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sig2009
09-04-2011, 07:32 PM
Hey guys. Maybe you can give me some help. I cast up a bunch of 40 S&W with Lyman mold #401564 150gn SWC. Sized to .401. They were lubed with BAC. Took them to the range today. Shot them out of 2 different CZ'S and was getting extreme leading. These were loaded with the Lyman starting load of 5.0 gns AA#2. I am using 100% range lead which I know is soft. I have used Two Alpha Bullets 140gn with a brinell hardness of 17 and also get leading but only half as bad. I do have a Sig P229 which I will try them out of next week. Any suggestions?

sig2009
09-05-2011, 09:40 AM
So no one has any idea why I am getting the leading of the barrrel?

cabezaverde
09-05-2011, 10:00 AM
Try a larger size, or slug your barrel.

sig2009
09-05-2011, 10:16 AM
Try a larger size, or slug your barrel.

Lyman does not make a .402 sizing die.

Chihuahua Floyd
09-05-2011, 10:19 AM
Leasing is usuallly the result of gas cutting, either from an undersized bullet, or pushing to fast.
The 5.0g load of #2 is below the starting load in my Accurate manual so to fast should not be a problem.
New guns, rough bores?
As suggested, slug the barrels.
CF

sig2009
09-05-2011, 10:26 AM
Leasing is usuallly the result of gas cutting, either from an undersized bullet, or pushing to fast.
The 5.0g load of #2 is below the starting load in my Accurate manual so to fast should not be a problem.
New guns, rough bores?
As suggested, slug the barrels.
CF

Slugging the barrel is useless if you can't get the correct sizing die and as I stated Lyman only makes a .400 and .401 sizer die and I am using the .401 die already.

Thanks for the suggestions. I will just melt down the 40's that I cast and shoot plated or jacketed in my 40 S&W's. I had no idea that cast 40's were so much trouble to make them work. All my other cast boolits work fine with no leading.

captaint
09-05-2011, 10:54 AM
sig2009 - You might try Lathesmith on this forum. I use his sizing dies for my Star. He may make dies for the Lyman also. Any size you need. enjoy Mike

462
09-05-2011, 11:02 AM
Slugging the barrel is useless if you can't get the correct sizing die and as I stated Lyman only makes a .400 and .401 sizer die and I am using the .401 die already.

Thanks for the suggestions. I will just melt down the 40's that I cast and shoot plated or jacketed in my 40 S&W's. I had no idea that cast 40's were so much trouble to make them work. All my other cast boolits work fine with no leading.

I think you need to approach this with a different outlook. Don't give up so soon. Cast Boolits has plenty of .40 S&W information available, but you'll have to make the time and effort to do the research. I don't own anything in that caliber, but I read the threads nonetheless (never know what might be learned).

With any caliber of cast boolit, there is no pat answer as to why it causes leading. However, proper boolit fit is always the first place to start, which means you need to slug the barrel. Till then, you are shooting in the dark (no pun intended).

If, after slugging the barrel, you need a non-mass produced sizing die, contact Buckshot.

sig2009
09-05-2011, 07:39 PM
I found the problem. I slugged the barrel and they were .399. My sizer die is .401. I have to order the .400 sizer die because the lead is smearing.

cabezaverde
09-05-2011, 08:04 PM
I don't think that is your problem. That sounds just about perfect.

oneokie
09-05-2011, 08:12 PM
Make a dummy round, pull the boolit out of it and measure it. Sounds like your brass is sizing the boolit to below .399".

Also, what die set are you using to load with?

462
09-05-2011, 08:18 PM
Your .401" boolit is not the cause.

Oneokie nailed your next step.

Tell us you are not using Lee's infamous handgun Carbide Factory Crimp Die.

sig2009
09-05-2011, 08:20 PM
Make a dummy round, pull the boolit out of it and measure it. Sounds like your brass is sizing the boolit to below .399".

Also, what die set are you using to load with?

Dillon Dies with the taper crimp die. I don't use the Lee FCD because I know it swages the lead down. Crimp is fine. I made a dummy round with a primer and shot it down the barrel and it measures .399 so that was not the problem. The problem is when you swage a lead bullet to .401 and send it down a barrel .399 the lead is smearing the barrel going out.

HeavyMetal
09-05-2011, 08:23 PM
I'm going to suggest few things to try:

1 leave the 401 diameter as is, if you have some loaded round with this lyman boolit pull one or two and mike them to make sure the case isn't sizing them to small, ( under .399) when they are seated.

2 bump your start load to 5.7 grains #2

3 add some clip on WW to your next batch of casting alloy and drop them in a bucket of water as they come from the mold. 60% clip on WW and 40% range lead should do it.

Now if all of the above are done / followed load and shoot. If leading persists change lube.

Tough to diagnois a leading problem but these things I mention are the usual suspects. Check them before doing anything else.

sig2009
09-05-2011, 08:33 PM
I'm going to suggest few things to try:

1 leave the 401 diameter as is, if you have some loaded round with this lyman boolit pull one or two and mike them to make sure the case isn't sizing them to small, ( under .399) when they are seated.

2 bump your start load to 5.7 grains #2

3 add some clip on WW to your next batch of casting alloy and drop them in a bucket of water as they come from the mold. 60% clip on WW and 40% range lead should do it.

Now if all of the above are done / followed load and shoot. If leading persists change lube.

Tough to diagnois a leading problem but these things I mention are the usual suspects. Check them before doing anything else.

I was thinking of bumping up the load to try that. I'll pull one of the bullets to check. I have no access to WW so I won't be able to do that.

357shooter
09-05-2011, 08:47 PM
Dillon Dies with the taper crimp die. I don't use the Lee FCD because I know it swages the lead down. Crimp is fine. I made a dummy round with a primer and shot it down the barrel and it measures .399 so that was not the problem. The problem is when you swage a lead bullet to .401 and send it down a barrel .399 the lead is smearing the barrel going out.

There was a good suggestion of pulling a bullet from the brass then measuring it. Different than shooting it down the barrel. The idea is to see if the brass is swaging the bullet down and making it to small before it ever gets to the barrel. If it started at .399 and ended at .399, it's still to small.

.401 most likely, isn't to big for .399.

Where in the barrel is the leading, near the chamber, near the muzzle, the whole length?

sig2009
09-05-2011, 10:43 PM
There was a good suggestion of pulling a bullet from the brass then measuring it. Different than shooting it down the barrel. The idea is to see if the brass is swaging the bullet down and making it to small before it ever gets to the barrel. If it started at .399 and ended at .399, it's still to small.

.401 most likely, isn't to big for .399.

Where in the barrel is the leading, near the chamber, near the muzzle, the whole length?

Leading the whole length.

geargnasher
09-05-2011, 10:58 PM
Sig2009, if you want to get to the bottom of this, please discard your incorrect preconceived notions about what's going on and listen to some of the excellent suggestions that have been given. We've beaten this to death many times in the past couple of years, and the causes of the issues you describe are very typical and usually narrowed down to a few, except the one fellow who had a .40 with absolutely zero barrel throat. The .40 and 9mm are unique beasts that require some additional and unique knowledge to become cast-friendly.

First, I've doped the .40 out up and down in three guns now, and I've learned a helluva lot about that pesky, PITA round. The first thing I learned is that, like the 9mm, the brass is HARD, made for MAGNUM PRESSURES, and will swage the holy krap out of all but the very hardest boolits you can get when you seat them in there WITHOUT PROPERLY EXPANDING THE BRASS. You said the harder, 17 bhn commercial boolits didn't lead as badly, right? Know why? I'll tell you what I think based on what you've said so far, and I believe your thinking is wrong. They didn't lead as badly because they fit the barrel better, more tightly, than the ones you cast. Why? Because they resisted case swage better than the ones you cast. I DON'T KNOW OF ANY STANDARD RELOADING DIES THAT CORRECTLY EXPAND BRASS FOR THE .40 OR 9MM CAST BOOLITS. This is usually the whole problem, and often a custom expander spud is needed to stretch the hard, tough brass out the entire seated depth of the boolit (or a little beyond) to get the .001-2" max case tension that is needed to prevent squeezing the boolit undersized. As has been explained, the cause of leading is UNDERSIZED BOOLITS allowing gas leakage as they travel down the bore, and this gas leakage erodes the sides of the boolit like a water jet cutting steel, and the resulting lead "dust" gets blown ahead of the boolit and ironed on as the boolit passes over it in the bore. If your boolits fit tighly (.001-2" larger than groove dimension for an interference fit), the barrel surface is in good condition, and the boolit gets a fair start into the rifling, and your lube is adequate for the pressure, then you won't get any leading in the barrel.

So here's what you do: Thoroughly clean and remove ALL traces of copper fouling from the barrel. Cast a handfull of pure lead boolits in your mould. Measure them when cool, making sure they are at least .401" in diameter. Lighly oil your CLEAN barrel and the boolit, pound it through from the muzzle end with a brass rod and a hammer. Measure the gross dimension of the slug with a 0-1" micrometer or GOOD, calibrated caliper. Measure one of your as-cast boolits and make sure it's at least .001" larger than the barrel slug at its smallest point, then size and expand/bellmouth an unprimed case, and seat/crimp the boolit like normal. Pull the boolit with an inertial puller and measure it side-by-side with the barrel slug. If the barrel slug is smaller by at least .001", you're good to go with the reloading dies and alloy composition/temper you're using. If not, you will need to investigate your expander die to see if the expander/bellmouth spud is large enough. I'll bet you $100 it isn't the same size as your largest groove dimension nor as long as the boolit seating depth you use, and it needs to be or you will get case swage with anything softer than pure linotype.

Typical .40 measurements for me are groove at .399-4005", cast boolit diameter .401-2" for best results. Most copper jacketed bullets in .40 cal are .397", and the reloading dies are meant to handle these, NOT cast boolits that are five thousandths larger on average to work with typical groove dimensions without leading the bejeezus out of the bore. You can get away with standard dies with the .45 ACP and .38 Special because the lower pressures allow much softer brass to be used which can be stretched out easily by seating a typical 11-14 bhn cast boolit with no significant squeezing of the boolits.

So FIT FIT FIT is the key to success. Hardness doesn't matter that much, except to prevent being made to not fit by the insufficiently expanded cartridge case. Fit when loaded, fit when first launched into the throat, fit when taking the rifling, and fit the whole way down the barrel and out the muzzle without any gas leaks before muzzle exit. If it doesn't fit with 20Kpsi behind it, it will leak, and if it leaks it will gas-cut, and if it gas-cuts it will lead the barrel.

One more thing, the .40 likes Blue Dot, Longshot, and HS6 with hard boolits (20+ bhn) and hot loads, Unique or Universal (or similar) with medium loads and 11-14 bhn boolits, and any of the quick shotgun powders in very mild doses with soft boolits and loading levels just enough to work the slide. .001" case tension is good for any of them, you can have more with the harder boolits and be ok to a point, somewhere around .002" interference fit when seated in the case.

Hope this sheds some light on your problem,

Gear

harley45
09-05-2011, 11:52 PM
Not to hijack the thread but does the advice given here also apply to 10mm?

geargnasher
09-05-2011, 11:59 PM
Harley, I don't load for the 10mm and have no experience with dies designed for it, but the advice is pretty much universal for any caliber: Measure a sized boolit, load/crimp/pull it, and measure it again. If it's significantly smaller after loading, crimping, and pulling, then it might have a problem with leading when fired, especially if the pulled boolit isn't still at least .001" larger than the groove diameter of the gun's barrel.

Gear

sig2009
09-06-2011, 12:07 PM
Gear,
Thanks for the suggestions. This is what I found so far. I fulled one of the loads that I was getting leading with. Not only did I have too much crimp but they miced at .398. Seeing the barrel was slugged at .399 that was a problem.

Second. I expanded the case mouth a little more to cut down on the swaging of the bullet going into the case. After creating another dummy round, belling, seating and then crimping I pulled that round and miced it. It miced at .400. I used Winchester cases. Miced case wall was .011. Bullet sized to .401=crimp .423.

I hope I am on the right track here. What do you think?

geargnasher
09-06-2011, 12:51 PM
I'd say that should be fine, so clean the lead and copper fouling out of your barrel if you haven't done so already, load some up and go see what Mr. Pistol says about it, since his opinion is really the only one that matters here :Fire:

Gear

Gswain
09-06-2011, 12:58 PM
Gear always has had advice that worked out well for me, so thats a great starting point. I was having leading in my RIA 1911 for a while, and was trying to figure out why. Was eventually lead to the idea that the bore may not be as smooth as it needed to be. Got some lapping compound, went at it. No leading. I shoot .40 through my sig P226, with no leading. I water quench my boolits, and use recluse tumble lube twice. Size to .401, my bore slugs at .400. The AA#2 may be part of your problem, as it is a faster powder. FWIW, I have found 5.6 GR of AA#5 with a Lee 175TL boolit works great, now its the only thing I shoot out of it. Just finished up 700 or so of em. Good luck with it!

HeavyMetal
09-06-2011, 09:20 PM
And there ya go!

Now that you've found the expander plug problem, case sizing bollits when seated, you should be able to get the leading gone with the load your using ( I still think you need to bump the load a touch).

AS Gear said really clean that barrel before you try another cast boolit load.

Keep us in the loop on how it goes!

sig2009
09-07-2011, 10:39 AM
And there ya go!

Now that you've found the expander plug problem, case sizing bollits when seated, you should be able to get the leading gone with the load your using ( I still think you need to bump the load a touch).

AS Gear said really clean that barrel before you try another cast boolit load.

Keep us in the loop on how it goes!

I am going to bump up the load. As for the barrel it has a mirror finish now! I do plan to load some at 5.0 and some at 5.5gns and see what happends.

sig2009
09-07-2011, 10:49 AM
Gear always has had advice that worked out well for me, so thats a great starting point. I was having leading in my RIA 1911 for a while, and was trying to figure out why. Was eventually lead to the idea that the bore may not be as smooth as it needed to be. Got some lapping compound, went at it. No leading. I shoot .40 through my sig P226, with no leading. I water quench my boolits, and use recluse tumble lube twice. Size to .401, my bore slugs at .400. The AA#2 may be part of your problem, as it is a faster powder. FWIW, I have found 5.6 GR of AA#5 with a Lee 175TL boolit works great, now its the only thing I shoot out of it. Just finished up 700 or so of em. Good luck with it!

AA#2 may or may not be part of the problem but this is a Lyman published accuracy load and they have been in the business for quite some time.

462
09-07-2011, 11:25 AM
Keep in mind that Lyman accuracy loads are theoritical, not actual.

geargnasher
09-07-2011, 12:44 PM
AA#2 may or may not be part of the problem but this is a Lyman published accuracy load and they have been in the business for quite some time.

Um, Yeah. Not an "accuracy" load anyway, they don't test accuracy anymore, only pressure. The "accuracy" loads merely show the lowest SD of the peak average chamber pressure for the components tested, in the pressure barrel/universal receiver. In the real world, as anyone here with a chronograph can tell you, the most accurate load for a gun has very little to do with good pressure or velocity numbers, and will differ greatly from gun to gun. Extreme long-range accuracy competitors will chase small SD numbers with pressure and velocity, but that isn't an end unto itself, only the group size and consistency is.

So, for your alloy, whatever it is, you might be served better by AA#5 if you prefer Accurate, or refer to my post above about MATCHING THE POWDER BURN RATE AND PRESSURE (CHARGE WEIGHT) TO THE ALLOY. It matters, especially with this caliber, that's why I took the time to explain it earlier. Finding the accuracy load that meets your satisfaction for barrel cleanliness and the gun's requirements for feeding is entirely up to you, and part of the fun!

Also, don't get caught up in the published COAL numbers, either. Every chamber and throat is different, just be careful of going UNDER the minimum number listed, this can drastically increase chamber pressure if you seat too deeply, especially with fast powders like AA#2. I tend to use the barrel as a gauge, seat until the case head is flush with the barrel hood and seat .010" or so deeper to allow for a bit of fouling. You may prefer a different way, I just thought I'd share what works for me in all my autos.

Gear

sig2009
09-07-2011, 07:49 PM
Thanks Gear. Learning more and more every day. I do happen to have some AA#5and I'll give that a try. Also about OAL. I found that out when they said to load that specific bullet to 1.130 when in fact I had loaded it to 1.090 as this perticular LSWC should be.

garym1a2
09-08-2011, 12:34 PM
Good information on this thread. A few days ago I brought a set of dies, molds and sizer to try for my glock22 in 40cal.

geargnasher
09-08-2011, 01:32 PM
There have been three or four other excellent and lengthy threads on the subject within the last year or so, a brief search will yield a ton of good info.

Gear

mpmarty
09-08-2011, 06:54 PM
Not to hijack the thread but does the advice given here also apply to 10mm?

Yes I've never had a leading problem with any of my five 10mm pistols but do adhere to what's been said here. Good advice for anyone trying to run with cast boolits.

My 45/70 (aka long distance axe) works like magic with cast boolits too.

fredj338
09-09-2011, 05:55 PM
AA#2 may or may not be part of the problem but this is a Lyman published accuracy load and they have been in the business for quite some time.

Which means nothing. Every platform is an animal unto itself. IME, there is no such thing as most accurate across all guns. Just doesn't work that way.

I am going to bump up the load. As for the barrel it has a mirror finish now! I do plan to load some at 5.0 and some at 5.5gns and see what happends.
That is a HUGE jump up for such a fast powder. If you can't do it in 0.1-0.2gr increments, proceed w/ caution. The faster powders build pressure in a non linear fashion, meaning they go fine until you hit the upper pressure levels, then many will push the pressure curve vertical.

sig2009
09-09-2011, 08:07 PM
Which means nothing. Every platform is an animal unto itself. IME, there is no such thing as most accurate across all guns. Just doesn't work that way.

That is a HUGE jump up for such a fast powder. If you can't do it in 0.1-0.2gr increments, proceed w/ caution. The faster powders build pressure in a non linear fashion, meaning they go fine until you hit the upper pressure levels, then many will push the pressure curve vertical.

Fred,
How is that a huge jump when the Accurate Arms starting load is 5.7 gn?

Mavrick
09-09-2011, 09:13 PM
A tapered seating die is meant to "crimp" a j-word bullet, but when you are using a lead boolit, it's larger, not to mention softer. You should back the die out a bit so it doesn't squeeze the case/boolit quite so much.
When I'm loading my .40, or my 10mm, or any other straight auto case for that matter, I back the die out and insert the seating-spud deeper so that I don't crimp the case, but seat the boolit to it's proper depth. Then I back the spud completely, and screw the die in until I'm satisfied the bell has been taken from the case.
This is more or less the same as the old four-die loading technique. I'ne had no propblems since I started doing it this way.
Have fun,
Gene

geargnasher
09-09-2011, 11:21 PM
Fred,
How is that a huge jump when the Accurate Arms starting load is 5.7 gn?

FredJ's point about taking it easy with charge increments of fast powders is still valid, and you ARE seating deeper than the load for which that data was tested if I read that right. .5 grain at 5.0 grains is a 10% increase. That's pretty drastic, regardless of the "level" of the load.

Gear

NuJudge
09-10-2011, 08:07 AM
Fit is important, but I find hardness to be helpful. Some people use soft bullets and fast powders, hoping that the powder gas pressure will cause the bullet to bump up to the groove diameter, if it is larger than the bullet.

I am a believer in having a big and hard bullet to start with, especially in high pressure cartridges like the .40 S&W.

cbr
09-10-2011, 11:12 AM
I haven't been around here much lately, but Geargnashers post on here was one of the most informative posts I think I have ever read. I printed it to keep with my loading data!

sig2009
09-11-2011, 02:21 PM
I'd say that should be fine, so clean the lead and copper fouling out of your barrel if you haven't done so already, load some up and go see what Mr. Pistol says about it, since his opinion is really the only one that matters here :Fire:

Gear

Well Gear,
I loaded some up and took to the range. Unfortunitely the problem still exists. After shooting about 20 from 2 different guns I still have the leading although about 50% less than before and it was much easier to clean out than previously. Where do I go from here? Lighter load,stiffer load,change powders. I checked the primers and there was no excessive pressure signs. I really would like to get this right. Thanks.

geargnasher
09-12-2011, 12:48 AM
Loaded up some of what?

If you have leading, you have a poor dynamic fit and/or lube failure. Leading is caused either by gas leakage around the boolit (which cuts channels in the surface and deposits the dust ahead of the boolit in the bore where it is physically ironed-on the barrel's surface by the subsequent passage of the boolit), or by abrasion from copper fouling, bad bore surface, or from poor throat fit where the lube gets blown off of the boolit and out the bore before it even gets engraved. Another lube failure occurs with tumble lubes, where the pressures can exceed the lube's ability to do its job.

By "dynamic fit" I mean the fit of the boolit from the static fit in the case to muzzle exit, and it must fit and seal from the time the primer ignites all the way out. The boolit must fit the throat well enough to get a good, straight start up the pipe, and it must engrave without skidding the rifling and causing a trailing-edge leak (this is where slow powder and hard boolits can help), and it must travel the whole length of the barrel without losing the seal.

So, I'd say you still have boolits that are too small initially, are seated too deeply, are too soft for the powder speed, a lube that is failing, or some dimensional quirk with the barrel like no throat transition which can shave the boolit and leave it undersized from the chamber forward on its trip. Try a larger boolit and try using the chamber as a length gauge, making sure the boolit is seated out as far as it can and still function in the gun.

Gear

sig2009
09-12-2011, 10:17 AM
Gear,
Thanks for the suggestions. As I said before the load is Lyman mold #401564 150gn SWC. Sized to .401. They were lubed with Whites Lube BAC. These were loaded with the Lyman starting load of 5.0 gns AA#2. Oal 1.090. Barrel was slugged and is .399. Bullets are sized to .401. Pulling a loaded round they are still sized to .401.

At this point I have pretty much given up on this round to reload with my cast 40 S&W. My last try will be to call Lyman and Accurate Arms and see what they have to say. My .38 spec and 45 ACP cast reloads have no leading so that leaves me to believe the 40's are not an ideal round to cast and reload.

geargnasher
09-12-2011, 10:29 AM
Before you give up, consider that your AA#2 is probably too fast for the alloy you're using. Get some Unique, Universal, or AA#5 and go with some starting loads for those.

If you'll go back and read some of the first posts I made on this thread, and pay attention to the very specific qualities of the .40 that I pointed out are different from other, "easier" lead boolit cartridges like the .38 and .45 ACP, you will see the issues.

To make the .40 shoot, you have to have tools that make the brass work right with cast (you seem to be ok here), you have to have a boolit design that works for the gun (I think you are ok here, too), and you have to balance the load. Balancing peak pressure, pressure curve, alloy hardness/toughness/composition, lube, and dynamic fit are the keys to getting ANY cast boolit load to work, but it's more critical in the .40. Most folks get derailed at the first part, never getting a die set that works with cast boolit dimensions. I think you're getting derailed at the last part, not having the right burn rate powder/correct charge weight for your particular alloy.

Try a slower powder, and work the load up from starting levels to near max, I think you'll find that somewhere in the middle you'll have an accurate, dependable, clean, and lead-free load.

Gear

jameslovesjammie
09-12-2011, 11:08 AM
I shoot nothing but cast in my CZ75B. At first I was getting severe leading with cast. And I mean SEVERE. If you shot 100 rounds and looked down the barrel, it looked like you had tinsel in the grooves. I had shot tens of thousands of rounds of cast through my revolvers and never had leading. Ever. Not with store bought cast or my own home cast.

After reading on this forum, I found out that the factory crimp die could swage down the boolit. I backed the die off so it only kissed the case. I still had leading, but only about half as much.

I had slugged my bore previously, and it measured .400 according to my cheap, Chinese calipers. I was running my boolits through a Star sizer with a .401 diameter sizing die. There was no reason that I should be getting leading due to fit. I was using a premium lube (Lars Carnuba Red). There was no way I should be getting leading.

So I dealt with it for about a year. Then one day I was too lazy to size some Lyman 401638. I tumble lubed them in Johnson's Paste Wax and Lee Liquid Alox. I went to the farm and shot around 200 rounds. When I got home to do my routine cleaning, I noticed that there was no lead in the barrel. None.

I knew from previously measuring this boolit, it dropped from the mould grossly oversized and out of round at .402x.405". Then it occurred to me. I had never measured a slug that came out of the sizer. I had just always assumed that the boolits were dropping from the die at .401". I got out my calipers, and low and behold... .399".

I polished the die out to .4005" and the leading is gone. I use a harder alloy than you, but there is a phrase on this board that I have found more true than anything else...FIT IS KING. I even us a fast powder (Bullseye) and don't get leading. If the boolit fits, alot of problems can go away.

David2011
09-12-2011, 12:11 PM
Gear,
Thanks for the suggestions. This is what I found so far. I fulled one of the loads that I was getting leading with. Not only did I have too much crimp but they miced at .398. Seeing the barrel was slugged at .399 that was a problem.

Second. I expanded the case mouth a little more to cut down on the swaging of the bullet going into the case. After creating another dummy round, belling, seating and then crimping I pulled that round and miced it. It miced at .400. I used Winchester cases. Miced case wall was .011. Bullet sized to .401=crimp .423.

I hope I am on the right track here. What do you think?

Sig2009,

Good luck! This can be a challenge. I shoot .40 S&W cast boolits in IPSC which amounts to more .40 than all the rest of my cast boolits combined. The IPSC pistol has probably had 80,000 of my cast boolits run through it. Gear gave you excellent advice.

I have a lingering concern about your crimp. Since the .40 S&W headspaces on the mouth of the cartridge any reduction in the diameter of the case at the mouth could be multiplying your problems. You shouldn't really "crimp" .40- only straighten the case back out to the shape it had after sizing. If it's roll crimped at all, the rolled portion of the mouth can be entering the chamber too far and when the round is fired the mouth may not be able to open up thus swaging the boolit further as the mouth is trapped in the shoulder where it should be headspacing. The mouth of the cartridge should measure .423" +0/-.001 max deviation. That dimension should be at the sharp square shoulder of the mouth. Be sure you're not measuring any tiny burr on the mouth and use the knife edge of calipers or break the edge of some test cases so you're getting a good measurement if using a micrometer.

You might also measure the expander. When you say you expanded the cases more I assume you mean you made the bell bigger. That really doesn't expand the rest of the case any larger. You only need to bell enough to let the boolit seat without shaving lead. More than that will shorten the life of the brass. The expander itself determines how much you expand. If it's undersized you will not eliminate the leading problem with soft boolits. As was mentioned earlier, the case can be reducing the diameter of your boolits and that would be directly tied to the diameter of the expander. After expanding the case should be at least .001 smaller than the boolit but not more than .002" smaller. Any more difference with that and your range lead will be swaged down.

I've used 10 pounds of Titegroup in my .40 and a couple of pounds of other powders looking for less smoke (futile chase) so I have no opinion on your AA#5. I shoot some pwder puff loads with 155 grain boolits and light charges for steel plate matches and they don't lead any more than my IPSC Major loads so I would speculate that your light charges are not the problem. All of my boolits are made of wheelweight+ a little monotype so are harder than range lead unless you got some really good range lead. One of our sponsors, Rotometals, sells Super Hard alloy which is 30% anitimony and is an easy and affordable way to harden range lead. It's difficult to mix straight antimony into your melt but the Super Hard will alloy easily.

The most likely reason for leading by far is undersized boolits. Ya just gotta figure out where they're becoming undersized. Soft alloys should still be good to 950 or 1000 fps so that shouldn't be a big issue for you.

I hope this is making sense and hope it eliminates more variables.

David

sig2009
09-12-2011, 03:21 PM
I shoot nothing but cast in my CZ75B. At first I was getting severe leading with cast. And I mean SEVERE. If you shot 100 rounds and looked down the barrel, it looked like you had tinsel in the grooves. I had shot tens of thousands of rounds of cast through my revolvers and never had leading. Ever. Not with store bought cast or my own home cast.

After reading on this forum, I found out that the factory crimp die could swage down the boolit. I backed the die off so it only kissed the case. I still had leading, but only about half as much.

I had slugged my bore previously, and it measured .400 according to my cheap, Chinese calipers. I was running my boolits through a Star sizer with a .401 diameter sizing die. There was no reason that I should be getting leading due to fit. I was using a premium lube (Lars Carnuba Red). There was no way I should be getting leading.

So I dealt with it for about a year. Then one day I was too lazy to size some Lyman 401638. I tumble lubed them in Johnson's Paste Wax and Lee Liquid Alox. I went to the farm and shot around 200 rounds. When I got home to do my routine cleaning, I noticed that there was no lead in the barrel. None.

I knew from previously measuring this boolit, it dropped from the mould grossly oversized and out of round at .402x.405". Then it occurred to me. I had never measured a slug that came out of the sizer. I had just always assumed that the boolits were dropping from the die at .401". I got out my calipers, and low and behold... .399".

I polished the die out to .4005" and the leading is gone. I use a harder alloy than you, but there is a phrase on this board that I have found more true than anything else...FIT IS KING. I even us a fast powder (Bullseye) and don't get leading. If the boolit fits, alot of problems can go away.

I don't use the factory crimp die because I know it causes the bullet to be resized. If you are talking about the Lee FCD. Been there. I do not use the FCD for anything anymore. I stick with the taper crimp die. Also pulled rounds mic out to .401. Slugged my bore and it is .399 in 3 different guns.

sig2009
09-12-2011, 03:26 PM
Sig2009,

Good luck! This can be a challenge. I shoot .40 S&W cast boolits in IPSC which amounts to more .40 than all the rest of my cast boolits combined. The IPSC pistol has probably had 80,000 of my cast boolits run through it. Gear gave you excellent advice.

I have a lingering concern about your crimp. Since the .40 S&W headspaces on the mouth of the cartridge any reduction in the diameter of the case at the mouth could be multiplying your problems. You shouldn't really "crimp" .40- only straighten the case back out to the shape it had after sizing. If it's roll crimped at all, the rolled portion of the mouth can be entering the chamber too far and when the round is fired the mouth may not be able to open up thus swaging the boolit further as the mouth is trapped in the shoulder where it should be headspacing. The mouth of the cartridge should measure .423" +0/-.001 max deviation. That dimension should be at the sharp square shoulder of the mouth. Be sure you're not measuring any tiny burr on the mouth and use the knife edge of calipers or break the edge of some test cases so you're getting a good measurement if using a micrometer.

You might also measure the expander. When you say you expanded the cases more I assume you mean you made the bell bigger. That really doesn't expand the rest of the case any larger. You only need to bell enough to let the boolit seat without shaving lead. More than that will shorten the life of the brass. The expander itself determines how much you expand. If it's undersized you will not eliminate the leading problem with soft boolits. As was mentioned earlier, the case can be reducing the diameter of your boolits and that would be directly tied to the diameter of the expander. After expanding the case should be at least .001 smaller than the boolit but not more than .002" smaller. Any more difference with that and your range lead will be swaged down.

I've used 10 pounds of Titegroup in my .40 and a couple of pounds of other powders looking for less smoke (futile chase) so I have no opinion on your AA#5. I shoot some pwder puff loads with 155 grain boolits and light charges for steel plate matches and they don't lead any more than my IPSC Major loads so I would speculate that your light charges are not the problem. All of my boolits are made of wheelweight+ a little monotype so are harder than range lead unless you got some really good range lead. One of our sponsors, Rotometals, sells Super Hard alloy which is 30% anitimony and is an easy and affordable way to harden range lead. It's difficult to mix straight antimony into your melt but the Super Hard will alloy easily.

