.58 cal Zouave

[badge176]

Having recently visited my first Civil War battlefield (Gettysberg), I felt the itch to obtain a period ML.

Today I stumbled into a Miroku replica (Japanese?) at the local gunshow, it needs a buttplate and patchbox assembly, but then I talked it down to $150. The bore is crisp/ shiny with no signs of fouling & no pitting, and the nipple is pristine (No dry firing mushroom!). My biggest hurdle will be stripping the blonde stain (!) and poly from the light wood stock (Maple?). It will get a dark walnut finish- maybe Aqua Fortis? I'm gonna guess that it was a kit that never got completed since the brass fitting are rough-ish and the steel parts (band springs and sling loops) are in the white.

From what I've read so far it seems like I ought to start with a .570 RB mold and patch combo to fit the bore, but has anyone tried the LEE .58 R.E.A.L. CB in a Zouave?

No I just need a repro bayonete, hanger, belt, cartridge box, cartridge box tins, cap box, Kepi, Tunic, brogans, ....:mrgreen:

[Tom-ADC]

Mine is an Antonio Zoli I haven't tried the Lee R.E.A.L. boolits been using the traditional mini balls with 60 grs of FFg rifle is a blast to shoot accurate. Haven't shot patched balls either so no help there.
I'm using the Lyman 575-213, 510 grain old style mini ball. Mine are 505 gr.
I think Dixie has spare parts for these.
Mine:
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL174/1021972/1908390/378903457.jpg

[405]

badge176,
Ya, Dixie is as good a place to start as any for accessories. Before buying a minie mold based on assumption it would be a good idea to slug your bore first to see what the bore dimensions really are. While any .58 cal minie will work (read... go boom and be propelled from the muzzle), one that fits right will allow you to get the best accuracy. There is lots of info and much discussion on this forum about such minies for the various rifled muskets. THe "Zouave" deisgn is a very good and practical one for modern shooting and anachronism.

There are currently some really nice accurate reproductions of the correct Zouave bayonet out there. The original bayonet for the Zouave has a heavy brass handle and has a more or less "yataghan" blade design.

[Hellgate]

You might have to do some "ciphering" as my zouave has 3 lands and grooves in the barrel.

Tom, My lyman mold 575213-Old Style throws a 437gr minie. I also have a 575213-OS that throws a 580 dia minie (haven't weighed it yet). My deer/elk load for the Zouave is the first minie pushed by 90grs FFFg Goex. Two deer so far.

[NickSS]

The Zouave is one of my favorite rifles and I have owned several starting in 1964 and have two today. Mine shoot well but a correct minni sized about .001 under bore diameter makes for best accuracy, I have shot everything in mine including RB and at least 5 different minnie balls. The ones that fit tightest shoot the best. Over the years mine have taken three deer for three shots not bad.

[2152hq]

Used to shoot tradtional style minie in a Zouave back in the 70's.
Bought a Zoli repro again last year and tried .570dia RB and haven't given a thought to using anything else. Outstanding accuracy w/ 65gr FFG and a thin patch.
I just target shoot and don't hunt anymore though.

But the minies and REAL are convenient and quick to load. They carry extra weight for knockdown too.

To stain the stock, I'd go the easier route and use an alcohol base stain or one of the other solvent based commercial stains like Laurel Mtn. They will give you all the color you want and no fussing with A/Fortis. Besides the stock may not be maple and the results with A/F might not be as nice on other hardwoods.
Some people use commercial leather craft stain also with good results. Feiblings and Tandy are a couple of names that come to mind.

[405]

To stain the stock, I'd go the easier route and use an alcohol base stain or one of the other solvent based commercial stains like Laurel Mtn. They will give you all the color you want and no fussing with A/Fortis. Besides the stock may not be maple and the results with A/F might not be as nice on other hardwoods.
Some people use commercial leather craft stain also with good results. Feiblings and Tandy are a couple of names that come to mind.

That's good advice. Aqua Fortis is a mild acid that is primarily used to enhance grain in figured maple. It's somewhat tricky to use and the results are unpredictable on certain woods.

[badge176]

2151hq - you fellas are right, I stopped in at Track of The Wolf and they figured that the stock I have is Beech wood and that Aqua Fortis would have turned it Pitch Tar mignight BLACK- not the look I was going for so I'm glad I asked before i wrecked it!!:grin:

[omgb]

I use the Lee target minnie in mine for the best accuracy. The REAL bullet is not as easy to load after the 2nd shot and it never has really worked for me. One caveot....resist the temptation to load heavy with traditional minnies. The skirt will flair and accuracy goes to heck pretty fast. 50-60 grains will get her done nicely.

