Data for 358-158-RF

[Nightfisher]

I need help on a load data for the Lee 358-158-RF cast bullet being used in a Marlin 336LTD 35 Remington. This is a supposed to be a pistol bullet but plan on using it in the rifle. Has anyone used this bullet in a rifle before and what kind of luck did you have with it? The load data that I have will be running it too fast and I need to keep it down at 1200 to 1400 Fps. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Nightfisher

[imashooter2]

You could back out of these a little bit...

http://alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeDetail.aspx?title=Silhouette%20Load&gtypeid=4&weight=158&shellid=1038&bulletid=127

[35remington]

Just a few loads with this bullet to run down.

8.0 Unique 1290 f/s
15.0 SR (IMR) 4759 1610 fps (too fast)
12.0 4759 1250 f/s a little sooty, but a good shooter
14.0 XMP 5744 1205 f/s fair amount unburned powder
17.0 Reloder 7 1220 f/s
16.5 5744 1380 f/s
11.5 4759 1150 f/s
15.0 H4198 1145 f/s
9.0 W231 1395 f/s

The accuracy you'll obtain is more rifle dependent than load dependent as long as it's reasonable and doesn't push the bullet too fast. My short throat 336 does quite well with most of these. My newer, longer throat 336 does not, and requires a bit more fussing around to get it to shoot. Try dacron if you wish, as it does cut down on the sootiness of some of the load combinations. Unique and 231 are quite clean burning.

Most combinations are low enough in pressure that wheelweights won't bump up.

I seat to engrave lightly but of course not so much that I'll pull bullets if I eject unfired rounds.

A little more diameter than the Lee mould offers would probably help accuracy somewhat, not so much for the Microgroove barrels these have (as they are within spec) but for the iffy throats and generous chamber necks. If you have the typical very short throat these loads may shoot well for you, despite that situation being less than ideal.

The 8.0 Unique load is my cold weather small game load in my older short throat 336.

[Nightfisher]

Thanks for the response. imashooter2 I just loaded up a load with 28 grains of the RL7 just before making this post. I got the info out of the Lee manual but then realized that the 28 grains would be pushing the bullet too fast. I have made a load up with 17 grains of RL7 from one of the loads that 35remington suggested. I have never used light loads with filler. Could someone fill me in on how to do this? Thanks again

Nightfisher

[35remington]

I'd first strongly suggest you do a search on filler or dacron and see how the experienced guys use it and also whether you want to try it or not. See how BruceB describes the way he uses dacron, with the idea being to take up all the room between powder and bullet, leaving no airspace. Of the dacron users, consensus would be to use it with the slower of the powders mentioned-RL7, 4198, 4759, 5744, etc. 5744 is advertised as being less position sensitive than some others, which is partially true IMO. Try the loads without filler first and if they shoot well don't bother with it. Don't worry about unburned powder if the load shoots well.

Filler could be other things besides dacron-kapok, ground plastic shotshell buffer, etc. The idea is to keep the powder from shifting around in the case and causing swings in velocity from differences in ignition. The fast burners mentioned above seem to suffer less from powder position than some of the other slower powders. The filler can also act as protection for the plainbase bullet in reducing gascutting. It's an extra step, and the use of filler is a personal decision that each user has to justify for himself. I have had no problems in many thousands of rounds using fillers like dacron and shotshell buffer, but I also pay attention to most of the "rules" for its use. I am not aware these "rules" are carved in stone but those who employ them have had no trouble that I am aware of. As always, it helps to be informed before trying anything new.

The cleaner cases using filler are probably the result of a little higher and more consistent pressure and perhaps acting to prevent the gasses from getting between the case wall and chamber when pressures are low and the case fails to fully (quickly?) obturate. Whatever the reason, it does work sometimes. Whether it actually helps accuracy or aids the utility of the load is something only you can determine by shooting lots of groups and chronographing in varying conditions.

I personally stay away from the harder incompressible materials like Cream of Wheat and such, especially in bottlenecked cases.

[Nightfisher]

35remington what worries me about the light loads is when I first started reading on reloading years ago I read a story about a pistol blowing up on a man with a light load. I thought it was dangerous to charge light loads without filler.

