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View Full Version : Kelly's Heros-MN 91/30 Sniper



dualsport
08-30-2011, 11:18 AM
I watched that old WWII movie, 'Kelly's Heros', last night. Caught something that surprised me. Near the end there's a GI sniper in a bell tower, he's using a Russian sniper rifle! Real deal it looked like, had the bent bolt and goofy scope and mount. A movie blunder or could that have really happened?

Hardcast416taylor
08-30-2011, 11:32 AM
Doubt it would have happened, Stalin needed all his troops could get anyway. A movie director will throw something into a movie irregardless if it is factual and accurate or not.Robert

Finster101
08-30-2011, 11:43 AM
Why could it have not happened? I would imagine that in a battle field situation a guy might pick something like that up if spotted thinking it could be darned handy sometime.

Wayne Smith
08-30-2011, 12:23 PM
Significant distance between the Eastern Front and the Western Front. We sent a lot of stuff East, Stalin sent nothing West unless his troops were carrying it! Highly unlikely for a Russian sniper rifle to end up in American hands prior to the meeting of the armies.

theperfessor
08-30-2011, 12:41 PM
Highly unlikely, but still... If a German sniper killed a Russian sniper and claimed his weapon, and brought the gun home, ended up on the Western front, and lost the weapon there to a GI...

More than likely they needed a military looking sniper rifle and some prop house had that one handy.

P.K.
08-30-2011, 02:28 PM
Highly unlikely, but still... If a German sniper killed a Russian sniper and claimed his weapon, and brought the gun home, ended up on the Western front, and lost the weapon there to a GI...

More than likely they needed a military looking sniper rifle and some prop house had that one handy.

Not in my case, no thanks to the MN, why? I would have been carring something MUCH better, a 1903A4.;-)

Besides I don't think any "respectable nazi" would be cought dead coveting an "inferior" weapon.

LIMPINGJ
08-30-2011, 02:49 PM
And what ammo for it.

Thumbcocker
08-30-2011, 07:14 PM
According to one source on snipng, I believe it was "Out of Nowhere" the Wermacht eagerly issued captured Mosin sniper rifles. The book included a series of interviews with German veterens one of whom was issued a Mosin and used it throughout the war. The German optical isdustry was strained by the manufacture of periscopes, sights for 88's, rifle scopes and a variety of other items. So a solid rifle already set up to snipe was a prize.

It was not at all uncommon for German units to use Soviet equipment. Soviet heavy mortars and antitank guns were prized as were ppsh subguns (Cross of Iron and the memior it was based on refer to this). There were instances of T-34's being repainted and used. Soviet trucks were also appreciated for their durability by an enemy chronically short on transport.

The Red Army was horribly lead at the beginning of the war but consistely got better. I always felt that it was like the Army of the Potomic in it's being mishandled but continuing to come back.

dualsport
08-30-2011, 09:05 PM
The movie was on the Military History Channel's 'An Officer and a Movie' series. They have a veteran visit with the host of the show, comment during intermissions, and critique the movie as it goes along. The guest veteran this time was a former Army Colonel who pointed out another bigger 'unlikelihood' in the movie, the fact that they would have needed 25- 2 1/2 ton trucks to move the amount of gold they supposedly scored from the Germans. In the movie 1 truck did the trick. I guess that's artistic license. Anyway, it's a good movie with Clint Eastwood, Telly Savalas, and some other great old actors. Just not too hung up on reality. Slightly off topic (ok, a lot), I shot in a Long Range Vintage Military Rifle Match last Saturday. 300, 500, 600, and 800 yards, more or less CMP style but all prone with an ammo box rest. A guy shooting a MN 91/30 with issue sights did very well in his class. Next October there will be a similar match except it's "Sniper Practice' match, also vintage rifles.

gew98
08-30-2011, 09:30 PM
Significant distance between the Eastern Front and the Western Front. We sent a lot of stuff East, Stalin sent nothing West unless his troops were carrying it! Highly unlikely for a Russian sniper rifle to end up in American hands prior to the meeting of the armies.

It is not only likely but did happen. I have personally seen two tokarev rifles , a mosn 91/30 ( I owned at one time ) and a PU sniper that were all bringbacks from europe ( not to mention the couple tok & nagant pistols too ). Russian small arms of about all kind you can think were carried west by german formations going for rest & refit/occupation duty. In fact there is a pic of glider pilots in a higgins boat just after D-Day where they are being transported to a ship to go back to england and in the boat is a couple 98k's and a tokarev ( Svt40 ).

gew98
08-30-2011, 09:35 PM
Not in my case, no thanks to the MN, why? I would have been carring something MUCH better, a 1903A4.;-)

Besides I don't think any "respectable nazi" would be cought dead coveting an "inferior" weapon.

Wow. The 1903A4 when available was soundly thrashed by ANYONE with shooting experiance. Inadequate and delicate optics , bad stocking and no iron sights , inability to hold zero !. About as piss poor as that Zf41 long eye relief joke the germans fielded.
The PU or PE was miles above the 03A4 in accuracy , reliability and flat out sturdiness. The communists use dthe PU's in Korea and vietnam to great effect...can't say the same for the 03A4 toy.
Get a copy of Dunlap's "Ordnance went up front" and a copy of George's "Shots Fired in anger". Just two men mind you that were there and did that ..and used the 03A4 debacle.

lead-1
08-30-2011, 10:42 PM
I read once that the country that that part of the movie was filmed, used Soviet weapons at the time of the filming. When the script called for a sniper weapon, the Nagant was readily available and easily rendered safe to use as a movie prop.
Wish I could remember where I read that but it was about props, like Bullitt passing the same VW on the same street ten times or 1970's guns in WWI movies.

P.K.
08-31-2011, 07:43 AM
Wow. The 1903A4 when available was soundly thrashed by ANYONE with shooting experiance. Inadequate and delicate optics , bad stocking and no iron sights , inability to hold zero !. About as piss poor as that Zf41 long eye relief joke the germans fielded.
The PU or PE was miles above the 03A4 in accuracy , reliability and flat out sturdiness. The communists use dthe PU's in Korea and vietnam to great effect...can't say the same for the 03A4 toy.
Get a copy of Dunlap's "Ordnance went up front" and a copy of George's "Shots Fired in anger". Just two men mind you that were there and did that ..and used the 03A4 debacle.

While not a voice of experiance concerning this weapon or having read the two opinions you listed there is a world of differing opinions concerning this platform and most had to deal with the 03-A3 and the 03-A4, and the addition of either Lyman or Weaver optics to the platform in 43-44. All things considered, with nearly 30,000 units produced and usage running into the early 1960's I would think there may be a few redeaming qualities despite "ANYONES" experiance, wouldn't you say? As a side note and maybe just a historical head scratcher, but the TM for this platform was still in print as of 1970. With the possibility of many functioning weapons either in use or atleast carried on the property books with at least the Army. WOW, pretty good service run for such a "piss poor" firearm.:wink:

gew98
08-31-2011, 10:03 AM
PK ; There was still 03A4's in ARNG inventory back in the early 90's...I know for a fact as I took part in pulling them from store and sednign themback o the fed god as obsolete. whether they destroyed these or sold through the DCM then I don't know. They were all flat new and useless as there was no ammunition readily availabel to them and nobody in the ARNG in my state then wanted them on their property books.
The use of the Lyman alaskan is considerably over stated. So very very few ever got a lyman alaskan it is nore akin to a myth. That does not change the fact of the poor mounting system and bad 330C weaver tubes that 99.9% of them got saddled with. As well in Brohpy's book on the springfield he includes a detaield summary from 1951 from an army command in Korea about the Myriad of quality & accuracy issues they had with the 03A4's that were pulled out of store and issued. The fact is the O3A4 was an afterthought stopgap of a low end that was simply kept in store after WW2 for lack of any desire by ordnance to learn from their mistakes and get serious about sniping. It took until 1965 before the US military collectively got it's head out of it's **** on that note.
The germans certainly produced more than 30,000 copies of the 98k with Zf41 long eye relief optic... and it was about as useless and delicate as an optically sighted rifle could have been and the Numbers made of 03A4's alone justify little. Except to prove it was a stopgap filler ordered and produced in quantity with little regard towards quality.

Hardcast416taylor
08-31-2011, 01:51 PM
The movie was supposedly taking place in France. "Clairmont" as Carol O`Connor called.Robert