Care and Feeding of your Lead

[truckjohn]

I' am getting into hobby bullet casting, and I've read quite a bit on the board -- since it is about casting lead. I have some observations based on experience from work -- so I'll post my 2-cents

A little preface -- my plant casts about 1-million pounds of lead a week. I won't imply that this means I know anything about casting good bullets because of it -- we don't cast bullets.... but I am getting into it as a hobby to feed my Martini Henry rifle. We run 3-110,000 lb lead pots 24-7 and are installing a 4th in a couple months.

and No, our alloys are not bullet friendly. I am currently melting down wheel weights to feed this addiction.

Care and feeding of your alloy.

On fluxing, melting, and casting:
1. Pulling dippers up and pouring it back into the pot and stirring too hard is probably the #1 worst thing you can do to your lead. All it does is whip air into your super hot lead --
A. Oxygen in air quickly reacts in hot lead to form dross -- The oxygen stays soluble in the liquid lead until it reacts into dross.
B. Air is *WAY* more soluble in Liquid lead than Solid lead.

This means that all the air that didn't turn into dross comes out when it hardens -- causing porosity and dross inclusions in your Boolits.

Corrolary to #1.... You can successfully turn all of your lead into dross by doing nothing but stirring and pouring dippers back in.

2. Alloy contamination is much easier to PREVENT than it is to fix once it happens. This means that Zinc, Calcium, and other problem metals should be sorted out or skimmed as soon as possible. Once they are alloyed in -- they are really hard to get rid of other than by dilution (thinning the mix with good metal -- AKA "Throwing good money after bad") Zinc, Calcium and Copper are contaminants -- and should be avoided or strained out as quickly as possible. Keep those smelting pots running at lower temps and they won't melt in the 1st place.

3. Everything floats in lead -- except solid lead...... unless you have some Uranium handy. Clips, wood, trash, nails, Zinc, Aluminum, etc. It all pops to the surface as soon as it is loose in the pot. A simple solution to this is to *lightly* stir, let the pot settle, then very lightly slide the trash to one side of the pot just before you ladle some lead out for the bullet mold.

4. Dross forms faster the hotter you run your pot. A little dross on top of the pot is good as it protects your lead from air-- it forms back almost instantly when you break the surface. On bottom pour pots, a thick layer of powdery dross on top acts as a great insulator and protects the Lead from air getting mixed in -- and helps keep your pot at the right temp. Most flux materials help by burning off the oxygen -- which helps keep dross inclusions down. This is why the Boric acid trick helps in bottom pour pots.

Thanks

John

[Ricochet]

Thanks for the tips, John.

Work in a battery plant?

We've got a good sized Exide factory here in Bristol.

[grumpy one]

That was useful John, thanks. Any suggestions for keeping garbage out of bottom-pour valves?

Geoff

[arkypete]

Thanks John
Next time at the pot I start using your ideas.
Jim

[454PB]

This agrees with my experience, and is the reason I use a bottom pour pot and flux with Marvelux. I flux well after it reaches casting temperature, then no more unless adding more alloy, and I leave the dross and glaze from the Marvelux on the melt surface.

[truckjohn]

Thanks for the tips, John.

Work in a battery plant?

We've got a good sized Exide factory here in Bristol.

I work for a battery manufacturer..... but not in a battery plant.
Exide is one of our competitors.

Thanks

John

[Ricochet]

I figured battery makers are probably the only casters of lead on the scale you're talking about in the U.S. nowadays.

[John Boy]

John ... thanks for the Tips and Welcome. Never heard 'not to stir the pot' and didn't think about it's impact either ... until your post.

I'm a fan of sawdust for fluxing and insulating the lead. Have been using a digital therometer and it works so much better than a bimetal controlling the temperature

[truckjohn]

That was useful John, thanks. Any suggestions for keeping garbage out of bottom-pour valves?

Geoff

You found out why most high volume commercial lead casting machines are not bottom pour.

Bottom pour commerical equipment is a royal pain to keep the valves from getting stopped up or galled open/ shut. When the heaters burn out on your bottom pour valve -- the valve is soldered shut.

With my Lee bottom pour pot, I use sharp solid copper wire and vise grips to pop out the trash.

Best regards

John

[44man]

Truckjohn, now I know why I get such good boolits! I follow that pretty much and only flux and stir when I add metal. I then let the pot come back up to temperature. I also never pour out of the ladle and never stir with it.
I am glad you posted this, very good info.

[felix]

Just what battery is the longest lived on the market? Hate to change the subject a little, but I am tired of replacing these things every other year. Seems years ago I never had this trouble. ... felix

[grumpy one]

That seems like a big subject, felix. I'm told calcium-containing (maintenance-free) batteries are very intolerant of high underhood temperatures, which increasingly are a feature of today's vehicle designs - they are subject to thermal runaway. However modern vehicles also use huge current-draws and huge alternators, which only works if you don't do things like sitting in traffic with the engine idling and the a/c fan on max. Car batteries are not deep-cycle, and never have been.

