444 max loads

[Marlin Junky]

Is there anyone out there who can put a micrometer on a once fired factory 444 and measure the maximum head diameter? A fired case from an Outfitter would be most helpful.

Thank you,
MJ

[Canuck Bob]

I measured some old once fired 265 Remington loads from the 80s. I know it is once fired as it has the factory primers still. I only bought the 265 stuff or loaded the 265 Hornady. I remember the Remington Factory 265 load was not whimpy by any standard. It kicked harder than my handloads which were manual maxs back then. Shot in a tight 1974 444S MG barrel.

EDIT: It bothered me the spreads I got so I found that I had two lots of ammo based on the magnified headstamp. So i seperated out 16 with identical headstamps for amore accurate sampling.

In sixteen I got a range of .4686 to .4694 on my Moore and Wright micrometer. Measuring the largest size of the expanded case ring like Ken waters does.

The average came out at .4687/8.

[Marlin Junky]

So the same load fired from once fired factory brass would create what diameter in the head region?

Today I got about .4695" maximum from a charge of 48 grains of 2230-C and a 344 grain boolit. QuickLoad says the round should have run through the chronograph at 1847 with canister 2230 at 36.5K PSI. The single round with 2230-C actually clocked 1848. The round produced about the same head expansion as 15 grains of HS-6 behind a 272 grain PB boolit.

Thanks for your interest...
MJ

[No_1]

When you say 2230-C are you speaking of the surplus powder offered some years back?

R.


So the same load fired from once fired factory brass would create what diameter in the head region?

Today I got about .4695" maximum from a charge of 48 grains of 2230-C and a 344 grain boolit. QuickLoad says the round should have run through the chronograph at 1847 with canister 2230 at 36.5K PSI. The single round with 2230-C actually clocked 1848. The round produced about the same head expansion as 15 grains of HS-6 behind a 272 grain PB boolit.

Thanks for your interest...
MJ

[Marlin Junky]

When you say 2230-C are you speaking of the surplus powder offered some years back?

R.

Yes...

MJ

[Canuck Bob]

So the same load fired from once fired factory brass would create what diameter in the head region?

MJ

I measured the region just above the brass web that is always the widest after firing about a 1/4" above the rim. I have no original loaded cartridges to measure the before and after. One thing about this measurement is the differences in lots of brass and varying hardness.

I use this system under Ken Waters directions in his excellent book. The main thing is I measure the unfired factory and then fired to gauge the distance it swelled. This way I never compare different lots of brass.

Please use my numbers as an indicator but I doubt it is valid for max charges using different brass. I'm also very conservative. I no longer load max manual loads ever.

Your software load dats does seem to confirm you results are consistent with the data. Waters always balanced case expansion and chronograph results for safety.

[Marlin Junky]

When I designed my latest 444 boolit (cut by Accurate Molds) my goal was a 340-350 grain GC boolit with a good BC to be shot from the Outfitter at a maximum of 1800 to 1900 fps. Initial testing has suggested that there are a few widely available powders that will break 1900 fps from the 18.5 barrel while keeping the PSI under 45K. I've found that one can get a few more grains of powder in the 444 case if they only neck size which in my case means setting the Lee sizing die so it just barely decaps. Under these conditions, the max. case diameter remains .4690-.4695" after several firings of light to mid-range stuff. After trying 46, 47 and 48 grains of AA2230-C (my supply is now gone) even the 48 grain charge showed virtually no additional case diameter over my light to mid loads of which the heaviest was a 315 grain boolit at about 1500 fps with 21-22 grains of WC-820. I'm looking to further improvements in this boolit design (e.g., a slight step down to the ogive from the leading band and a longer COL with mod's to the action) but right now my boolit weighs 340-345 grains ready to fly and it's .967" long (checked) with a .289" meplat (fits Lyman top punch#429 perfectly). The secant ogive radius is about 1.5" and the BC should exceed .250. Right now COL is in the 2.580-2.584 range and a loaded round slips through the ejection port without a hitch while using the factory ejector (Wild West ejector is supposed to allow another 1/16" of COL.

