Bullshop got me thinking.

[castblaster]

I've been following Bullshop, Dr B, and Larry's threads on Bullshops 3640fps 221 Fireball. (can someone post the links for me, I'm not that advanced yet) And it's got me thinking. I've cast and loaded for many rifles and pistols with somewhat ok to very good results at the usual mid range velocity's and mid range powders. I've never trying to push anything hard because i "knew" it would lead and not be accurate. So I don't have any experience with trying to push the 30-06 what are your experiences with doing so? what velocity did you start to get leading? what powders were you using:fast,mid,slow? what speed did you lose accuracy?

My load for the 30-06 now is 314299 that drops .312 sized .311 with water drooped ww,GC,touching rifling,21g 4227,1600fps and shoots about .75moa no leading. 1800fps was a bigger group. during load workup i tried a rcbs 30-150-fn plain base but acww. just drooped it in case with same charge of 21g of 4224. leaded the barrel badly after just five shots. now I've done my due diligence with bore sludge, throat sludge, proper fit, flash hole debur, trimmed cases, sorted boolits and cases for weight, and the what nots to get small groups. when i don't i get lots more fliers

Back to It got me thinking. After reading Bullshops thread. I glommed on to the concept of using a full charge of slow powder to give the boolit an easy start being pushed by a bunch of powder similar to cream of wheat. My 30-06 is 10" twist not the 14"or 16" that bullshop was using.

Now mind you I'm one of those unlucky folks that live in "out on the farm" so when I get a wild idea, i can act on it be for i get a chance to get scared and come to my sense. I look in the Lyman manual looked for the slowest powder data for 200g jword bullet. its 58g of H-4831 compressed charge. shows to be 2620fps.

So i try it. load case with H4831 put my 314299 on top and shoot across crono, says 2710fps. I must say: fire, smoke and snot went everywhere. that made the 06 speak!!! took the gun in and pushed a tight dry patch through,no lead. so i loaded 5 more sat at the bench and put them on 100 yard target. the four that hit the paper shot 10.25". gun back inside, patch again, still no leading.

A few of my thoughts:
Remember I've never tried to push the 06. is it normal to go 2700fps with no leading?
The large group, i think comes from lead being too soft.(wdww 1 week old)and long boolit.
To Larry Gibson's point the rpm (if my calculations are correct) is about 194,000 rpm.
bullshop was using short for cal. boolit, i used long for cal.(need to try shorter one)

[JeffinNZ]

You may require a boolit with more up front support than the 299 is giving you. There is an awful lot of bore riding nose out there to go skew. I would look to a Loverin pattern or at least the 311284.

[shotman]

Dont see the point in "pushing" lead WHY ?? WW gc,d will run easy 1700 and that is fast enough

[leftiye]

Do you have another boolit to try? Something like a Loverin design will really help. 30 years ago, I did purty well with a 311466 and full house loads in a 30-30 super 14 contender. Maybe experiment with linotype? Harder, and it do cast very purty. Better castings help accuracy. What lube are you using? Though it didn't lead, so it can't be too bad. Use the best lube you can figger out. Research some of BaBore, 45 2.1, and Bass Ackward's 30-06 loads (not to detract from anybody, there are lossa guys here who do the light speed thang very well). Use the biggest diameter boolit that you can get in your chamber, seat the boolit against the rifling, or just shy of it. 4831 ain't bad, but I'd go a little faster, maybe 4350 (do not go light reduced load with 4350!). Better consistency, better accuracy.

[giz189]

Dont see the point in "pushing" lead WHY ?? WW gc,d will run easy 1700 and that is fast enough Because we can. And no one else has done much of it. It's fun to mess with. I'm bored and don't have anything else to do. Cause somebody said it couldn't be done. No particular reason, but if some one wants to let them. It is his project and I for one would like to hear the results when he tries it with a different boolit and maybe a tougher alloy. Or he could paper patch it. More ideas, new stuff. Go for it.

[castblaster]

I'm sorry for bring this thread up, but i learn a lot when two people disagree. they pretty much answered my question, because I'm "Joe reloader". now i have some sort of road map to go by.
Post 11-20 were very helpful.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=38808&highlight=rpm+testing+311291

I just wish i could buy a mould that cast correct size bullets. yet another one, just got it today rcbs 30-180-fn drops .308 [smilie=b::groner:.

