220 gr bullet in 358 Winchester

[MDF99]

I've never loaded cast bullets for rifles and am in the group buy for the .360 220 grain GC bullet. What ballpark max velocity can I expect with this bullet and what powders should I be looking at? I have IMR 4350, IMR 4198 and Winchester 748 powders on hand. Are any of these powders good choices for this bullet in the 358 Winchester? Looking at a burn rate chart, 4350 is the slowest (probably too slow), 4198 is the fastest with 748 falling in between. Thanks for alleviating my curiosity. :drinks:

[NVcurmudgeon]

MDF99, if your handle is any indication, does it mean that your .358 is a Savage 99? I had one such and used these loads:

30.0 IMR 3031 220 gr. NEI 1657 fps
21.0 Al 2400 220 gr. NEI 1829 fps
26.0 IMR 4198 220 gr. NEI Not chrono
42.0 WW 748 255 gr. Hoch 2042 fps (this is close to the old factory 250 gr. load, and not a lot of fun to shoot all day with a stock with a lot of drop at comb, also 748 needs to be loaded in nearly full case loads or the cases may not obturate)

Accuracy of all loads was 2" to 2 1/2" at 100 yds. wth 2 3/4 X scope. Not bad for an 8 1/2 lb. rifle wth scope, sling and fully loaded.

[MDF99]

I would love to have a Savage 99 in 358, my rifle is an older steel receivered BLR however. Here's a quote from the book "Popular Sporting Rifle Cartridges" (1984)by Clay Harvey regarding ability of the 358 Winchester w/ 748 powder and its repuatation as being a short to medium range caliber:

"To make the 358 into a real hairy chested load, kick a 250 grain Speer spitzer to 2400 fps, which is not difficult with Winchester 748 powder. The 300 yard drop is 11.2 inches (pretty sure he's a got a 200 yard zero) and the energy left at that distance is a whopping 1928fpe! Thus with a hold just below the back line of a bull elk, you could drive a 250 grain slug carrying nearly a ton of energy into his lungs at 300 yards or a bit better. Short range? Medium? Buffalo chips!"

Thanks for the data I will make note of it, I have 2400 on hand as well.

[Trailblazer]

49 grains(full case) of H4350 and the RCBS 200 grain bullet which weighs about 210 grains with lube and check did 2031 FPS in my 356 Winchester(20" barrel). You probably know the 356 is the same case as the 358 except it has a rim.

30 grains of IMR4198 gave 1950 FPS and 4" groups at 100. 4198 would probably shoot better with a lighter charge. I never tried 748 but I think it would be a good one for full power loads.

[Slowpoke]

In the old days in my BLR I used the original AA 2015 BR to push the 225 Sierra to 2575 fps in necked up 308 Win case's, killed a lot of deer with it, nice bullet.

Used 748 to push the 200 gr Horn sp to 2500 fps, killed three deer, wasn't impressed with the bullet.

When you could still buy the Win. 250 PP as a component I would use them for my fire form loads with H -322 for 2200fps, killed a lot of rocks, stumps in the MTNS with it, always put a smile on my face.

My best cast loads used 4895 and 4064 with the 200 RCBS in the 2200 to 2300 fps range with necked up LC 72 match case's. I never had the opportunity to kill anything except a few jackrabbits state side. But did kill several Javelina and Feral hogs one summer just South of Aqua Prieta Son. for a friend of the family.

Good luck

[MDF99]

Has anyone ever fire formed 358 winchester brass by simply firing factory 308 winchester rounds in your 358? Doesn't sound like a good idea at first but then I don't see how it could do much harm either?

[waksupi]

MDF, I just lube the inside of the necks a bit on the .308, and run them up in the .358 Win die. Never lost one yet.

[jhalcott]

I was crazy enough to use 7-08 in my 358savage. The gun was intentionally aimed low towards the ground and still missed the berm at 50 yards. The cases were NOT fully fire formed though. I traded that short barreled gun off and regret it still. A former owner had cut the barrel to 18" and recrowned it.

[brian]

MDF99,
We're both in the same boat with regard to the .360-220 group buy. I also intend to use in a new to me 358 Win. So I am following the thread with interest. To the other posters, I'm curious what alloy, lube, heat treat methods (if any) you're using to get CBs up into the 2300 - 2400 range without leading. For some reason my velocity limit seems to hover around 2100 fps in most anything I cast for so I suspect an alloy or lube limit for me. Anyway, I am looking forward to testing this bullet out in the 358 Win. If you happen to stumble across a super 358 Win load with this CB design, please let me in on it too if you don't mind.
brian

[MT Gianni]

In the 356 with the LY 358627 215 gr I have had the best results keeping the velocity under 1900fps. This still gives me a very usuable hunting range. Gianni.

[trk]

Has anyone ever fire formed 358 winchester brass by simply firing factory 308 winchester rounds in your 358? Doesn't sound like a good idea at first but then I don't see how it could do much harm either?