A couple of years ago I had to buy a tractor battery, and I bought an old-fashioned antimony-containing one (that had to be topped up with water) of large dimensions, with lots of plates. It still couldn't toleate deep cycling, but it had a large capacity and could put out a lot of current for a while before it constituted a deep cycle. Of course one of the advantages of tractors is if you want a bigger battery, you just change the battery tray until a bigger battery will fit. Not so easy with vehicles.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Felix, the best battery is the biggest, heaviest, s.o.b. you have room for in your car's battery box. Just like buying a vise for your shop, when in doubt buy the heaviest one. A case in point was when the early Jap cars came in, they had tiny little engines and next to no accessories, hence their batteries had an easy time of it. Yet those old Toyotas and Datsuns had batteries of equal size and cold cranking amps to American big cars with 400 cubes and power everything. As an Exxon dealer, I sold a slug of batteries, but less often in the rising sun cars. I sold a battery to a Japanese engineer once and told him I had noticed just that phenomenon. His explanation was that Japan had gotten real good at making high power batteries when they were launching incindeary balloons to ride the prevailing winds and burn down the forests in our northwest!

[454PB]

Yup, I once owned a 1976 Toyota Landcruiser station wagon, and I replaced the original Yuasa battery when it was 11 years old. It was still working fine, I just didn't believe it could last any longer. That was one of the biggest batteries I've ever seen in a small vehicle. I still buy Yuasa batteries for my motorcycles.

[jballs918]

ok so what you are saying then is that stirring is bad. i yself have used a wooden dowel to stir and flux y alloy. not then i ski the top and let it ride until i have to drop more lead in. and norally i dont do more then a 20 pound pot at a time. so is what i doing a bad thing.

[tomf52]

If you are changing batteries every other year there is a problem elsewhere in your vehicle. I retired from UPS after 34 years in vehicle maintenance (sp?) and yes I do consider myself versed in this. On every preventive maintenance inspection we did there was a focus on the electrical systems as they were our biggest trouble area. A charging system functioning to it's max will keep a batt going for many years despite the severity of service. To accomplish this a complete voltage drop test of the starting and charging circuits (point to point of each cable or wire including from conductor cores of the wire to the crimp on terminal ends) must be done. I 've seen guys change altenators because they got output readings of around 13 volts only to get the same with the new alt. A later discovery of one or several high resistance (corroded or loose) terminals would bring the charge rate right back to where it should be. You also have have to test altenator amp output to properly diagnose and the system must be diagnosed with a known good battery fully charged.I'm not trying to sound like a wise a__ but I own a '99 and '98 vehicle and both just got new batteries for the first time this year and only because I got a deal that couldn't be refused. Both were still functional. Hope this helps some of you with your auto electrical probs. Also NOTHING but distilled water!

[Nueces]

Personal experience on the battery sub-thread. (We don't hijack here, right?) :mrgreen:

I've used nothing but Optima Marine blue batteries for several years. Sealed, so no adding, or checking, water. The stainless steel 5/16 top studs are very nice for adding power taps. Wally World has good prices.

It's important to put them through a regular trickle charge sequence, according to my country mechanic (and race boat, airplane and hotrod builder). So, I've wired up the Jeep with a hot socket to the Optima, and hang a small solar charger in the sun every week or so. The small charge tops off the battery in a way that the vehicle's charging system can not do. I do live in Texas, but we've been through some low temps (for us) lately and the Jeep jumps to life when started after a cold soak. I've also brought these batteries back to life after space aliens left the dome light on when I was off on a four-day trip. [smilie=1:

Mark

[Lloyd Smale]

the hell with all this battery talk where do i get me one of those 110000 lb lead pots!!!!!! A guy could cast for a whole day with one of those!!!!!!

[MT Gianni]

Lloyd, you could probably find the 12KV to power it also. Gianni.

[felix]

Yes, it would be nice indeed if we can hurry up and make these "electric" cars that can be plugged in over night. I am still mad at Baldor, where I worked for 18 years, for not aggressively pursuing that GM contract after delivering 10 sample motors 10 years or more ago. I really don't know what happened to that deal and there is no way to really find out. Most folks in that arena are (or have been) retired, and that was a hush-hush deal anyway. It very well could be that the current Toyota car had been developed by GM. ... felix

[44man]

OK, since Felix changed the subject, Why does my old 82 Chevy pickup refuse to crank (Acts like a dead battery.) when it gets hot. If I pour cold water on the starter or just leave it sit a while, all is good. This is the third starter and the only one I didn't have trouble with was the original but the housing cracked.
Even a 24 volt jumper will not work. I have cleaned all the connections and replaced the ground straps. All the wiring looks good.
If the weather is cool or cold, there is no problem. Is it the starter or resistance in a wire?

