, extra-long cases (saved his, they're boxer-primed), and star-cimper for the mouth are all in hand, but the only data I've been able to find shows the military loaded these cartridges with 21gr of powder, and it's a mixture of black powder and IMR4809 (new powder to me - I'd never heard of this even on the surplus market) and the data mentions no clue as to proportion of smokeless to black.

Any ideas?

(Edit to add: Just an apology to the Admin/Mods, but I couldn't think of a "shooting section" this would fit in!! :) )

[DLCTEX]

$75 per 50? These 308 blanks I have are more valuable than I thought.

[andremajic]

This is reminding me of the golfball grenade launchers for the ar-15 rifle that you see in the back of shotgun news!

I'm thinking golf balls would be easier to find and wouldn't be such a big deal to lose either.

Andy.

[Mk42gunner]

I'm not sure what powder I would use, but I really don't think I would use black powder in a gas operated gun.

In all the literature I have read about the M1 Carbine and its amm, it ahas always been stated that all US ammo was non corrosive. I have never read anything about using black powder in the grenade cartridges for it, I'm not sayiong you are wrong, but it doesn't sound right to me.

For a longer case you might be able to use a .223 case, suitably trimmed.

Robert

[30CAL-TEXAN]

I have several War Department Technical Manuals from the 40's including "SMALL-ARMS AMMUNITION" and "AMMUNITION INSPECTION GUIDE" that have specs in them. I will check and see if there is any mention of the charges used in the carbine grenade cartridges.

[30CAL-TEXAN]

Here are some scans of the pages that deal with the Grenade Launching cartridges.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_130844e68342054d42.png (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2068)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_130844e6834402c895.png (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2069)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_130844e6834570f5c9.png (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2070)

Looks like there was indeed black powder used but not in the carbine cartridge. If you can't read it PM me and I will send you a PDF of the scans. I was trying to post the PDFs but apparently I either don't know how or it is not allowed.

[zuke]

This is reminding me of the golfball grenade launchers for the ar-15 rifle that you see in the back of shotgun news!

I'm thinking golf balls would be easier to find and wouldn't be such a big deal to lose either.

Andy.

I was out with my ruger 10/22 and a half dozen golf ball's and MAN it was FUN!!
I finally found a use for those golf ball's!

[firefly1957]

Now there is a thought how golf balls show up in my yard I have been blaming it on crows. I am to far for someone to hit them here but every now and then I hear a odd sounding type of gun fire next time I will have to watch for a golf ball!!!!

[MakeMineA10mm]

THANKS guys! (Especially, 30-cal Texan!!! - and they downloaded just fine.)

Well, back to the drawing board... 1gr of mortar ignition propellant, eh? I'll have to check with an AOW fellow I know who owns several mortars (and a 37mm AT gun), and see what he knows of mortar ignition propellant... I'm suspicious this is fancy terminology for black powder, but we'll see.

I haven't found out what IMR-4809 powder is similar to, but ever resource I've found about grenade launching cartridges and their propellant charges indicates that the powder charge is very similar to the standard powder used in that cartridge for ball ammo. (IMR-4895 is used in the 30-06 grenade cartridge, for example.) Therefore, I'm guessing IMR-4809 is close to IMR-4227 or maybe IMR-4198. The next-faster powder by IMR on the cannister-grade market is SR-4759, but this powder is specifically mentioned as an IMR powder, not the SR powders.

The information from 30-cal Texan is especially useful, as it disagrees (possibly) with other information available, including from the Ordnance Dept. in other sources, BUT, we need to identify what 60mm mortar ignition propellant is, first. If it is as I suspect, black powder, than all the sources agree.

I'll keep you informed of developments and if we're successfull, I hope to get a video of our "Redneck Lawn Darts" games posted up this fall! :grin:

[MakeMineA10mm]

$75 per 50? These 308 blanks I have are more valuable than I thought.

Grenade launching cartridges are not blanks. There is a distinct difference. "Blanks" are used to simulate noise and recoil, hopefully in such a way that the weapon's action functions. Typically, in rifles, they are loaded with moderate doses of fast to very-fast burning propellants.

Grenade Launching Cartridges are very different. They are designed to loft very heavy muzzle-mounted grenades to a pre-determined range by very careful regulation of velocity. To keep pressures reasonable (considering the vast differences between a super-heavy muzzle-mounted projectile, vs. cycling the action on a weapon with a blank-firing-adaptor attached) and performance within parameters, they are loaded with heavy doses of slow-burning propellants.

They are very different animals. GL Cartridges are getting scarce, as the M203 and M79 weapon systems have replaced these in the US military for 50 years now, whereas, blanks are still being loaded by the millions for training...

[Mk42gunner]

I would say that the most common use for grenade cartridges now is for line throwing adapters in the Navy. 2-3 are used every time a ship goes alongside a replenishment ship. Every WestPac I went on we unrepped twice a week, Wednesday and Sunday.

There are other occaions they are used also, I have heard that the bird farms use them for their bow and stern lines when mooring. We also used them when an LCAC died close to the ship, There also used to be a requirement to have six rolls of shot line for man overboard recovery; I guess getting a line shot at you would be better than not getting back onboard, but geez.

I know there are line throwing adapters for both the M-14 and M-16, the m-14 obviously shot farther.

Robert

[MakeMineA10mm]

I would say that the most common use for grenade cartridges now is for line throwing adapters in the Navy. 2-3 are used every time a ship goes alongside a replenishment ship. Every WestPac I went on we unrepped twice a week, Wednesday and Sunday.

There are other occaions they are used also, I have heard that the bird farms use them for their bow and stern lines when mooring. We also used them when an LCAC died close to the ship, There also used to be a requirement to have six rolls of shot line for man overboard recovery; I guess getting a line shot at you would be better than not getting back onboard, but geez.

I know there are line throwing adapters for both the M-14 and M-16, the m-14 obviously shot farther.

Robert

Yes, if we went to a 7.62, we'd be set, because those are still made, as you point out. I wonder if those line-throwing rounds are different than grenade launching rounds? I know in the CG they used to have Lyle guns, which used a 45-70 "blank" to throw line charges several hundred yards out into the surf zone to create a line to rescue passengers from beached ships. (Those were the days, eh?) There was an old (decommissioned) Lyle gun standing on a brick display in front of the guard shack at the gate of Yorktown CG base in VA.

[skeet1]

MakeMineA10mm

Jeff Bartlett sell this powder that is for loading blanks, maybe this is what you need.

WC Blank This is the very same powder as used in the U.S. military .30-06 blanks. A fine
flake powder that is very bulky. Typically loaded at 10gr charge weight in
.30-06. Very, very fast burning, cannot be used with any type of projectile.
Strictly a blank powder only, perfect for any blank.
This is pulldown powder.
$30/3# jug.

Ken

[Mk42gunner]

Yes, if we went to a 7.62, we'd be set, because those are still made, as you point out. I wonder if those line-throwing rounds are different than grenade launching rounds? I know in the CG they used to have Lyle guns, which used a 45-70 "blank" to throw line charges several hundred yards out into the surf zone to create a line to rescue passengers from beached ships. (Those were the days, eh?) There was an old (decommissioned) Lyle gun standing on a brick display in front of the guard shack at the gate of Yorktown CG base in VA.

Sorry for drifting the thread from .30 Carbine to other Grenade cartridges:(

The navy used to use a .45-70 line throwing gun; I never actually saw one, we were using M-14s by the time I joined in 1984. A lot of people told me they used to use 3"/50 primers instead of the line throwing cartridge because they would shoot farther. True or false I don't know, it was before my time.

On my first ship we had a book that told components of small arms cartridges, I think the 7.62 Grenade cartridge used 4064, but it has been almost twentyfive years since I read it.


MakeMineA10mm

Jeff Bartlett sell this powder that is for loading blanks, maybe this is what you need.

WC Blank This is the very same powder as used in the U.S. military .30-06 blanks. A fine
flake powder that is very bulky. Typically loaded at 10gr charge weight in
.30-06. Very, very fast burning, cannot be used with any type of projectile.
Strictly a blank powder only, perfect for any blank.
This is pulldown powder.
$30/3# jug.

Ken

Ken,

Blanks utilize a very fast burning powder, pretty much the opposite of what you want for throwing grenades.

[Jim]

http://jgcphotos.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/p1010001-e1315611443639.jpg

[Shooter]

I have a couple I haven't used yet on my Yugo and FR8.
http://www.serviceofsupply.com/ReproWeaponsAmmo.htm#Rifle Grenades, Rubber
I understand 16 Gr. of Unique work in 7.26X39 and .308. I have not tried it.

[DCP]

Well I am so happy for you two :holysheep

:popcorn:

Wish I could have been there [smilie=b::groner:

I would suspect I need to :kissarse:

:bigsmyl2:

[smilie=s:

[Mk42gunner]

Well my Google-foo isn't working today, I tried to search for IMR 4809 and didn't find much. I will keep trying.......

Robert

[MakeMineA10mm]

Well I am so happy for you two :holysheep

:popcorn:

Wish I could have been there [smilie=b::groner:

I would suspect I need to :kissarse:

:bigsmyl2:

[smilie=s:

It was all a surprise to me! Had no idea he even had the launchers and grenades, let alone had been playing with them. Never mentioned...

If I get these loads worked out, we will be doing a LOT more of it, because the launching cartridges will be very inexpensive!
8-)

[MakeMineA10mm]

Thanks Jim - I already found that referrence, and was my first beginning into tracking down real data. 30-cal Texan found what I believe is one of the TMs referrenced as a source at the bottom of that page you found, and it was the one that mentioned there was a 1gr booster charge made from "60mm Mortar igniting powder." (I suspect, FFFg black powder...) His pic is above in post #6.

Both sources mentioned the IMR-4809.

Mk42- Don't think a thing about thread drift - I do it to myself all the time. I've googled the heck out of IMR-4809, and couldn't find anything, even old surplus deals on it. It's like it was 100% loaded in the grenade cartridge rounds, and there was none left over... My guess is that it's an IMR version of 2400, so something like a short-cut IMR-4227 with slightly quicker burning speed.

[perotter]

It is referenced in US patent #3557700. A couple of European sites say it is similar to IMR-4227. Not much help.

FWIW, Yugo 8mm grenade blanks use the same powder as is used for standard 7.62x39.