Stupid Noobie Smelting Question

[dmftoy1]

Ok, I've been slowly accumulating wheel weights and doing as much reading as possible. This weekend the wife has banished me from the house because she's hosting a basket weaving party so I'm contemplating making an attempt at creating ingots for a yet to be purchased casting pot. (Lee Production Pot 20). I still have to weld up my ingot molds but that shouldn't take me too long with the info I've found here. Ok, so back to my original question:

I had an old dutch oven laying around and a turkery fryer so I'm set there. I need to make a trip to the thrift shop to try and find the appropriate spoons and such and I feel confident in that part. The thing I'm not completely sure of is whether I should be fluxing when I make my ingots? All the reading I've done seems to indicate that you do it when you cast but I haven't seen much related to doing it when you're smelting your WW.

My plan so far was to fill the dutch oven with bone dry wheel weights and fire up the turkey cooker keeping and eye on it until I hit 625-650 degrees and then try to tweak the burner to hold it there. From what I can see you then skim off anything that floats to the surface (clips, etc.) without stirring it too much.

That's where I get a bit confused . . . .some of what I've read indicates that you flux the smelter with some sawdust, skim off the dross and then start ladling the lead into your ingot molds . . .

Is that what most people are doing?

I've already sorted out the pure lead stick-on weights from the clip weights and I didn't see any wheel weights with "ZN" on them so I think I've got them segregated pretty well. The plan right now is to open up the doors on the pole barn and fire up the turkey fryer in there. The only thing I'm a bit nervous about is whether molten lead spilled on concrete will come up easily or if I need to put down some sort of barrier. (I've got 1/4 inch steel plate to rest my hot tools on)

Thanks in advance, and sorry if I'm asking something that I should be able to easily find.

Have a good one,
Dave

[garandsrus]

Dave,

You definitely need to flux when making the ingots... When you are actually casting you don't need to flux very much.

Here's a good site with smelting/casting information: Goatlips Smelting (http://goatlipstips.cas-town.com/smelting.html)

[arkypete]

dfmtoy
When I flux I use up all the candle stubs left over from wife's attempts at covering the smell of my cigarettes.
Jim

[44man]

Yes, skim all the crap off first, then flux with what you like, I like wax and light the smoke. Then pour your ingots. I don't have a problem with concrete but stay away from asphalt. I use wood to lay my tools on and I put the ingot mold on hardwood. It just chars a little. That keeps a lot of slop off the floor.

[bishopgrandpa]

It was mentioned a few days ago to use old marble trophy bases to protect the bench from getting scorched. Sounds like a good idea and yard sale season starts in a few months. Happy hunting.

[dmftoy1]

Thanks so much for the replies.

So after fluxing do I do another skim of anything that forms on the top or is it good to put into the ingot molds right after everything burns off and it's lightly stirred?


Ok, and one last question. Do you put the entire pot into the ingot molds or do you ladle out until there's some scum left on the bottom of the pot and that just gets thrown away?

My thinking was that I could get the last bit out of the pot by putting on my welding gloves and picking it up and pouring it into an ingot mold but if the stuff on the bottom is junk then I don't want to create a bad ingot.

Thanks again,
Dave

[1Shirt]

Lead splattered on concrete just lifts off, or at least it does in my garage floor. When I do a batch of wheelweights, or scrap, I stur with a wooden dowl, and a bit of candle was and it stinks, so suggest outside. An old strainer type large spoon from good will helps when getting the clips and crud off the top and letting the lead flow through. Am starting to save the skimmings, and when I get a large can or two of same, will run them as a seperate batch. There have been a couple of threads on this web that have recommended that where they have picked up a few extra pounds of lead. Won't know that however for sure until I try it.
Good Luck!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[spottedpony]

................... The only thing I'm a bit nervous about is whether molten lead spilled on concrete will come up easily or if I need to put down some sort of barrier.......................

Have a good one,
Dave

My experience has been the little drips that end up on the garage floor sweep up easily, because the slick finish gives them noting to adhire to. though i suspect they would be harder to clean up off a rough surface. (say that of a concrete "cinder" block)

[Bass Ackward]

The more you read questions like this, the more you realize that a beginning casting video would answer so many questions.

FEAR ,of the unknown, seems to be the biggest impediment to casting. Just something basic. Wouldn't have to be all inclusive or get too drawn out. Just something so people would realize that they won't blow up or burn down the house or something. The danger would be to try and make it too comprehensive and thus put people to sleep.

Of coarse, that would then cut down on questions here.

But it could add to the revenue stream at the .... Cast Boolit Store. (Hint, hint.)

[Dale53]

dmftoy1;
I lay down a plywood sheet (8'x4') to set the turkey fryer smelter on. Lead drips on a normal concrete driveway can be difficult to get up. Keeping it off, is much easier than clean up.

