45LC in SAA how to tell over pressure?

[MikeS]

Hi All.

I have 3 single action 45LC revolvers. One is a Ruger Blackhawk, one is an Italian SAA clone, one is a Ruger Old Army with a conversion cylinder. I was reading an article about an RCBS SAA boolit in a pdf sample of I think it was Handloading Magazine, and in the article they gave loads in 3 different pressure ranges, 14,000cup, 20,000cup, and I think 30,000cup (for RBH only). In the article they say the 20,000 loads are only for modern American made revolvers, and it got me wondering, my Italian gun is made by Uberti, was made no more than a dozen years ago or so, and has a brand new barrel & cylinder in it (made by AWA-USA inc). Can that gun handle the 20,000cup loads? If so, or if not, when trying a load, how can I tell if it's too hot a load for the gun? I mean if I have a load that's safe in the RBH, but not so in the other 2, will they show signs of over pressure in the 2, but not in the RBH?

Of the three guns, they all have different length cylinders, with the Blackhawk being the longest, and the Old Army with conversion being the shortest. When seating a 452423 or SAECO 458 in the crimp groove cartridges loaded into the conversion cylinder are exactly even with the end of the cylinder! In the instructions that came with the conversion cylinder they say to only use black powder loads, or smokeless cowboy loads that are in the same pressure range. These conversions are made for a number of different guns, most of them Italian BP revolvers, as well as the ROA, and I know the imported guns are of questionable strength, but the ROA's frame is made from the same stainless steel as they use for any of their stainless revolvers, and the conversion has fairly thick walls, and is also made from stainless steel, so what are the chances that the conversion in the ROA can stand stronger loads than other guns with conversions (the manual is the same for all of them), and they just don't say anything different for the ROA for lawyer reasons? If it can, again, how can I tell when it's too much?

I'm really asking more for academic reasons, as I tend to load light as I'm not hunting with any of them. So far I've been using Trail Boss, and loading only 4.2gr which is a fairly light load, and doesn't even fill the case half way, so I tried loading some with PSB buffer in the cases, only enough to be VERY slightly compressed when the boolit is seated (basically just enough so the buffer and powder will stay put, and not get mixed together), will the buffer make the load's pressure go up much? Should I avoid shooting the loads with buffer in either the ROA or Italian gun, and leave them for the RBH, or should they be light enough for any of them?

Sorry for asking SO many questions, and thanks for any answers!

[Chihuahua Floyd]

Mke,
I would treat the SAA Clone and the ROA as non modern guns. Reason being Saa Clones are designs that are over 100 years old and the ROA is designed as a blackpowder gun. When a manual says "Modern American made" I think of guns introduced in the last 50 to 70 or so years, made by Ruger, Smith and Wesson, Dan Wesson, Freedom Arms, ect.
I have 2 Ubertie 45 Colts that I have shot in Cowboy Action for overt ten years without a hiccup. I load on the light side, not watch the bullet go downrange light, but midway of the data for the older guns.
The ROA with a conversion cylinder is in my opiniion a retrofit, not what it started out to be. I would use the recomended loads for the cylinder.
The Ruger Blackhawk is like a tank, just remember that it can be damaged, but you can not get enough Trailboss into a case to to that.
As to fillers, I don't use any. My goto load in the 45 Colt in a 200g RNFP with 4.5g of Clays.
Always verify load data from a 2nd or 3rd source.
CF

[MtGun44]

The Italian guns have had pretty variable metallurgy over the years, pretty difficult to
tell what you have. Not likely to blow it up dramatically, but more likely to pound it out
and cause excessive wear. Non-stainless steel comes in two broad categories, plain
carbon steel and alloy steels. Most quality guns us chrome-molybdenum alloy steels, but
the cheaper stuff uses plain carbon steel. The plain carbon steels run from pretty darn
soft stuff like 1005 or 1010 up to 1095, depending on how much carbon they have. The
high carbon stuff can be heat treated up pretty hard, but tends to lack toughness. The
alloy steels have a pinch of this and than added to improve toughness, hardenability,
wear properties, etc, etc. The problem you have is you most likely have plain carbon
steel on the low carbon side - but we can't easily know exactly what it is. The next issue
is if we did know the exact alloy, how did they heat treat it? Probably not at all, so it
will bend and wear more easily than if heat treated. Probably the steels today, even at
the lower end are about as good as what they used in the 1870s and 1880s, and maybe
a bit better, even.

Bottom line, if you want long life, you should stick to the lower loads. The middle loads
may be "safe" in the sense of not blowing chunks off of the gun, but will likely accelerate
the wear a bunch. Ruger uses chrome-moly steels and heat treats them, too. This
means that not only will they stand far, far hotter loads but the will even wear well in the
bargain. Part of the reason that the foreign guns are cheaper to buy is that the steels
cost less to buy and are easier and faster to machine - because they are softer. Then
they eliminate the heat treating costs, and save more money.
The result is a decent gun, but only suitable for moderate loads and with a
notably shorter working life before wear sets in.