Nightfisher

[KCSO]

I shot 12 grs of Red Dot with this bullet in my 35 Rem M8 and it was a very accurate load. I had to work the spool like a bolt, but I never lost a case.

[35remington]

Well, first you've got to define "light load." Is is really a light load or was it a double charge? Then you get into the whole biz about SEE, wave effects, etc. It's a can of worms that brings all kinds of opinions out of the woodwork. Most have never seen it and never will, and those who have can't document the exact cause.

What's ironic is that many feel the opposite need of what you just stated, which is "why use a filler at all?"

What I was getting at was that the use of filler is controversial, and you'll see much less resistance from some handloaders and cast bullet shooters if they were never mentioned. I use 'em, as do many others here. Read up, and form your own opinion as to their proper use, and whether you should use filler at all. My own preference has been stated and a little bit of why that is so.

I doubt the loads mentioned above really qualify as a "light load" that risks the blowup phenomenon, since load densities are at least reasonably high, but your statement does kind of put a different twist on it.

Regarding fillers and light loads, I would suggest not using granular plastic in any very light load (lighter than those mentioned) since in my experience loads developing very low pressures and using large amounts of plastic filler will not clear all of the plastic buffer out of the case, and maybe the barrel. You don't want a bore obstruction or any residue in the case when it's reloaded. The "rules" of filler use cover that, in that many express the conviction that it's only proper to use granular fillers when powders occupy most of the case capacity-as in 50 percent or more. Some say seventy, others something different. I feel better about using dacron if I need to fill more of the case.

So it may be that you wish to avoid charging a big case with very small amounts of powder. You can always use a smaller cartridge for that. That's how I'd go if you want the slowest and wimpiest. I don't think the .35 Remington qualifies as a detonation risk using these amounts of powders.

KCSO, I can say I never considered using Red Dot in that amount behind the 158 RF. Maybe I missed something. When you say "very accurate" what's your meaning-as in group size?

[Nightfisher]

35remington I have several questions that I don’t understand on light loads and I would appreciate your help because over the years , from reading what you have written, I have grown to respect your experience on the 35 Remington.

Question #1 is what would be considered a light load? I figured that 8gr of Unique would be considered a light load. Can this load be used safely without a filler? From what you wrote it can be used without a filler and the use of a filler is the preference of the individual.

Where can I find information on the proper use of fillers? I have checked my loading manuals and can’t find anything in detail, as of yet, explaining the proper use of fillers.

Thank you for your response.

Nightfisher

[35remington]

You'll find more here on the use of fillers than most anywhere I can think of. You need to do a search on fillers, dacron, buffer-this would cover the topic. You'll get information on the why and how. The Lyman #46 is the most recent loading manual and the only contemporary source I can recall that mentions the use of filler (dacron) in their loading data-and some here would have issue with HOW they did it! The way they presented it is contrary to some of the dogma here. I don't do it their way either, FWIW.

Light loads are a big can of worms. When we speak of it here it's usually in connection with small charges of slower powder in rifle cases, and less often using small charges of fast powder in pistol cases. It's these two that are most commonly connected to these mysterious blowups, pressure excursions, secondary explosive effect, whatever you want to call it.

Nobody here knows exactly how much credence to put into reports of detonation involving either type of usage mentioned above, or exactly how it occurs, or even if it does in fact occur. Given the many, many years of experience to be found on this board, that's a hell of a statement to make, but it's true.

Sticking strictly with this cartridge, I've used charges of around 3 grains of Bullseye or Red Dot behind a round ball or a light SWC of around 100 grains in the .35 Remington. That's a light load by anybody's definition. I'd really doubt that there's enough energy in that powder charge to wreck the gun no matter what happens. I haven't seen anything to indicate that reasonable charges of fast shotgun or pistol type powders do anything but respond predictably as charges are lowered to the level where the bullet literally gets stuck in the barrel. I think the only place you can get into trouble would be with, say, a load of 10-11 grains of of a low bulk pistol powder where the charge was accidentally doubled to 22 grains. The case is sloppin' full with that much powder, but I suppose it could happen.

I think the occasions where the light powder charges are fingered as the culprit in blowups occurs with usage in really big cases-45 Colt in handgun, large rifle cases, etc. Everyone who's claimed to have a problem supposedly claims they COULDN'T have double charged a case, but if something is possible, it probably happened that way. Remember the old saying that goes the simplest possible explanation is the most likely one? Could be the case here.