Melt the lead at 650 or so (keeping below the "zinc temperature". Using a slotted spoon (large picnic size) carefully lift out the clips. Do not lift out gray "trash" until after you have fluxed. Some of this is good material and will go back into the melt when fluxed. Flux and stir deeply. Now all you'll have on top is "true trash". Carefully, using the slotted spoon which will let melted bullet metal run back into the pot, skim off the "trash". Put the trash in a 2 lb coffee can and cover with the plastic lid. When it gets full, you can tape on the lid and then turn into the annual "hazardous materials collection" (we must be responsible). This stuff contains bad material such as lead oxide which can be absorbed by the body (with ill effects) if breathed.

Keep the clips separate. I understand some junk yards pay good money for these (of course wait until you have a bucket full to make it worth while).

THEN pour the melted bullet metal into the ingot moulds. I completely empty the pot. Some suggest leaving an inch of molten metal in the pot to speed up the second melt. I prefer the empty pot - it is safer. If you drop a wet wheelweight (one with ice, snow, or condensate on it, you can have a steam explosion which will spread molten lead over everything near by, including but not limited to, yourself! When you drop wet ww's in an empty pot, the moisture will gradually warm up and gently move to the atmosphere. Understand, we do NOT deliberately put wet WW's in a lead pot. If it happens by accident, and goes in to an empty pot, it should not present a problem.

FWIW
Dale53

[AlaskaMike]

I definitely agree with 44man on smelting on asphalt--I really did a number on my mom & dad's new asphalt driveway when I lifted my 10qt pot off the burner, and spilled about 20 lbs of lead (AWAY from me, very thankfully). I tried peeling the lead up after it had cooled, but asphalt came up with it. Now there's a nice huge splat pattern in their driveway.

If you'll be smelting on asphalt, I can't recommend highly enough to put down some old plywood first!

Mike

[Treeman]

Dmftoy, I further recommend fluxing your WW multiple times and scraping down the sides of the pot and the bottom. Typically, I find that the first flux and skim gets most ofthe junk, the second yields a little more and the last (third in most cases)generally seems to be little more than the ash from the flux. If you can't find a suitable slotted spoon just buy a large spoon and drill a couple of small holes in the center section.

[NVcurmudgeon]

dmftoy, as Dale said, skim off the clips before fluxing, using a STEEL slotted spoon. The alloy will not stick to the steel, so you will be taking out only clean clips. Then flux, and the black crud will be much easier to skim off without throwing away too much of the good stuff. A bent teaspoon is a pretty good skimmer, but not one of SWMBO's best! Here's hoping you already went through the bucket and removed Coke and Copenhagen cans, rubber tire valves, plastic tire labels, cigarette butts, etc. Tire markng crayons can stay in and provide some extra flux. A lot of tire changers use the weight bucket for a general purpose trash can.

[carpetman]

Garage sale season opens in a few months and the garage sale commission is engaged in a big debate. The special season for wheelchairs is the topic. Motorized wheelchairs are now abundant and it is thought that they are not restricted in fair chase. Motorized wheelchairs dont seem to meet the primitive characteristics intended by the law. Besides electric motors,some are equipped with big engines so they can zero in on yard sales blocks away. Some areas no muffin pans at all to be found. Other areas maybe a few aluminum pans and a teflon coated or two but no Betty and Crockett rusty pans. Some have given up and resorted to using ingot molds. Not only are muffin pans becoming scarce,it is getting harder to find marble squares--especially old bowling trophy type with holes in them.

[ktw]

dmftoy1;
I lay down a plywood sheet (8'x4') to set the turkey fryer smelter on. Lead drips on a normal concrete driveway can be difficult to get up. Keeping it off, is much easier than clean up.

I use a big sheet of cardboard under the turkey fryer. Drippings don't stick to it or burn it and slide right off into a bucket at the end of the day.

I have an old pallet next to it on which I put the the ingot molds, tools, etc. I smelt on an old gravel driveway and usually have to shim the pallet a bit to keep the ingot molds reasonably level.

Behind that is a sheet of scrap plywood where I dump hot ingots to cool.

I flux with used motor oil and stir with a wooden stick.

I drain the pot with each batch. The pot is too hot to hold for any length of time with welders gloves. When there isn't enough left in the pot to scoop with the ladle I pick up the pot with a vice grip on the bail (cast iron dutch oven) and use a set of channel locks on the little tab on the side of the pot to control the pour into the ingot molds.

-ktw

[dmftoy1]

Alright, great stuff! (Sorry for the stupid questions) I'm feeling MUCH more comfortable now. I just finished making 6 ingot molds out of 2 inch angle and they turned out pretty good. Tomorrow I'm going to dress the wells up a bit with the high speed grinder and then hit the thrift shops and get set up for smelting early sunday morning.

Would an old slotted spoon thing from a fry daddy deep fryer work good for skimming? the handle isn't real long but it looks like it would catch clips pretty easily and let everything else go back into the pot.

So I've got the following all located in the Pole barn:

Old sheet of 5/8th plywood to set turkey fryer and tools on.
Turkey Fryer
20lb Tank of Propane (full)
6 ingot molds
RCBS Lead Thermometer
dutch oven
A ton of dry sawdust (I know . I only need a little)

From what I can see all I need is some vice grips and a stew ladle, a slotted spoon of some sort and maybe a regular spoon of some sort.

Thanks again,
Dave

[Ricochet]

Like ktw, I use old motor oil to flux when smelting.

[TCLouis]

Safety Glasses (ALWAYS)
Long Sleeves and pants
Gloves


Lead heated from cold to molten WILL be dry!

pour the silver stream and create real boolits

[targetshootr]

check out Goatlips site for a tutorial.

http://goatlipstips.cas-town.com/smelting.html

[dmftoy1]

Ok, first session is complete and I think things turned out pretty well. By my estimation I've got about 85-95lbs of wheel weights cast into ingots. From the pictures I've seen on here they look to be right . .parts of them are really shiny and parts of them are a little "frosted".

Here are my follow up questions:

1. Is there anyway you can tell if you did it right? :) On my first pot I ended up with the temperature near 900 degrees before I turned it down. I don't think any zinc clips melted because I still found some floating but now I'm paranoid that I got it too hot. I'm guessing I'll only know when I start casting bullets with them?

2. Do your ingots ever "break" when you dump them out of the moulds? I've made up 6 moulds out of 2 inch angle and most of them came out real easy with a light tap upside down but twice I had to give it a fairly solid thump before they dropped out and two of them "broke" in the middle. I'm guessing this isn't something to be concerned about but as I've never seen any pictures of broken ingots . . . :)



Here is what I learned today:

1. You don't need to run your turkey fryer on a high setting to melt the lead . .if you do you'll go over 650 degrees real easy. (Do you guys run them really high initially and then throttle back?)

2. It is nice to have some sort of table about the same height as your dutch oven to make ladling the lead into the molds happen faster.

3. Leave the ladle in the pot when messing with the molds to keep it hot . .otherwise it seems to "coagulate" the lead when you put it into the pot.

4. You can move pretty fast when pouring the ingots and you then end up with better more "solid" ingots.

5. You should wash your face before heading into town after casting otherwise you look like you work in a coal mine

Thanks again everyone!

Have a good one,
Dave

[Sundogg1911]

i usually put a cast (dutch oven) pot on my turkey fryer on plywood over the sidewalk, while i'm doing other things (gutting grass) casting bullets, planting in the garden, etc. then I go back skim all the dross and clips off the top, and throw in some flux. (candle wax, bullet lube, sawdust, old motor oil, etc.) clean it fill ingot moulds (I have enough 1 to 3 pound moulds to do about 40 pounds of alloy at a time.) Then I throw more wheel weights (or Lino) what ever I am cleaning. I never mix WW's and Lino or anything, untill ready to cast. I uses a Sharpie to mark the alloy with either WW, or L. I use 2 pots (sometimes 3) I use one to cast with and at least one other as my feeder pot. I mix my WW's, Lino, and 50/50 bar solder (for the tin) at that point. It seems esier for me to be consistant that way.

[arkypete]

Ok, first session is complete and I think things turned out pretty well. By my estimation I've got about 85-95lbs of wheel weights cast into ingots. From the pictures I've seen on here they look to be right . .parts of them are really shiny and parts of them are a little "frosted".

Here are my follow up questions:

1. Is there anyway you can tell if you did it right? On my first pot I ended up with the temperature near 900 degrees before I turned it down. I don't think any zinc clips melted because I still found some floating but now I'm paranoid that I got it too hot. I'm guessing I'll only know when I start casting bullets with them?

Chances are you did it right.
Clips are steel not zinc.
Back when I did my smelting using a coal fired, forced air smelter I didn’t worry about temp. I wanted the lead hot and liquid as quickly as possible. I wanted to see hundreds of ingots after a days effort.

2. Do your ingots ever "break" when you dump them out of the moulds? I've made up 6 moulds out of 2 inch angle and most of them came out real easy with a light tap upside down but twice I had to give it a fairly solid thump before they dropped out and two of them "broke" in the middle. I'm guessing this isn't something to be concerned about but as I've never seen any pictures of broken ingots . . .

Sure ‘nuff did break some ingots, just means you’re dumping them faster then you should. No big deal.
I use a bunch of Lyman, Saeco, RCBS ingot molds that I’ve picked over the years. I will pour the molten lead into them resting on a piece of plywood. When all twelve ingot molds are full I drag them over to the ground using channel locks and let them set there for a few seconds. Mother earth can suck the heat out real fast, especially if the ground is wet or damp. Then I dump the molds and get ready to fill again. Broken ingots melt just as fine as the whole ingots.


Here is what I learned today:

1. You don't need to run your turkey fryer on a high setting to melt the lead . .if you do you'll go over 650 degrees real easy. (Do you guys run them really high initially and then throttle back?)

I set the temp and keep going. Like I said I want hundreds of ingots. I’m not alloying here I cleaning the lead to produce a usable raw material .

2. It is nice to have some sort of table about the same height as your dutch oven to make ladling the lead into the molds happen faster.

I have and suggest you get one of those big ladles. Each ladle holds 10 or 15 pounds of lead. Once you’ve spent a day working with that ladle your hands will thank you.


3. Leave the ladle in the pot when messing with the molds to keep it hot . .otherwise it seems to "coagulate" the lead when you put it into the pot.

Yup, you are right

4. You can move pretty fast when pouring the ingots and you then end up with better more "solid" ingots.

The more ingot molds you have the faster you can move

5. You should wash your face before heading into town after casting otherwise you look like you work in a coal mine

You should try doing this job using coal. One of the Bros offered me membership in the NAACP.

Thanks again everyone!

[MT Gianni]

If you got ingots made you did it right. I turn my burner down as soon as I get a liquid melt 3/4 of the way up the sides to the level my ww are at. I then stir to bring up clips and submerge ww. When I have a good melt everywhere I skim, then flux, then skim and flux and start my pours. I was out for 2 1/2 hrs today inccluding set up and clean up and recovered 140+ lbs of ingots. Just teh same as bullets ingots will break if too hot when poured onto a hard surface. there is no loss as half an ingot is just as suitable as a whole one but no one is going to show you a picture of their ugly cousin either. Keep at it. Gianni.

[happy7]

I also smelted today for the first time. Everything went really good, except I didn't know what to do about the skin that formed on top the liquid lead. I know I am not supposed to skim off tin and antimony. So I skimmed the clips off and then fluxed with candle. (Now I've been reading again. Next time I will use sawdust). But the skin was still there. I fluxed some more. My pot had about 50 pounds of lead in it. I probably put about 4 inches of a 1 inch diameter candle eventually, but still had lots of skin. So am I supposed to skim off the skin? It was grey. It hung in sheets from my ladle and made pouring a little difficut. Later I started skimming it off. Please advise.

Matt

[Treeman]

I flux before skimming clips. That way I find that it is easy to get the clips without gobbets of lead and the grey scum which.,depending on who you believe is either good stuff like tin and antimony or merely oxidized metal that can be deoxidized by fluxing.

[Ricochet]

Yeah, skim it off. You're not separating out tin and antimony. It's oxides of the lead and other alloy metals, dirt and carbon.

[WHITETAIL]

Dave, Great job! Now you are hooked. Just a worning, their is no cure for the lead bug. Now you will be seen along the road looking for lost WW. Lurking in unlit parking lots with plyers in hand. And even at the range with a sifter and shovel in hand. So before you windup on a wanted poster, pack up all of you stuff. And send it to me. I will be happy to dispose of it NO CHARGE!

Welcome to the world of making your own.

[Dale53]

Dave;
It has been many, MANY years since I started casting bullets. However, I can still remember the feeling of satisfaction when I started turning out my first decent bullets. I was just a lad and worked for my father in a "Hardware Store/Appliance Repair Shop". There was a gas fired kitchen stove set up in a kitchen setting that we often used to prepare lunches (microwaves hadn't been invented yet[smilie=1: ). My first casting was done in a Lyman cast iron pot with dipper using the kitchen range for heat. I also had my first visit from the "tinsel fairy". I got NO complaints from my parents, just concern that I might have injured myself. It was understood that I would not need to do THAT again[smilie=1:. (in spite of glasses, I filled my eyes with microscopic bits of molten lead - I had to roll my eyelids down and scrape out the grains of "lead sand". Fortunately, the moisture in my eyes prevented any serious damage - the glasses kept the large droplets from contacting my eyes). All of this was a learning experience ("What does not kill us, makes us stronger!" - and hopefully, smarter:drinks: ).

So, congratulations on your first efforts, welcome to the club, and BE SAFE!!

Dale53

[dakotashooter2]

If your ingots broke when you dumped them you may need to let them cool a bit more. If you are working to fast the mold will heat up and it can take a while for the ingots to cool and solidify. I do my ingoting in the winter and set my filled mold on the cold garage floor to cool. Also if you are using a spoon/ ladel with a plastic handle I would recommend replacing the handle with a wood one. If you are leaving it in the melt to keep it hot the handle will eventually melt or degrade and break. Just drill an undersized hole in an old broom handle, hammer it on and cut to desired length.