Bill

[felix]

Use known loads in a gun of choice, and pay close attention to the amount of force needed to resize that case. That gives an idea of pressure needed to expand that case to those outside dimensions. The outside diameter is entirely gun dependent, so do not intermix cases when checking the loads out, especially in 45Colt which is one of the worst offenders on how the guns treat the cases. ... felix

[MikeS]

Mike,
I would treat the SAA Clone and the ROA as non modern guns. Reason being Saa Clones are designs that are over 100 years old and the ROA is designed as a blackpowder gun. When a manual says "Modern American made" I think of guns introduced in the last 50 to 70 or so years, made by Ruger, Smith and Wesson, Dan Wesson, Freedom Arms, etc....
CF

I really wish I could find the article I had read, as it basically divided 45's (45LC) into 3 groups, not the usual 2 (Ruger Blackhawk / everything else), and basically included prewar Colt's and 'cheap' Italian copies in the lowest group, then post war Colt's, as well as another American company that I can't recall the name of, something like US Arms, and other American made copies in the 2nd group, being able to handle 20,000cup loads, and lastly Ruger Blackhawks, Redhawks, the BFR into the group that can handle the highest pressure loads. I'm not really concerned with the highest group, as I doubt I'll ever load any that high, but rather the 14,000cup, and 20,000cup groups. With my Cimmaron Thunderer, it's a fairly new gun (made by Uberti within the last dozen years), and having a brand new cylinder & barrel, that are possibly American made, I'm wondering if it can handle the higher 20,000cup loads, and if not, what indications would I see that I'm loading it too hot?

My questions about the ROA were just curiosity, as I don't plan on loading it hot (well, I don't really plan on loading any of them too hot), but considering that it's a Ruger frame that's the same size as the Blackhawk, and the cylinder walls are easily as thick or thicker than the Blackhawk's, while I don't think it could handle the same loads as the BH, it should in theory be able to handle loads a little bit hotter than 'Cowboy' loads. I wonder how much of the warning about using 'Cowboy' loads is based on actual strength, and how much is based on lawyers. In the American market, product liability rules how companies market their products much more than it should, but in this law suit happy environment they have to have product liability insurance if they want to survive.

[geargnasher]

Mike, when in doubt, stick with midrange data for the SAA or "standard" pressures unless you have a truly "Ruger strength" gun. This is a pain because even max loads staying within the max SAA pressures tend to make dirty brass, since not really enough pressure to seal the cases in the often oversized chambers of most .45 Colt guns.

My best advice is to stick with midrange loads of Titegroup and 250-ish-grain boolits of the round nose, flat point variety, or load with a case full of black powder and dead-soft boolits. These powders both are accurate, safe, build case-sealing pressure quickly, and usually shoot to point of aim with 255-grain boolits at 750 fps. Might not set the world on fire, but easily as much energy as a typical .45 ACP round, so good for most knock-down steel targets or for self-defense if necessary. I load most of my .45 Colts to this level and would not feel undergunned in the least in a self-defense situation.

Eight (8.0) grains of Unique works very well too, but tends to be dirty both in the barrel, in the air at the range, and on the outside of the brass.

Gear

[220swiftfn]

I really wish I could find the article I had read, as it basically divided 45's (45LC) into 3 groups, not the usual 2 (Ruger Blackhawk / everything else), and basically included prewar Colt's and 'cheap' Italian copies in the lowest group, then post war Colt's, as well as another American company that I can't recall the name of, something like US Arms, and other American made copies in the 2nd group, being able to handle 20,000cup loads, and lastly Ruger Blackhawks, Redhawks, the BFR into the group that can handle the highest pressure loads. I'm not really concerned with the highest group, as I doubt I'll ever load any that high, but rather the 14,000cup, and 20,000cup groups. With my Cimmaron Thunderer, it's a fairly new gun (made by Uberti within the last dozen years), and having a brand new cylinder & barrel, that are possibly American made, I'm wondering if it can handle the higher 20,000cup loads, and if not, what indications would I see that I'm loading it too hot?

My questions about the ROA were just curiosity, as I don't plan on loading it hot (well, I don't really plan on loading any of them too hot), but considering that it's a Ruger frame that's the same size as the Blackhawk, and the cylinder walls are easily as thick or thicker than the Blackhawk's, while I don't think it could handle the same loads as the BH, it should in theory be able to handle loads a little bit hotter than 'Cowboy' loads. I wonder how much of the warning about using 'Cowboy' loads is based on actual strength, and how much is based on lawyers. In the American market, product liability rules how companies market their products much more than it should, but in this law suit happy environment they have to have product liability insurance if they want to survive.

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL%20246partial.pdf

Here ya go. The USFA's have a larger cylinder, so they can handle the 20,000 psi loads. The Cimarron Thunderer does not, so I'd keep that one lower, but to be honest, I can't think of anything that a 270 grain SWC at @ 900 fps can't handle anyways.....