At least i got it from midway, cause its going back.
thats 5 returned moulds in one month. 3 lyman 2 rcbs. I knew better just thought i could get lucky. I'm on 5 group buys. things are looking up. :drinks:

I only have two 30 cal moulds and they are both 32 cal. lyman 314299 drops .312 and a saeco 305 drops .312, thank goodness for 32 cal

[303Guy]

Because we can. And no one else has done much of it. It's fun to mess with. I'm bored and don't have anything else to do. Cause somebody said it couldn't be done. No particular reason, but if some one wants to let them.My thinking exactly!:Fire:
For fun!:bigsmyl2:
And just to see if it can be done.:roll:

[Bob Krack]

The bear went over the mountain to see what he could see. Isn't that a good enough reason "why"?

Bob

[white eagle]

I hear the same thing when ya talk about pushing the little 45 colt
why ,why,why ?
good for you castblaster

[pdawg_shooter]

You may require a boolit with more up front support than the 299 is giving you. There is an awful lot of bore riding nose out there to go skew. I would look to a Loverin pattern or at least the 311284.

+1 on the 311284. The 311414 is great for high velocity too,

[Bret4207]

I'm sorry for bring this thread up, but i learn a lot when two people disagree. they pretty much answered my question, because I'm "Joe reloader". now i have some sort of road map to go by.
Post 11-20 were very helpful.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=38808&highlight=rpm+testing+311291

I just wish i could buy a mould that cast correct size bullets. yet another one, just got it today rcbs 30-180-fn drops .308 [smilie=b::groner:.

At least i got it from midway, cause its going back.
thats 5 returned moulds in one month. 3 lyman 2 rcbs. I knew better just thought i could get lucky. I'm on 5 group buys. things are looking up. :drinks:

I only have two 30 cal moulds and they are both 32 cal. lyman 314299 drops .312 and a saeco 305 drops .312, thank goodness for 32 cal

31 caliber actually, the 32's are up in the .321 area.

Were it me I'd back off on the powder charge a bit and see if, say, 2400 fps the groups were significantly smaller. Then I'd play with fit, lube and different designs. See if there's any kind of pattern or trend to things staying round and tight or spreading out wildly. Also- pay particular attention to boolit/case alignment. You want the poor ol' boolit just as straight as you can get it. No matter how hard your alloy it's dead soft compared to jacketed.

[milprileb]

The bear went over the mountain and did not come back.

Pushing lead may be exploratory but there is a limit on cast bullets
in rifles and no doubt the OP will find the rewards are less wonderful
by going on this trek.

I am not going to rain on your parade to do this but do let us know how
you get the lead out of the bore.

[sundog]

Castblaster, yessir, 21 gr 4227 and a 180-200 gr boolit (30-180-SP, #301, 314299, 311284, etc.) is a sure winner. At about 1600 fps.

Need for speed? Could be any number of things. Or, just because I can. Years ago I worked up a 30-06 314299 load with H4831 that ran well over 2K accurately. I suppose I can reproduce that if I want. Most of my range sessions are such that MANY rounds are fired, so I prefer loads that are both accurate and a little less heavy in the recoil department. Most of my shooting is limited to 300 yards. It only takes so much MV to get there. Besides, those large charges of slow powder consume resources ($$$) a lot faster. Still, it's fun to see just how hard the envelope can be pushed.

btw, I've never had a leading issue pushing lead really hard, if they were GC'd and a good loob.

[Larry Gibson]

Castblaster

"[I]so i loaded 5 more sat at the bench and put them on 100 yard target. the four that hit the paper shot 10.25".[/I"

Let's see; you go from .75" group to a 10.25" 4 out of 5 shot group (one bullet not even on paper). With that 314299 using 4227 at 1600 fps you were under the RPM threshold. You then jumped to a top end load with 4831 at 2710 fps and accuracy went south (to say the least)! Obviously that load was over the RPM threshold.

If a good alloy, a good lube, GCs and correct sizing then leading should not be a problem upwards of your 2700 fps. However, bullet design and the fast 10" twist are causing that load to be way over it's RPM threshold. I suggest you drop back to 40 gr of 4831 or 4350 and work up in 1 gr increments using a Dacron or buffer filler (until the loading density exceeds 80%) until accuracy goes south again. Understand that taking that bullet over 2000 fps requires in that 10" twist '06 will take proper loading technique to maintain any type of accuracy of 1.5 moa for 7 -10 shots at 100 yards with consistency.