[mtnman31]

I have the same replica Zouave rifle as Tom-ADC. I couldn't hit the broad side of daylighty using patched roundballs. It does pretty well using minie. I recently bought the Lee modern minie but have not used it yet. I have not tried the Lee R.E.A.L. I do use the Lyman 575-213 and it isn't always easy get perfect bullets from the mold. The mold is finicky for me. I probably just need to perfect my technique. It does well with the 575-213. Last time I shot it at 75-100 yds and was happy with where I was hitting. Even as the fouling built up, it still did well. As long as I could ram the bullet down the barrel it kept hitting where I was aiming. The 575-213 is common enough to find regularly on fleaBay and at gunshows.

As for the rifle, it is fun and I really like it, but it did come with a flaw. The rear sight is mounted slightly off center. It is mounted a little to the left of center. Also, the graduated leaves aren't very tight, they flip and flop on their own as the rifle is moved. I have to verify that the correct leaf is up before each shot. Regardless,, the rifle is fun to shoot and looks great hanging on the wall too. I say that because everyone always asks about the Zouave even though there is an M1 Garand and a Rolling block hanging with it.

I also tried loading it with Pyrodex. I won't do that again the fouling was a beast to manage. A different lube might have been better with the Pyrodex. It seemed to work so much better using real black powder. I have stuck pretty much to Goex 2F. For lube I use a homebrew of Emmert's that I hand lube. I made a lube kake cutter so I can pan lube the minies. Maybe one of these days, I'll try patched round balls again to see if I can get them to work a bit better than they did last time. Have fun with your new toy.

2152hq - you like the RB. I still have the .570RBs and figure if I try them again, I'll have to change the patch. What do you recommend? I was using a prelubed patch but don't recall the thickness right now.

[405]

mtnman31,
Not 'hq' here and this may not help with a RB load in your Zouave but I've had good luck with .015" pillow ticking patched 570" soft lead RB on top of a 1/8" felt wad over 45 gr of FFF. I shoot a 7 groove Zouave so how a 3 groove would like this load?.... dunno. Also, I swab between shots. I treat RB loads for the musket just like all my other RB muzzleloaders. A medium-tight ball to bore fit seems to give best accuracy as does a light to medium load of either FF or FFF GOEX or Wano- powder brand doesn't seem to matter. I too quit Pyro after a short trial about 33 years ago.

Oh and almost forgot... that flip flop dual range rear, even on the originals, leaves something to be desired. I replaced the flip flop blade with one I made. I played around enough with temporary blades I was able to fashion a fixed rear blade with an aperture peep that is set for about a 60 yd zero.

[badge176]

I am planning on having the flip leaves welded back to square and then cutting a square notch in the shortest, drilling a hole to peep in the next two

Yeh that canyon and stub sight arrangement blows, it makes WWII mauser "barley corn" sights look crisp and easy...!:lol:

[Tom-ADC]

Dixie sells a clamp on hooded front sight for the Zouave.

[405]

Since I have an original Zouave, I couldn't do any modification that couldn't be easily reversed without damage to the original parts. And, I think the repros are very nearly identical to the originals. To re-do the sights I removed the flip flop rear and installed a fixed blade with aperture. Because the POI of most old military guns is so high I also raised the front blade to lower the POI to a reasonable zero range. Incidentally, both the patched roundball and the N-S minie shoot to very nearly the same POI at ranges out to about 100 yds with the mild loads I shoot.

The first photo is the rear sight set-up. I removed the original flip flop and stored it as an original part for the Zouave. Very simple to remove... single small, long threaded srew.

The second photo is the front taller blade. Using a hacksaw and narrow file simply fashioned a "Y" shaped piece of mild sheet steel then JB'd it directly to the front "barley corn". To remove- just add a little heat.

[2shot]

I shoot the REAL out of my Zouave replica all the time and get good accuracy until I reach about 12-15 shots then I have to wipe the bore down. 65gr of FFg and the REAL does the trick on targets or deer.

2shot

[405]

badge176,

Hard to say how your wood will react to different stains. I'd do small test patches to begin with. The Laurel Mtn American Walnut is a good choice to start with.

If you want to try to duplicate what the original Zouave wood looked like, I've add a pic of mine. The stock appears to be walnut. While many old stocks tend to darken with age and may have soaked-in gun oil from years of use and abuse.... some of these Zouaves were stored for a long time so many retain most of their original color and finish like this one.