Discounting that explanation gets you into the theories that claim "overignition" of powder charges that have room to lie horizontally in the case, symmetrical/asymmetrical wave fronts that are caused by how the powder orients in the case, partial powder burning that pushes the bullet into the barrel, then the bullet acting as an obstruction as the rest of the charge kicks off, etc.

Who knows what they're talking about in this case? Once again, probably nobody. They're all theories.

All I can speak of is based on my experience, which is similar to a lot of other guy's in that respect. I've shot a lot of .35 Remington cartridges of all power levels, but of course my experience is not all encompassing. Nobody's is, no matter who they are or what they've done.

Here's my suggestion.
Pick a powder that has a good chance of working correctly if you want a fast burner. A flake powder (Red Dot, Unique, 700X, etc.) would be a good choice as it bulks well, reducing the chance of a double charge, and helping to ensure it is never located too far away from the primer to present problems with ignition. The powders themselves ignite easily anyway. Don't go too light on the powder charge-as much to prevent a bore obstruction as any reason for detonation. If there's no room for a double charge you can't have one. Check each case before adding the bullet. Don't go too slow would be another good rule to follow. If you want to shoot this bullet extremely slowly use a .38 Special revolver.

Now here's the hypocrisy in that last statement-I've done just that in some of my light loads-go very slow, that is. So slow that I was looking through the barrel to see if the bullet cleared out before I shot another round. That doesn't make the practice advisable, but sometimes we do impractical things to see if it can be done. I think a better thing to remind ourselves of would be that when pressures get too low, even fast powders can be unreliable in cold weather.

If you're using filler, go by how the experienced guys do it on this board and at least get yourself up to speed on the methods most likely to succeed. Make sure fillers do not intermingle with powder charges, don't use hard fillers or airspace between wads and bullet, and don't use dacron with powders so finely granulated (some ball powders) that they may sift through the dacron. Test all fillered cartridges by roughly handling fillered, bulletless cartridges to check for powder position shifts-drop them, whack them against a hard surface, etc.

If you do those things, you've done all you can.

[felix]

Don't say nobody here knows, because I do! ... felix

[35remington]

I have no quarrel with the theories advanced here, Felix.

You've mentioned it a lot. And I don't do those things that you have suggested avoiding.

But if you can do it repeatedly, under controlled conditions, with ballisticians from the industry looking on, write it up and have them distribute it. It would be most certainly long overdue. Hodgdon's position was such that they were still listing light charges of slow powders in big ('06 sized) cases with their number 25 manual.

I don't want to leave anything out, so I do need to say in clarifying that this issue is with certainty, not probability.

We can state what we think would be prudent to avoid. But even full time ballisticians disagree on the why.

Same thing with fillers. I've had guys claiming to have followed exactly the same procedures I use in their employment, and they somehow ringed a chamber. All I can do is relate my experiences, and that's all the further I can go. Bruce Hodgdon claimed to have fired many, many light loads of slow powders in the lab with many different cartridges with not a single problem.

So if I don't present both sides of the issue I think I am doing a disservice here, and all I can do is suggest that the new user inform himself as best he can. At some point this game does require some careful thought by those who practice it.

Some prefer to let others do their thinking for them; ballisticians say not to use filler, probably because they can't control the infinite conditions under which it will be employed. Many of those warning about its use quote the industry hard line. I ignore them in many cases; who am I to say I know best? The detonation theories seem to follow the same type of trend, but in reverse.

So consider it a problem that I have with absolute truths. We can still advise, even when we are not absolutely, 100% certain as to exact cause.

[Treeman]

Well put 35 Reminton.

[Nightfisher]

Well 35remington I appreciate all the help. I loaded up some with the 17 grains of RL7 without any filler and tried them Saturday along with the ones that I had already loaded at 28 grains.

The 17 grain load ran average 1226fps (you didn’t miss it by much) but was low and all over the board at 100 yd. The 28 grain load shot a better group but still wasn’t good. They ran too fast. It averaged 1860 fps.
I am going to work on the load and build up from the 17 gr. and see what it will do and also try some different powders.

Thanks

Nightfisher