MJ

I just measured my single case that I used with 34 grains of 4759 (and the 344 grain boolit) and it looks like I screwed up with that one because it "mikes" .4710" all the way around the pressure ring. Reviewing QuickLoad, I see that 34 grains of VV N110 develops 47.3K PSI and 1868 fps so I'm going to venture to guess that my 1886 fps load with 4759 was pushing 50K PSI which is too much for the 336 action even though the case ejected like it was a light load. Other neighboring powders in the burn rate chart produce less than 40K PSI at 34 grains but N110 is closer to 4759 in terms of charge density; i.e., N110 occupies 89% of the case which is approximately what a 34 grain charge of 4759 does (I could have fit 35 grains and seated the boolit without compression).

[Hang Fire]

Just me, but IMO the .444 is one of those rounds that should not be hot rodded to max, especially so in a lever gun.

My experience with reloading for the .444 and Marlin goes back a few decades, that is a 1964 Toyota Landcruiser in pic from 1966. The Marlin was originally in .44 mag, was rechambered and reworked by Lucky Wade in Phoenix. Houten and Wade had come out earlier with the .44 Van Houten Super, a wild cat based on 30-40 Krag cases blown out straight. They were very unhappy campers when Marlin just basically stole their development without even so much as an honorable mention.


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/TANSTAAFL-2/img148-1.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/TANSTAAFL-2/img224.jpg

[Marlin Junky]

Just me, but IMO the .444 is one of those rounds that should not be hot rodded to max, especially so in a lever gun.

Are you implying that I'm hot-rodding it? I'm trying to stay within the 44,000 CUP (approx. 48538 PSI) maximum.

MJ

[Hang Fire]

Are you implying that I'm hot-rodding it? I'm trying to stay within the 44,000 CUP (approx. 48538 PSI) maximum.

MJ



Uh, you were the one who named the topic: "444 max loads"

[Marlin Junky]

Uh, you were the one who named the topic: "444 max loads"

Yes I was... and how does that title imply I want to operate the cartridge beyond its intended pressure limit? Isn't that what "hot-rodding" implies? Considering that I am experimenting with a custom boolit weight not typically employed with this cartridge, I thought it would make an interesting topic of conversation. Sorry my thread title doesn't meet with your approval; however, I think the moderators ought to drive your Toyota into the virtual canyon. :bigsmyl2:

MJ

[Hang Fire]

Yes I was... and how does that title imply I want to operate the cartridge beyond its intended pressure limit? Isn't that what "hot-rodding" implies? Considering that I am experimenting with a custom boolit weight not typically employed with this cartridge, I thought it would make an interesting topic of conversation. Sorry my thread title doesn't meet with your approval; however, I think the moderators ought to drive your Toyota into the virtual canyon. :bigsmyl2:

MJ

LOL, I was implying nothing to you in my first post, otherwise would have pinged you personally as above. Max to me means max, as in maximum, for you, maybe max means near max, or something in between. BTW, it might behoove you to be a bit more judicious with your childish outrage.

[Marlin Junky]

LOL, I was implying nothing to you in my first post, otherwise would have pinged you personally as above. Max to me means max, as in maximum, for you, maybe max means near max, or something in between. BTW, it might behoove you to be a bit more judicious with your childish outrage.

You got "pinged", as you put, it because of your malicious attempt to hijack my thread.

MJ

[stubert]

Why can't we all play nice?

[No_1]

Play nice Gentlemen. The thread does not have to go down the tubes because you disagree.

R.

[Canuck Bob]

Hey Junky,

I got a subscription to Loaddata and checked all the info. Nothing for that weight of bullet.

Lots of 300 grain info but nothing heavier.

If there is a powder combo you want to check out let me know and I'll pass on thier load data, most is published manuals or from Handloader mag.

Some examples of MAX listed.
265 Hor FP 50.5gr N120 2415fps... 22" barrel, primer not speced, Rem brass
265 Hor FP 53.2gr N130 2401... VV data

300 Swift A-frame 47gr H322 2026fps... Rem cases, 9 1/2 primer 24" barrel
300 SAF 50.5gr H335 1967... Swift data- test barrel
300 SAF 51gr H4895 2017
300 SAF 53gr RL15 2003
300 SAF 42gr RL7 2014

Hope this gives you an indication of powder performance that might help with load development of your heavier bullet.