I tried to make sure the wood color in the picture is close to what the color tone is to the eye in naural light.

[badge176]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=35298&stc=1&d=1314582040

I got a patchbox "blank" with all the hardware from Track of the Wolf here in MN and am expecting a Butt plate (please please please fit!) that I "won" on gunbroker (billed as a "Zouave" butt plate from a reputable dealer). Two new nipples, cleaning tools, a LEE Minie mold, a tin of fresh caps a range/ loading rod, pre-lubed patches, etc and I left with almost everything I needed (that's if I can get to casting, and find my stash of real BP).

[badge176]

I obtained a couple of appropriate molds, traded for samples from others and just blended up a batch of Emmert's BP lube (sub in 5% anhydrous Lanolin for same amount of Flaxseed oil- props to Randy Rat on his lube ingredients!). Dang if that stuff doesn't dive into your skin! Might have seen my last winter with cracked fingertips!

[kjg]

Hey badge good deal on zuove!! I'm going to be bearer of bad news , most reenacting units, won't allow, you to use that rifle , doing anytype of cw reenacting, because they claim, it wasn't issued during the war, it's b. S. But it is welcomed in the N-SSA and there are bunches of units, available to join the north south skirmish assocoiation will help you in all ways, this is one huge family affair of shooters from all over the us thier web site is outstanding and all your questions will be answered, curtiously and profesionally , lots of le guys there as well, , again enjoy

[badge176]

Yeh, I'd heard it wasn't permitted due to that reasoning AND its shorter length caused safety concerns when firing from ranks 3-deep. One of the fellows at Track of The Wolf mentioned some evidence that a MN or WI Fire Zuoave unit being issued these! How cool is that?!

[Fly]

Guys I have a question?I have thought about getting a zuove or maybe a enfeild.The
zuove seem to be had for less $$ then the enfeilds.Are the enfeilds a better rifle or
are they pretty much the same?

Fly

[cwskirmisher]

Guys I have a question?I have thought about getting a zuove or maybe a enfeild.The
zuove seem to be had for less $$ then the enfeilds.Are the enfeilds a better rifle or
are they pretty much the same?

Fly

They will both hold their own in the accuracy dept if set up properly. As for which one you should buy, it's a personal choice - the Enfield has a straight stock with virtually no drop in the comb, some have a difficult time 'getting down on it' to get a good sight picture; whereas the Zouave has a Springfield-like feel to it. The Enfield has a long range rear sight (ladder type), whereas the Zouave has a simple flip down leaf with a broad cut v-notch.

[ColColt]

I bought a Navy Arms Zouave back around 1973 and used 70 gr of 3Fg. Not long after this I went to a local gun show and met the CEO of Navy Arms, Val Forgett. We talked about that rifle and I asked him how much powder could you safely put in it using the 505 Lyman mini ball. He told me as long as you have enough room to seat the boolit!!!

I wasn't about to try that out but got curious and a friend and I went to the range with it. I loaded it with 90 gr of 2 Fg and it was rather stout. Then, I went up to 100 gr followed by 110 gr. I figured what the heck, Val said it would take it so, I gave it a double charge-140 gr of 2Fg. That was the last one as it felt like a 458 Winchester, couldn't see the target for a minute, the hammer re-cocked itself and I had a bruised shoulder. Crescent shaped butt plates are not conducive to a slight push. You do crazy things when you're young and foolish.

I still have that rifle resisting over the mantle and it's as good today as it was in 1973. Boolits were a PITA to cast due to the large cherry and size of the boolit itself using pure lead. I started buying them insted of trying to cast them.

[cwskirmisher]

I bought a Navy Arms Zouave back around 1973 and used 70 gr of 3Fg. Not long after this I went to a local gun show and met the CEO of Navy Arms, Val Forgett. We talked about that rifle and I asked him how much powder could you safely put in it using the 505 Lyman mini ball. He told me as long as you have enough room to seat the boolit!!!

I wasn't about to try that out but got curious and a friend and I went to the range with it. I loaded it with 90 gr of 2 Fg and it was rather stout. Then, I went up to 100 gr followed by 110 gr. I figured what the heck, Val said it would take it so, I gave it a double charge-140 gr of 2Fg. That was the last one as it felt like a 458 Winchester, couldn't see the target for a minute, the hammer re-cocked itself and I had a bruised shoulder. Crescent shaped butt plates are not conducive to a slight push. You do crazy things when you're young and foolish.