I just formed over 150 cases from .308 to .358 by first annealing the necks (most were LC cases of unknown reloadings) and then expanding the necks by expanding.

[drinks]

Brian;
I shoot the RCBS 300gr GC, comes out 320gr with GC and lube, WWs , water dropped and lubed with LBT soft blue.
With 58gr BLC-2, I got 2500fps and 1 1/4" at 50 yds.
Also 52gr H335 gave 2400fps and about the same accuracy.

[Marlin Junky]

Brian;
I shoot the RCBS 300gr GC, comes out 320gr with GC and lube, WWs , water dropped and lubed with LBT soft blue.
With 58gr BLC-2, I got 2500fps and 1 1/4" at 50 yds.
Also 52gr H335 gave 2400fps and about the same accuracy.

Wait a minute... those are .375H&H ballistics. Are we still talking about the .358 Winchester? How does one shoehorn a 320 grain boolit and 58 grains of powder into a 2" case and still cycle it through a short action? When did RCBS make a 300 grain .358 mold?... I gotta have one of those.

MJ

[Pilgrim]

Rifle now wears a 22" Douglas barrel. RCBS 35-200, WW + 2% air cooled (213 gr lubed w/ GC) , lubed w/ LBT Blue, 44.0 gr. VVN135, ALCAN MAXFIRE primer (remember those?), reformed .308 cases, velocity = 2430 fps instrument, prolly 2445 or so muzzle velocity. Groups about 1.5" IIRC. Smacks moose right well. Penetration was 4' plus @ ~ 100 - 125 yds. Pilgrim

[Marlin Junky]

Groups about 1.5" IIRC.

At 100 yards? What is the rate of twist?

MJ

[Pilgrim]

Yup, 1.5" at 100 yards. I don't recall the twist but it would be a standard twist for the .358 Win. which seems to be 14 or 16. Pilgrim

[waksupi]

Duane, being a Douglas, it is probably 1-12. That is what mine is.


Yup, 1.5" at 100 yards. I don't recall the twist but it would be a standard twist for the .358 Win. which seems to be 14 or 16. Pilgrim

[Marlin Junky]

I'd really like to know because I just bought a Ruger Haweye which has a 12" twist and I'm starting to worry that RCBS 35-200FN is not going to shoot accurately when spun up this fast. I was going to shoot for 2400 fps with this boolit cast of ACWW metal alloyed with about 1% tin. It was going to be my Wyoming deer load.

MJ

[drinks]

MJ;
Finger was 1 notch to right of intended location, 200gr, actually 215gr with gc and lube, and it is a Handi in .35 Whelen.

[Marlin Junky]

MJ;
Finger was 1 notch to right of intended location, 200gr, actually 215gr with gc and lube, and it is a Handi in .35 Whelen.

Wow, that's a relief.

I'm still nervous about the 12" twist on my new .358 Ruger Hawkeye though. I just got back from the range and I can't imagine a better twist for SAECO 352 (248 grains checked; BHN 13.5) than the 16" twist on my 56 year old 336A. I'm looking at the best ten shot group I've ever shot with an iron sighted cast boolit gun... it measures 1.38" C-C and was shot at 75 yards.

Any of you .35 buffs that don't own SAECO 352 are definitely missing out.

MJ

[Pilgrim]

You're right...the twist of the Douglas barrel on my BLR is 1:12. I hadda go measure it. Pilgrim

[waksupi]

Wow, that's a relief.

I'm still nervous about the 12" twist on my new .358 Ruger Hawkeye though. I just got back from the range and I can't imagine a better twist for SAECO 352 (248 grains checked; BHN 13.5) than the 16" twist on my 56 year old 336A. I'm looking at the best ten shot group I've ever shot with an iron sighted cast boolit gun... it measures 1.38" C-C and was shot at 75 yards.

Any of you .35 buffs that don't own SAECO 352 are definitely missing out.

MJ

Well, with the faster twist, I have seen groups of an inch at a hundred. Don't despair!

[S.R.Custom]

Ah yes... few things in life have brought me the joy that the Saeco 352 has.

Well, actually, there has. But that's not a topic for polite discussion... :mrgreen:

[Paul B]

Yup, 1.5" at 100 yards. I don't recall the twist but it would be a standard twist for the .358 Win. which seems to be 14 or 16. Pilgrim


The proper twist rate for the .358 Win. is 1 in 12" That's the twist Winchester used in the Models 70 and 88. My Savage 99 and Browning BLR also have a 1 in 12" twist. My Ruger Model 77s (I have two) in .358 have 1 in 16" twists as doe a Kodiak Mauser in .358 Win. The Savage and the BLR will outshoot the three bolt action guns from the bech. I attribute this to the 1 in 12" twist.
At this point in time, I have done very little cast bullet shooting with the .358s. Frankly, I don't think a 1 in 12" twist will be all that big a problem with .35 caliber lead bullets. Results with what little I have done using bullets sized to .359 are at least fair. I'll be sizing the next batch with a .360" die and I figure that just might make a difference.
Paul B.