[TDB9901]

So as not to totally hi-jack the thread John, thanks for the great info.

44,
Are you using "rebuilt" starters? Many of them you get from automotive chains are not really "rebuilt" they are just repaired to the minimum to get them to turn.

I have repaired several hundreds of starters for our own company use, (our guidelines were just that, minimum to get them to work for a load or two on refrigerated box cars) and have had several come in with that complaint. The car started fine in the morning for the pre-trip check, but then would not crank after everything warmed up. These were candidates for complete rebuilds including windings.
Could be you've just been unlucky with your replacements.

[leftiye]

Lloyd, or at least for a couple of hours....

I use that technique of leaving about a quarter of a cup of that grey powder floating on top of the lead in my pot. Flux when it melts and pretty much forget it.

Truckjohn, You're saying that it isn't just the tin oxidizing that forms that grey crap on top of the melt, but lead oxide too? Could someone elucidate the "boric acid trick" for me please? I use a bottom pour. Thanks, Ted

[leftiye]

44 man, Engines that are tightly built (non racing engines) get tight to crank when they're hot. You can test this out by "jumping" the battery and see if it starts. This is supposing that the hot engine has a good, fully charged battery. Some hot engines sieze up completely until cooled.

[R.M.]

44man

Is the solenoid on the starter housing? I had one like that, that wouldn't roll over hot. Seems the contact rings in the solenoid were fouled up, and the heat made it worse.

R.M.

[truckjohn]

I think this may be a recent record for "Thread Hijack"

At work, we don't seem to have much trouble with Tin floating/burning out of the alloy. Some of the other stuff is not so soluble -- and it floats out while you watch.
Nails and floor sweepings are both good examples.....

About batteries....
Which battery is the "Right One?".... that is kinda like "Which gun is the best one"
They are all the right one.... for something.

If you are going through a battery a year in your car-- something is wrong.

You might have the wrong type battery -- if you have a newer BMW, Mercedes, or VW, you might need one of the new VRLA type batteries (like an Optima, Hawker, Varta, etc.) They run at higher voltages -- which the new European cars seem to like.

Electrical problem in your car? Bad alternator voltage regulator -- running 21 volts at 3,000 RPM will do a battery in. Electrical thingys in the car not shutting down right does it too.....

Then there is recreational lifestyle....
Do you spend weekends out at the lake -- pulling the battery out of the car to run the Jet Ski? Winch the 4x4 up a mountain or out of a swamp? Running your 700 watt Stereo all night out at the beach? Welding with batteries?

Then there is brand/price. Buy a cheap 18 month battery, you get 2-years out of it -- be happy.

You get the idea....

Best regards

John

[Ricochet]

Hey Truckjohn, I've read that the newer battery grid alloys with calcium aren't supposed to be bullet friendly, as you said. How come?

[truckjohn]

Hey Truckjohn, I've read that the newer battery grid alloys with calcium aren't supposed to be bullet friendly, as you said. How come?

It is true... send all those dead car batteries back to the auto parts stores, get yer $5.00 deposit back, and use it to hunt up wheel weights.

Calcium alloys + Antimony/Arsenic alloys do NOT play nice.

Stay away from them unless you don't want to touch an Antimonial alloy to your pot.
1. Mixing it Produces large quantities of toxic gasses.
2. Just a teeny bit of CA lead will "Poision your Pot" -- turn it into a slushy mess real quick that won't cast worth a damn....
3. Calcium is not really soluble in lead -- more like an emulsion (Oil + Water)
4. A couple hundred PPM (Parts per Million) causes problems.... Yes, this means don't wash out your lead pot with hard well water....

Hope this helps.

John

[imashooter2]

OK, since Felix changed the subject, Why does my old 82 Chevy pickup refuse to crank (Acts like a dead battery.) when it gets hot. If I pour cold water on the starter or just leave it sit a while, all is good. This is the third starter and the only one I didn't have trouble with was the original but the housing cracked.
Even a 24 volt jumper will not work. I have cleaned all the connections and replaced the ground straps. All the wiring looks good.
If the weather is cool or cold, there is no problem. Is it the starter or resistance in a wire?

Chevrolet sells a heat shield for your solenoid that will usually make the problem go away. Alternately, you can add a remote solenoid kit (uses a Ford type solenoid). I've had to do that on a couple of header equipped street and strip vehicles.

[Nueces]

Truckjohn, your #4 made me sit right up and listen. I can see my well head as I type, and, even after softening, we sometimes get chalk in the sink. I will be most careful, and, thank you, Sir, for your insight.

Mark