I still have that rifle resisting over the mantle and it's as good today as it was in 1973. Boolits were a PITA to cast due to the large cherry and size of the boolit itself using pure lead. I started buying them insted of trying to cast them.

IIRC, at around 100 grains or so of BP (not sure if 2 or 3F) the skirt of the standard minnie (575213OS) will deform leaving the barrel, ruining any accuracy. In the Lyman BP Handbook there are high-speed photos of the minie deforming with high-end charges. I think the thicker skirted and heavier 57760 held together at the same charge though.

[ColColt]

I recall reading about Val Forgett's safari using their then new Hawken Hunter and best I recall, he used 125 3Fg behind a 550-600 gr lead minnie ball...can't recall the exact weight but he brought down a cape Buffalo with it!! It was Lyman's 57760(I believe)I used with the thick skirt.

[405]

So happens I just re-read the Forgett article the other day. It's in the Lyman BP Handbook, 1975. While these muzzleloaders do and can kill such animals cleanly, while reading the article carefully, I noticed that accuracy may have been a little problematic with the big dangerous spp. The hippo didn't sound like a quick clean kill, the buffalo went quite a ways and it wasn't clear if the ML was the only gun used to finish these off. Also, the elephant had to be finished with a .458. The conical used for the buff I think was 610 grs.

BTW the article lists the weight of Cape Buffalo as easily 4000-5000 lbs. I assume that's a typo mix up and is the correct weight for large hippo. Oops

Interesing to note that in many parts of Africa, even today, locally made muzzleloaders, locally made powder and match head caps are used for poaching- since regular modern guns and ammo are either outlawed or extremely difficult to get. Even the cast bullets for these home made gun are primitive ranging from crudely cast lead conicals to cut pieces of rebar!:shock:

[Hellgate]

I have the article in front of me:
The Hawken used a 610gr custom minie and 180gr FFFg. The Buffalo Hunter used the same minie but with "only" 125 gr FFg (Dupont).

[ColColt]

Well, I was close. I wouldn't be hunting any of the big five without a backup 900 Nitro Express myself-preferably a double Paradox type!

[Newtire]

I obtained a couple of appropriate molds, traded for samples from others and just blended up a batch of Emmert's BP lube (sub in 5% anhydrous Lanolin for same amount of Flaxseed oil- props to Randy Rat on his lube ingredients!). Dang if that stuff doesn't dive into your skin! Might have seen my last winter with cracked fingertips!My wife really likes the beeswax and olive oil mix for her skin too. I can't remember if I put any lanolin in it or not?? It is tops for Minie ball lube I know. Now, if I could just remember who I copied that recipe from..

[quilbilly]

I don't know about the Zouave but the Parker Hale Enfield I had for many years shot extremely well with PRB which made me smile because casting mini's was a pain.

[Newtire]

I don't know about the Zouave but the Parker Hale Enfield I had for many years shot extremely well with PRB which made me smile because casting mini's was a pain.I have a hard time with those moulds that have the removeable pin. I did get a Rowell 1 lb. dipper and that helps with fillout of the Minie. Dipper is a tad on the overkill side so will have to try something a little smaller. Going to a couple of gun shows in Montana this coming two weeks so something good should turn up.

[jm951]

+1 on checking the bore size of your musket. I reenacted for a long time and used a Euroarms Enfield, and they have a wide enough range in bore size that, while it's "supposed" to be .575, I'd bet good money it ain't. Get a mold that drops slightly over size of bore, size minie to correct size, go shoot. Best lube I've ever used for black powder is 50/50 beeswax/crisco. Fouling is still soft enough that the 40th minie went down as easy as the 3rd.

[Newtire]

+1 on checking the bore size of your musket. I reenacted for a long time and used a Euroarms Enfield, and they have a wide enough range in bore size that, while it's "supposed" to be .575, I'd bet good money it ain't. Get a mold that drops slightly over size of bore, size minie to correct size, go shoot. Best lube I've ever used for black powder is 50/50 beeswax/crisco. Fouling is still soft enough that the 40th minie went down as easy as the 3rd.The Zouaves are Italian Olive oil, not Crisco. It voids the warranty otherwise??

[carbine]

newtire
try an RCBS ladle and drill out the hole for good minie fill

[jm951]

The Zouaves are Italian Olive oil, not Crisco. It voids the warranty otherwise??

Hey, this ain't a cooking show. Black powder fouling tastes nasty either way :mrgreen: