Pressure Problems with 311291 & 5744

[Fugowii]

I've just started loading this boolit for my Remington 30-06 and I am having some issues
with it. I am using 30 to 35 grains of 5744 and I am flattening primers and they are
backing out of the primer hole. The brass is a mix of LC and RP. I'm sizing with a
Dillon die set (three die) and using an 'M' die in the first location of the 550B where
I prime. I wanted to take out the 'M' die expansion at the crimping station but I may
have overdone it and crimped too tightly.

The last bunch I loaded I stayed with 31.5gr of 5744 and just took out the bell/crimp
of the 'M' die and not much more. I had much less of a problem but, there were a
few flattened primers and a couple that moved ever so slightly backwards. Nothing
like the previous loading.

I notice that 5744 seems to be one of the higher pressure powders. The question I
have is about 5744. Does anyone else load 30-06 with this powder and if so, have
you had any problems with it?

These are the first cast loads I have ever loaded in the 30-06 and the first time I
have ever used 5744.

Thanks,

F

[HARRYMPOPE]

yes and i use 16-20 grains quite a bit.I have never used that much 5744 in the 30-06.It would probably be in the 2300+ range(guess)If you want that velocity IMR4895 or slower is better.


back it down to 18g and give that a try.

George

[Larry Gibson]

Do you have a reloading manual, especially the Lyman 3rd or 4th edition of the Cast Bullet handbook? If not you might consider getting one and reading/studying the reference sections up front as they will teach the basics like not starting with or ecxeeding top end loads........

Lee's manual and the current pdf AA manual show 32 gr as max for 173 - 180 gr cast bullets. Thus you were pushing things with your 30 -35 gr loads and exceeding published max loads....5744, like any powder, can be one of the higher pressure powders, especially, like they all can, if max loads are exceeded.

The flattened primers could be from excess psi by the over max loads but since you are also experiencing backed out primers I would say you've oversized the cases and have set the case shoulder back too far. Back out the FL die a couple turnes and size well fire formed cases adjusting the die in 1/4 turn until the cases just chamber easily.

I'll also suggest neck sizing for increased case life and better accuracy but you'll need a neck size die for that. I load on a 550B also and size (NS or FL size) seperately so I can clean the size lube off, clean the primer pockets and inspect the cases before loading. I then use the M die in station 1, charge in station 2, seat ing station 3 and crimp (role, taper or not) in station 4.

If you continue to use 5744 with the 311291 cast bullet I suggest dropping down to 18 gr and working up in 1/2 gr increments to 28 gr testing with 7 - 10 shot strings at 100 yards. You'll find an accurate load in there in the 1800 -1950 fps range.

Larry Gibson

[Fugowii]

Do you have a reloading manual, especially the Lyman 3rd or 4th edition of the Cast Bullet handbook? If not you might consider getting one and reading/studying the reference sections up front as they will teach the basics like not starting with or ecxeeding top end loads........

Lee's manual and the current pdf AA manual show 32 gr as max for 173 - 180 gr cast bullets. Thus you were pushing things with your 30 -35 gr loads and exceeding published max loads....5744, like any powder, can be one of the higher pressure powders, especially, like they all can, if max loads are exceeded.

The flattened primers could be from excess psi by the over max loads but since you are also experiencing backed out primers I would say you've oversized the cases and have set the case shoulder back too far. Back out the FL die a couple turnes and size well fire formed cases adjusting the die in 1/4 turn until the cases just chamber easily.

I'll also suggest neck sizing for increased case life and better accuracy but you'll need a neck size die for that. I load on a 550B also and size (NS or FL size) seperately so I can clean the size lube off, clean the primer pockets and inspect the cases before loading. I then use the M die in station 1, charge in station 2, seat ing station 3 and crimp (role, taper or not) in station 4.

If you continue to use 5744 with the 311291 cast bullet I suggest dropping down to 18 gr and working up in 1/2 gr increments to 28 gr testing with 7 - 10 shot strings at 100 yards. You'll find an accurate load in there in the 1800 -1950 fps range.

Larry Gibson

Hi Larry,

Actually I do have those manuals and the LCBH4 shows that the load range for 5744
is from 26-35gr with 30-06 and the 311291. I also checked with the Accurate
Ballistician and he gave me the ~30gr load as a mid-range load for the 170gr boolit.

"We suggest the following."

Caliber: .30-06 Springfield.
Barrel length: 24”
Powder: Accurate – 5744®.
Bullet weight: 175 grains.
Low load: 25.5 grains (1800 – 1900 Ft/p/sec)
Midrange load: 32.3 grains (2000 – 2100 Ft/p/sec)

Tell me more about oversized cases. I size my cases on a RC with a Dillon sizing die
and check them with a Dillon Case Gage after sizing (and cleaning). They are trimmed
on a Giraud and loaded on a 550B to 3.013" per LCBH4.

I also had the Ballistician give me some loading for 5744 on my .32 WS with the RCBS
32-170-FP and this is what he gave me:

Caliber: .32Winchester Special.
Barrel length: 24”
Powder: Accurate -- 5744®.
Bullet weight: 180 grains.
Low load: 16.0 grains (1600 – 1700 Ft/p/sec)
Mid load: 20.0 grains (1800-1900 Ft/p/sec).

I've been loading these with 20grs as a starting point and I haven't noticed
any pressure signs. I might have to look a bit harder. I've been focusing on
the 30-06 lately.

[Fugowii]

yes and i use 16-20 grains quite a bit.I have never used that much 5744 in the 30-06.It would probably be in the 2300+ range(guess)If you want that velocity IMR4895 or slower is better.


back it down to 18g and give that a try.

George

What kind of velocity are you getting out of your 30-06 using those loads? Thanks for the reply.

[Kraschenbirn]

"30-35 gr. of 5744" seems like a pretty hefty charge for the 311291, even in an '06. I load 20.0 gr 5744 (no filler) under a 166 gr Loverin in a Savage 340 .30-30 for 1908 fps (avg. 10-shot string) and 1 1/2" 100M groups and no leading or pressure issues. Have also tried up to 24 gr. 5744 with the 311291 in my .308 for around 2060 fps; no leading, no pressure indications but accuracy wasn't anywhere near what I get with IMR4198 so didn't pursue any further development of the combination.

Bill

[Larry Gibson]

I did check the Lee and AA manuals prior to posting. I won't quibble with the AA technician over ".4" of a grain. But note that does not take it to 35 gr. Sure enough Lymn's manual has the max load at 35 gr. at 2388fps. Note the starting load is the potentially most accurate load at 26 gr for 1928 fps. That is still higher than most of us use for a starting load. My point was; you started at the top end of the data range. I'm sure you can find the part in the manual that says to start low and work up. That is not only the recommended way but also the safe way, especially when you admit you've "just started loading this bullet. That's probably why you're having "issues" with it.

Not trying to give you a hard time here but you've found out why it's best to start low and work up. Note that you started at the top end load (though described as a "mid" load) in stead of the low starting load. Starting at the top end is problematic. If I may ask is there a particular reason or something you're wanting (velocity?) by starting at the top end?

Tell me more about oversized cases. I size my cases on a RC with a Dillon sizing die
and check them with a Dillon Case Gage after sizing (and cleaning). They are trimmed
on a Giraud and loaded on a 550B to 3.013" per LCBH4.

Dillon dies (Yes I have some and use them when needed) size to the minimum case specification both in case body dimentions and case headspace. You don't say but I assume your remington is a bolt action? If so it is not necessary to minimally size your cases. The Remingtons chamber should be your "case Gage" if that is the only rifle you will use them in. Neck sizing sizes just the neck and leaves the case body so it is formed to the chamber. This promotes accuracy and case life. It also prevents, in all but the lowest loads, primers from backing out. I'm sure there's also a section in your manuals describing proper setting of dies to your chamber. Point is; your cases are not oversized after firing. They are being undersized by you with the technique you're using. If you can't find that section on correctly setting the dies then ask and we can help.

One additional question if you don't mind; what kind of accuracy were you getting at 100 yards with the 30 -35 gr loads?

Larry Gibson

[Fugowii]

I did check the Lee and AA manuals prior to posting. I won't quibble with the AA technician over ".4" of a grain. But note that does not take it to 35 gr. Sure enough Lymn's manual has the max load at 35 gr. at 2388fps. Note the starting load is the potentially most accurate load at 26 gr for 1928 fps. That is still higher than most of us use for a starting load. My point was; you started at the top end of the data range.

No I didn't. I started at the mid-point in the load recommendations and actually
below what the Ballistician said was the mid-range load of 32.5gr. You need to
read more carefully.


I'm sure you can find the part in the manual that says to start low and work up. That is not only the recommended way but also the safe way, especially when you admit you've "just started loading this bullet. That's probably why you're having "issues" with it.

Are you always a condescending jerk when you reply to a post or is it just me bringing
the bad out in you?


Not trying to give you a hard time here but you've found out why it's best to start low and work up. Note that you started at the top end load (though described as a "mid" load) in stead of the low starting load. Starting at the top end is problematic. If I may ask is there a particular reason or something you're wanting (velocity?) by starting at the top end?

I didn't and I see you have a somewhat difficult time trying to comprehend what a
mid-range is between 26 and 35. It's about 30.5 if you are having a hard time
figuring out the math.


Tell me more about oversized cases. I size my cases on a RC with a Dillon sizing die
and check them with a Dillon Case Gage after sizing (and cleaning). They are trimmed
on a Giraud and loaded on a 550B to 3.013" per LCBH4.

Dillon dies (Yes I have some and use them when needed) size to the minimum case specification both in case body dimentions and case headspace. You don't say but I assume your Remington is a bolt action?

I did say it was a Remington 700. If you are not familiar with that model it is a bolt action.


If so it is not necessary to minimally size your cases. The Remingtons chamber should be your "case Gage" if that is the only rifle you will use them in. Neck sizing sizes just the neck and leaves the case body so it is formed to the chamber. This promotes accuracy and case life. It also prevents, in all but the lowest loads, primers from backing out.

You need to give me the logic behind that bolded statement. It prevent primers
from coming out in all but the lowest loads?


I'm sure there's also a section in your manuals describing proper setting of dies to your chamber. Point is; your cases are not oversized after firing. They are being undersized by you with the technique you're using. If you can't find that section on correctly setting the dies then ask and we can help.


Another childish condescending response. You have issues.


One additional question if you don't mind; what kind of accuracy were you getting at 100 yards with the 30 -35 gr loads?

Not bad. Not benchrest accuracy but definitely field quality.


Larry Gibson

Thanks for your responses but outside of I am using loads you think are too high and
I'm using sizing dies that are making my cases "too small" I'm not sure what else I
should pick up on what you've offered. Maybe I'll go read the book again like you
suggested. My apologies for bothering the anointed ones.

[blackthorn]

You asked a question and you got some ansers! Then you argue! If you already knew---why ask?

[onondaga]

Brass that is neck-sized or full sized with the die adjusted to your fire formed brass for neck sizing or to your bolt closure for full sizing has a clear advantage of maximizing the internal volume of the cartridge for the type of die being used.

Those procedures definitely lower pressure when compared to sizing with a full length sizing die adjusted to bottom on your shell holder..

Larry was trying to help you get your pressure down and stop flattening and backing primers out of their seated position as you report with your loads..

Increasing pressure at all when you are already having warnings that you list gets dangerous. Something as seemingly unimportant as seating boolits .010 deeper or changing primer brand could blow your face off from where you are right now with pressure signs.


Lengthening your LOA till boolit engages the rifling will also lower pressure if your previous LOA was shorter and if the longer rounds will function in your action.

Sizing your cast boolits smaller, within limits of fit will also lower pressure and increase velocity and so can softer boolits.

I have a simple suggestion I use when starting a load for a new boolit. Research what recommended powder yields the lowest pressure and smoothest pressure curve at the velocity you desire for a first powder selection with cast boolits. The powder that does that with the highest loading density approaching 100% is generally the most accurate on the target. 5744 is popular with cast loads and reduced jacketed loads because it is not position sensitive. That characteristic has no relevance to pressure.

The guy you are calling names is trying help you from hurting yourself. You are not helping your own safety and health by arguing with Larry. You are wrong and proceeding unsafely to prove a point that is debatable, yes, but erring on the side of safety versus the side of velocity doesn't appear to be of interest to you as much as calling Larry names because you disagree with him..

10% below maximum is commonly a recommended starting load. Minimum recommended charges are made based on ignition and burn characteristics of each specific powder. Those borders are for safety due to mishaps reported or calculated beyond them. You started at what you believed was a safe differential and got pressure signs. No matter what the reason is that is a huge STOP sign. Back off on your charge and back off on Larry.


Gary

[HARRYMPOPE]

What kind of velocity are you getting out of your 30-06 using those loads? Thanks for the reply.

14-1500 range and they shoot very well.(i'll dig out my chrono book but i believe those are good numbers)


George

[Larry Gibson]

I'm out of this one......guess I didn't read right or understand;

"I've just started loading this boolit for my Remington 30-06 and I am having some issues
with it. I am using 30 to 35 grains of 5744 and I am flattening primers and they are
backing out of the primer hole."

Sorry to have bothered you.

Larry Gibson

[W.R.Buchanan]

Fugowii: I'm just seeing this one, but you obviously need some guidance. Since you won't listen to Larry maybe you'll listen to me. 32.5 gr of 5744 is NOT a midrange load, despite what you have been told or deduced on your own! If you are backing primers out and flattening them, it would certainly confirm the above statement.

With that bullet you need to be running 25 gr of 5744. End of Story! This load will yeild 18-1900 fps. Just do this and you'll be happy, and all of your previously stated problems will go away.

This load was published in Rifle Magazine by Mike Venturino. And I use it alot, in fact I use it exclusively.

If you want more Velocity then use a different powder, but first take this into consideration. "you can't run that bullet much faster than 1900 fps and have it actually hit the target." They just don't go very much faster and live.

If you are looking for faster then Jacketed bullets are a necessity.

Now apologize to Larry! He was just trying to educate you enough so you wouldn't blow yourself up! YOU obviously missed HIS point!

Randy

[Papa smurf]

Papa smurf here Larry. Now I remember why I stopped posting on this web site .

[HARRYMPOPE]

i think it was an issue of a simple question that was turned into a "class on bullet casting and loading" that offended the poster.

just my take

George

[swheeler]

Fugowii; never loaded that light a cast bullet in 06 with 5744. Now with the 200 grain Lee 23.0 gr gives 1620 fps and stellar accuracy, many 5 shot 100 yd group near 1/2 moa. Use your FL dies to partial FL size, back them off until they size about 1/2 the neck only. I remember when I posted about partial full lenghth sizing 7 years go all the questions as to why, guess they figured it out. I would guess somewhere between 20-25 grs you will find joy. Scot

[Papa smurf]

Papa smurf here again. The answers were all good . It seems to me Fugowii dont make any mistakes and all of us are wrong.

[excess650]

I worked up to 29gr AA5744 in RP cases with the 200gr Saeco #301 (Rem 700 30-06). It is a pretty stout load, and recoil is noticeable. I've not chrono'd this load but it takes 500m rams down with authority.

I noticed the OP mention mixed LC and RP cases. I would suggest comparing the capacity of those cases and fully expect the LC to be thicker, so less capacity. Keep them seperated.

My Husqvarna 30-06 seemed to prefer lighter charges than my Rem 700, but in the 24-26gr range with 175-200gr cast.

I've also shot 7.55x55 in K31s a fair amount and my PP cases have almost identical capacity to RP 30-06. My K31s like 22gr AA5744 under 175gr Saeco #315 or the 300gr Saeco #301. Both of these have noticeably less recoil than the 29gr 30-06 load, but will usually take down 500m rams.

My Marlin 336CB 30-30 seemed to prefer 17-20gr charges of AA5744 with 160-180gr cast.

'98 Turk 8x57 seems to work best in the 18-20gr range with 225-250gr cast.

The point is each rifle seems to have its own sweet spot. There are some general trends for various calibers, but its prudent to start low and work up.

[gray wolf]

Sometimes you got to wonder why we even bother. ???????????????

[Fugowii]

Many thanks to all the responders.