The most likely reason for leading by far is undersized boolits. Ya just gotta figure out where they're becoming undersized. Soft alloys should still be good to 950 or 1000 fps so that shouldn't be a big issue for you.

I hope this is making sense and hope it eliminates more variables.

David

Mouth of the loaded round is .423. I only crimp to get rid if the bell and there are no marks on the pulled lead rounds. Undersized bullets are not my problem.

geargnasher
09-12-2011, 04:48 PM
"Undersized bullets are not my problem. "

I would tend to agree if all of your slug and pulled boolit measurements are right.

I still think you have a launch issue (imbalance of powder burn rate/charge/alloy), or possibly a gun barrel that has no throat. At this point you might want to make a chamber/throat cast and see what you have, it might be necessary to have the throat reamed out some.

Gear

Gswain
09-13-2011, 09:56 AM
Slower powder?

sig2009
09-13-2011, 10:00 AM
Slower powder?

Ya. That's the next expeiment!

geargnasher
09-13-2011, 10:06 AM
[snip]......One more thing, the .40 likes Blue Dot, Longshot, and HS6 with hard boolits (20+ bhn) and hot loads, Unique or Universal (or similar) with medium loads and 11-14 bhn boolits, and any of the quick shotgun powders in very mild doses with soft boolits and loading levels just enough to work the slide. .001" case tension is good for any of them, you can have more with the harder boolits and be ok to a point, somewhere around .002" interference fit when seated in the case.

Hope this sheds some light on your problem,

Gear

....Rather than type it again. I've had good success in all three divisions of performance and alloy in a couple of different .40s. The key is to BALANCE THE ALLOY TO THE PEAK PRESSURE, PRESSURE CURVE, AND VELOCITY. That can mean different things in different guns, but generally higher peak pressures will need a tougher alloy, and steep pressure curves will too, but light charges of fast powder might do better with softer boolits than large charges of fast powder.

How hard are your boolits now that they've aged some?

Gear

sig2009
09-15-2011, 04:55 PM
....Rather than type it again. I've had good success in all three divisions of performance and alloy in a couple of different .40s. The key is to BALANCE THE ALLOY TO THE PEAK PRESSURE, PRESSURE CURVE, AND VELOCITY. That can mean different things in different guns, but generally higher peak pressures will need a tougher alloy, and steep pressure curves will too, but light charges of fast powder might do better with softer boolits than large charges of fast powder.

How hard are your boolits now that they've aged some?

Gear

I have no idea how hard the boolits are now. I did load up some today and dropped the charge of AA#2 to 4.5 from 5.0gns. I also loaded up some with 4.0gns Bullseye but will have to wait till the weekend to try them out.

ph4570
09-15-2011, 05:12 PM
AA#2 may be a bit fast and I believe Bullseye is taking you in the wrong direction. Try Blue Dot powder. Blue Dot vs. Unique was the final solution to my Sig 9mm leading and works well for my 10mm S&W.

In any case don't give up. Gear and the other experts will get you there and it will be a joyful event when you do solve it.

geargnasher
09-15-2011, 05:31 PM
I agree that AA#2 and Bullesye are both probably way too fast in general for the .40, but I've made Titegroup work pretty well for plinking-level (just barely enough to cycle the slide) loads and fairly soft boolits. When the charge goes up much past starting levels, things can go to heck quickly with soft boolits and this cartridge.

The fact that these boolits aren't swaging down in the cases and no special, ovesized and over-length expander spud is necessary to achieve that tells me they are probably pretty hard and that might indicate a much slower powder, like HS6, Longshot, or Blue Dot, but these powders need some pressure to burn cleanly and keep the chamber from fouling to the point that battery problems creep up after a box or two, so I reserve them for "full house" loads or nearly so.

Normally, I would say a hardness tester is really not necessary for most pistol boolits unless going for extreme long-range accuracy, but in the case of the 9mm and .40, it can sure come in handy if you're having problems with leading. Some experimentation with different powder charges and burn rates will turn something up, though.

Gear

Beau Cassidy
09-15-2011, 09:31 PM
Playing with AA5 and fast burning powders in the .40 is like playing with dynamite. Been there. Done that. Got the scars to prove it. Nothing slower than WST, here.

geargnasher
09-15-2011, 10:16 PM
One danger that is exacerbated by fast powders in this cartrige is loss of case volume from boolits working their way back into the cases in the magazine under recoil. Even light charges still have a sharp "crack" which can hammer soft boolits deeper, and fast powders react very poorly to being restricted sometimes. I blew up a 1911 .45 ACP by shooting lead that was too soft and powder that was too fast: The fourth shot was a Kaboom and the last two in what was left of the magazine were almost seated against the powder, and had been swaged to about .445 at the base from the case wall taper and had some nose damage from encountering the front of the magazine. These were midrange loads of Clays.

Titegroup gets really spooky at anything above four grains with a Lee 175 TC seated to COAL of 1.118".

Gear

sig2009
09-18-2011, 01:44 PM
Gear,
Great news to report. I loaded up 4.0 gns Bullseye after doing some reasearch along with a reduced load of AA#2 4.5gns.

Results were as follows. No leading with the Bullseye 4.0gn loads shot out of a CZ 40B. Very slight leading with the AA#2 4.5gns shot out of a Sig P229. The only leading from that load was just around the barrel where the bullet launches and that was very slight.