The best thing you can do if you want to shoot naked cast bullets at higher velocity is to change bullets. I suggest a 311466 or the LBY 160 gr bullet. If you want to push 2700 fps with such accuracy the easier way would also be to put a 14" twist barrel on your rifle. Not to cast dispersions on your enthusiasm but I think you’re going to find 2700+ fps with a naked cast bullet that shoots consistent 1.5 moa 10 shot groups or less at 100 and 200 yards to be a search for the "holy grail", so to speak, considering no one is actually doing that yet. Keep at it though, we never know ……….

Larry Gibson

[leadman]

I used the 314299 in my '06 with 4350 powder to get over 2,600 fps with 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards. I used linotype boolits and heat-treated WW to do it.
Max rounds down range in this group size was 5 then the bore needed to be brushed to get the "debris" out of the bore.
My Savage 110 is from the mid 60's and has a very smooth and somewhat oversize bore.

It was not fun shooting these loads as they gave substantial recoil.

My go to load is 19grs of 4759 with 311041 for less than moa.

[pdawg_shooter]

The bear went over the mountain and did not come back.

Pushing lead may be exploratory but there is a limit on cast bullets
in rifles and no doubt the OP will find the rewards are less wonderful
by going on this trek.

I am not going to rain on your parade to do this but do let us know how
you get the lead out of the bore.

Or you could paper patch them. Haven't found a limit on paper patched yet.

[leftiye]

Bullshop got a lot of us thinking. That was groundbreaking (into the unheard of realm)! Bears a lot of attention. Uh huh. Resistance is futile!

[castblaster]

Larry
I have see the helix you speek of when shooting 223 tracers onto the feild at night about 25 yards out to see them bounce up (now damaged and unbalanced but still spining) and make the helix shap. its like a cork screw that gets larger the farther it goes out.

I think it may be posable to see the helix on paper by setting up several targets of thin paper in a frame, like pistol target frames. at say 50yd 100yd 150 yd 200yd 250yds.. then thoot a group till you get a flyer. the flyer if moving in a helix should moving around in relationship to the group. not just on one path leading away from the group.

as far as slow it down, I already have a good shooting load. Its just that i never considered hv till reading bullshops posts. why HV. well i heard others say it dont work. but i'v never talked to them directly so they could tell me why. so i have to learn why on my own, or go watch jersey shore with wifey(no thanks!!!) My first test above was to see if hv was possable without leading with no concern for accursey. with yours and others thories i will start working on reducing group size. and in the end if i cant then i will know why too.

How it all started: As a kid we had shotguns and 22lr and all was good. when i was 23 i bought my first rifle, savage 22-250 24" ss fluted barrel. No one ever told me that all bullets didn't go in to the same hole. so when they didn't i was distrought and down right upset. Now i'm the kind person that has to know why. so the learning started: the reading,reloading bench time and a crono. i would sit in the barn with heater on in the winter and shoot out a small slit to stay warm at a target that had a light with a car battery hooked to it. run back in the house load more test loads do it again and again and again. at about 2000 rounds i quit blinking, never even knew i was blinking. now when i shoot a coyote, i can tell in the scope where i hit him. If i hit him in the hip and it tore him up bad i saw red on his hip through the scope. thats how i knew i quit blinking. at 2500 round i quit keeping the 100 round bullet boxes and threw them all away and just started writing the next number on the new box. .38 is the best 10 shot group i ever shot with that gun, and i have every target in a notebook that i shot with that gun.

I made it to 38 with a 243 as my biggest gun. Hunt only varmints, coyotes mostly, I live in the panhandle texas. hade a 17 rem, 222,223,22-250,243, one of each. cant have two of one cal, too many special loads to keep up with.

now i'm 42 and need somthing new. jword kept me bussy 15 years learning why. I hope lead can fill another 15.

[dverna]

CB

Good for you. I don't know anyone who has fired a .38" group for ten shots. Heck I get all happy about getting 5 under an inch using J bullets. Some of you guys do that with cast - WOW.

Maybe that is why I like shooting pistols and shotguns more than rifles. MUCH easier to get a good load with them. Not as painful as a 200 gr bullet at 2700 fps either - LOL.

Hard to believe you did not leading at that speed. Keep us posted. I am too lazy to do the work so I am interested in what others are doing. Why reinvent the wheel - right?

There are a number of very talanted guys on this forum. They may save you some time.

Don