Dan

[MikeS]

Dan, Thanks for the link. That is the article I was thinking of. What do you mean when you say the USFA's have a larger cylinder? Are you talking about the diameter of the entire cylinder? Just for grins I measured the cylinder diameters of my 3 guns, and the RBH was the largest, with a diameter of 1.730, and ROA conversion cylinder is 1.670, and the Thunderer is the smallest at 1.655. Another thing I noticed was that the RBH also had the largest gap from cylinder to barrel. I can't find my feeler gauge, so this was by eye, both of the other guns had a smaller amount of light showing, looking to be around the same amount. Is there a spec on how large the gap should be?

[220swiftfn]

Yep, the diameter on the USFA is .020 bigger than the Colt SAA and other clones (except for the new "Old Armory Original" that has the smaller cylinder.....)

From USFA's site....
"The Old Colt Single Action reproduced by USFA is now available for the first time in a true 1st Gen. small frame window and true scale cylinder are among some of the changes now available in its newest brand The Old Armory Original.™

The current run of all USFA revolvers (until the Old Armory Original™) sported a larger window to accommodate the larger cylinder for the potential heavy modern cartridges CAS shooters can put through their favorite SA's."

As to the strength of the Ruger Old Army, IIRC, they are built stronger than the Remmy 1858 (which can handle standard .45 Colt loads with the Kirst), so 14000 psi loads shouldn't be a problem. The sweet spot with cylinder gap seems to be right around .0025", with acceptable limits depending on manufacturer (I believe Colt's upper limit is .006 on the Detective Special, and Smith and Wesson's Chief's Special is .009)


Dan

[44man]

All good answers, treat them with care. The only one you can be safe with is the BH but now you MUST make sure to never mix up a load so they never get near the others.
Even in the BH you need to use care because the brass is so strong it can be over loaded to failure without pressure signs on the brass. I have seen over loads of 296 and a heavy (335 gr) boolit that would make me turn white and brass fell out when the gate was opened.
The .44 mag is the same, guys post loads that they shoot where Angels fear to be, they just don't know what they are pulling the trigger on. They are proud of the velocity and think because brass does not stick, it is safe. A tribute to Ruger for sure, their guns save the foolish. :veryconfu
I have seen loads on other sites for a Ruger that will blow up a Marlin. :confused:
Don't go there! Listen to reason on this site.

[Char-Gar]

I started shooting the 45 Colt round when all that was available were out of print Colt New Service and Colt SSA sixguns. It was many years later I got my first Ruger. As a result, I never got into the habit of shooting those dinosaur buster loads that seem so popular today.

Today I have a Colt New Service, A Ruger BH, a Ruger Flatop 45 and an early USFA SA, when they were made with Italian parts. In all of them I still shoot the old 260 grain Keith bullet over 8.5/Unique. It has done everything I have ever wanted a sixgun to do.

If I need some more horsepower, I go to the 44 Mag. Even then I use a moderate load of the 240 grain Keith over 10/Unique.

I am one of those practical sorts who don't enjoy blasting hot gas and lead all over the place and calling it fun. I have never found a use for dinoslayer loads. But, I live in Texas where there are no huge critters. The biggest danger are two footer varmints and a good old factory level 45 Colt level will lay them low in a heart beat.

[MikeS]

I am one of those practical sorts who don't enjoy blasting hot gas and lead all over the place and calling it fun. I have never found a use for dinoslayer loads.

I agree with that 100%. I was mainly asking out of curiosity, I prefer to keep my loads light. I'm also planning on keeping all my loads to a level that can be shot in any of my guns in 45LC, as with my luck, if I did load up some Ruger only loads for the BH, those would be the ones I grab to go shooting the Cimmaron! Just because something can be done, doesn't mean it has to be done!

[Char-Gar]

What is a light versus heavy 45 Colt load seems to change over time. The United States Army, The Texas Rangers and a whole assortment of other folks though a black powder 45 Colt load was just the ticket for settling the hash of Indians and assorted bad guys.

The effectiveness of a 260 grain lead bullet going 850 fps has not changed but our notions have.

[geargnasher]

What is a light versus heavy 45 Colt load seems to change over time. The United States Army, The Texas Rangers and a whole assortment of other folks though a black powder 45 Colt load was just the ticket for settling the hash of Indians and assorted bad guys.

The effectiveness of a 260 grain lead bullet going 850 fps has not changed but our notions have.

So true. The loading you mention delivers more energy than a full-house .45 ACP.

Gear

[243winxb]

If so, or if not, when trying a load, how can I tell if it's too hot a load for the gun? Seems no one really knows. My guess is the top strap would stretch, if you dont have to pound the brass out of the cylinders first. Have a look at this > http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=110489
Uberti >
USE PROPER AMMUNITION.




Only use factory-loaded, new ammunition manufactured to industry specifications: CIP (Europe and elsewhere), SAAMI (U.S.A.). Be certain that each round you use is in the proper caliber or gauge and type for the particular firearm. The caliber or gauge of the firearm is clearly marked on the barrels of shotguns and on the slide or barrel of pistols. The use of reloaded or remanufactured ammunition can increase the likelihood of excessive cartridge pressures, casehead ruptures or other defects in the ammunition, all of which can cause damage to your firearm and injury to yourself or others nearby.