Both guns cycled correctly with no issues. I am one happy fella!!![smilie=w:

Thanks to everyone for all the help. Now it's time to move on to the 9mm.

jameslovesjammie
09-18-2011, 03:11 PM
I'm using 4.9 grains of Bullseye with a 150 grain TC and experience no leading in a 75B .40 and a .40 Compact.

Glad you got the problem solved! This whole thread I was hoping you wouldn't give up.

JRR
09-18-2011, 04:31 PM
I don't understand the persistence to going with ultra fast burn powders like AA2 and Bullseye unless you are after the cheapest (powder consumption) or the lightest pussycat loads possible.

I have been loading the .40 almost since it was invented. The most successful loads have always been with medium burn - to med. slow powders. AA5, AA7, unique, herco (my favorite), blue dot, even wc820 (fast batch), AA9 and even 2400. All with 175-185 gr. lead projectiles.

The recoil impulse has been smoother (less abrupt), less, if no leading and excellent accuracy.

The possibility of a disastrous double charge of powder is eliminated (using unique or herco) with the resulting kaboom!

I have loaded for two different Glocks, an H&K and currently a CZ75B sa. The only fouling I get in the CZ is some smears on the ramp from the boolit noses.

Another thing... With the .40, always load as long as possible. Make some dummy loads that will just barely fit the magazine. Take out the barrel and drop test them in the chamber. If they make the "good" clink sound, then test them from mag to chamber for function. I load my .40's to 1.140" in the CZ. This is much longer than you are doing with less abrupt pressure and negative effects.

My CZ, in .40 cal., with wonderful trigger job, is as match grade as any 1911 I have used. All with cast boolits!

Use the AA2 and Bullseye for 38 sp wadcutter loads.

My mold of choice is the RCBS 180 flat point, using just about any lead mix I have. I use the RCBS "cowboy" 38/40 inside sizer at .399" for my .401" projectiles.

Jeff, the opinionated know-it-all

geargnasher
09-18-2011, 04:51 PM
Jeff-- here's a big +1 to every single thing you said coming from another opinionated know-it-all!

I don't know what the obsession with fast powders in magnum automatics is either, it's like loading BE in the .44 Magnum: It can be made to work, but why?

Gear

9.3X62AL
09-18-2011, 05:08 PM
OK--glad to see that some success is happening for you.

Taper crimp dies are FROM THE DEVIL--especially if they apply the crimp as the boolit is being seated. Your .423" finished diameter may be a "false positive"--brass has A LOT more spring-back than does lead-based bullet metal, which is (for practical purposes) a "dead metal" in terms of spring-back, comparatively speaking. In essence, taper crimping can compress the bullet, while brass spring-back can hide said radial compression.

If taper-crimping is applied to a lead boolit, it MUST be done as a seperate die step--with ONLY enough compression to straighten the case mouth flare--and NO MORE.

Mic your die set's expander spud. If it is any smaller than .399", get a larger one. There are toolmakers here that can make expander spuds, sizing dies, top punches, boolit moulds, and just about anything else you need. The "40 AP" Lyman Multi-Charge Die spud in my set mics about .3995", and it has done fine work in my Beretta--CZ--and Glock pistols. I use a relatively fast powder (WW-231) at 4.7 grains with the Lee 175 TC @ .401" confirmed sizing to duplicate the W-W Ranger SXT 180 service load in my pistols, and have zero leading after 200+ rounds fired.

Measure EVERYTHING, and confirm those dimensions. "Measure twice, cut once" as the carpenters say. TRUST NOTHING, unless Buckshot makes it. :) Tooling for cast boolits has to be re-thought quite a bit, since most of it "assumes" the use of jacketed bullets--ESPECIALLY with autopistol calibers.

sig2009
09-18-2011, 06:52 PM
OK--glad to see that some success is happening for you.

Taper crimp dies are FROM THE DEVIL--especially if they apply the crimp as the boolit is being seated. Your .423" finished diameter may be a "false positive"--brass has A LOT more spring-back than does lead-based bullet metal, which is (for practical purposes) a "dead metal" in terms of spring-back, comparatively speaking. In essence, taper crimping can compress the bullet, while brass spring-back can hide said radial compression.

If taper-crimping is applied to a lead boolit, it MUST be done as a seperate die step--with ONLY enough compression to straighten the case mouth flare--and NO MORE.

Mic your die set's expander spud. If it is any smaller than .399", get a larger one. There are toolmakers here that can make expander spuds, sizing dies, top punches, boolit moulds, and just about anything else you need. The "40 AP" Lyman Multi-Charge Die spud in my set mics about .3995", and it has done fine work in my Beretta--CZ--and Glock pistols. I use a relatively fast powder (WW-231) at 4.7 grains with the Lee 175 TC @ .401" confirmed sizing to duplicate the W-W Ranger SXT 180 service load in my pistols, and have zero leading after 200+ rounds fired.

Measure EVERYTHING, and confirm those dimensions. "Measure twice, cut once" as the carpenters say. TRUST NOTHING, unless Buckshot makes it. :) Tooling for cast boolits has to be re-thought quite a bit, since most of it "assumes" the use of jacketed bullets--ESPECIALLY with autopistol calibers.

Thanks for the suggestions. I already seat and taper crimp in 2 separate stations with just enough to straighten the casemouth.

sig2009
09-18-2011, 06:54 PM
I don't understand the persistence to going with ultra fast burn powders like AA2 and Bullseye unless you are after the cheapest (powder consumption) or the lightest pussycat loads possible.

No real need to waste powder if you don't have to. These are target loads and not self defense loads.