Hi I am new here, question re leading...

[4570]

I have been around guns for a few decades.
And around reloading for about 5 years.
I load for hunting rifles and lots for my 3 screw ruger blackhalks, in 357.
I decided to get involved here cause I have just taken my shooting to a whole new level.

Have just recieved a new Shiloh Sharps, in 45 70, 30" barrel.
Also a nearly new Freedom arms in 454 Casull.

I have purchaced a good stock of quality bullets from a small casting outfit that I have used before. But the bullets are hard, BH 25.

In 454 I have bought 255 g, SWC BB, .452"
In 45-70 it is 405 g, RNFP TLG BB, .459"
Photos are on a web site. I could post a link to.

I have new starline brass.
For powders I have:
for the 454 trail boss, IMR 4227, universal, and a bit of 231
for 45 70 trail boss, varget, H 4895, and lots of accurate 5744

One guy was explaining that with the 454 those 255 g bullets will need to get pushed real fast, like over 1600 fps, to advoid leading. No fun, not why I bought the gun.

For the 45 70 I would like to build up some target loads 1100 to 1200 fps.
Maybe hunting loads too.

If sombody could steer me in the right direction please...

[selmerfan]

First step. Slug your barrel and find out what the bore diameter is on each gun that you're shooting cast through mics out at. With revolvers you'll want to know the forcing cone diameter as well. These figures determine the boolit fit, and boolit fit is paramount in preventing leading. I'd love to hear the "logical" explanation of why you "need" to push those 255s to 1600 fps to prevent leading. I shot a .454 Casull Encore barrel for many years with plinkers all the way up to buffalo-class loads. My plinkers were your 255 gr. with 7 or 10 gr. of Unique behind it, zero leading. But my boolit fit my bore well. When I was running the .454 the only two powders I used/needed were Unique and H110/WW296, but you may have success with others. I have zero experience with the .45-70, others can help you out there, and others will be able to help you more than I with the revolver scenario, I only have one that I load for and it's a Ruger NMBH .357 Mag, otherwise I run pistol cartridges in Encore and cast for smaller diameter rifles.

[3006guns]

Welcome to the forum and the world of fun shooting!

Here's a way to have a bit of fun when someone makes a statement like that. First, ask them for a detailed explanation. Then ask why all those 1866, 1873 Winchesters, 1800's Colt revolvers and the modern .22 standard velocity short don't seem to lead?

I usually make it a point to be running a patch through my rifle about that time, and having it come out with only a little powder fouling.....no lead. Then I ask them to look down the bore.

As mentioned by selmerfan, boolit fit (and a suitable lube) is everything. If you get into paper patching you'll start driving those "dirty" lead boolits at tremendous velocity, with the benefit of unreal expansion to boot.

And what does a box of Sierras or Hornadys cost these days? It's been so long I've forgotten..........

[4570]

The logic used selmerfan was the hardness of 25 as the reason for my needing to load these bulletts to high velocity.

Can I use thes hard bullets to slug the barrel?

How do you slug a 30 " barrell?

[Char-Gar]

I wouln't want to try and slug a barrel with a 25 Bhn hard bullet. it would take some major pounding to drive that thing through your barrel. You want pure lead to slug with.

You slug a 30" bbl. with a very long brass\aluminum rod or coated cleaning rod. Do not use a wooden dowel, or a bare steel rod. The wood may get stuck and that much bare steel stand a good chance of doing some damage to the inside of the barrel.

Shiloh is a quality maker and if you ask them, they can give you the groove diameter of that barrel close enough for your purposes. This avoids the long barrel slug. "Slug your barrel" has become the mantra around this place and very often it is not needed.

I also woud not want to shoot bullets that hard either in a handgun. They creates more problems than they solve. The fellow who told you to push those granite hard bullets as hard as you could to avoid leading, was not that far off base.

Harder is not better in most cases. Hanguns loads with Bh25 bullets won't obdurate/slug up with anything less than red hot pressure. Often this allows gas to do bad things to the bullets which can result in leading.

Fit of the bullet to the gun is important, but it won't cure every wrong thing folks do. Along with fit, a fellow needs an alloy of the correct temper (hardness) for the pressure of his load.

But you have those bullets, so load some over the powder charge of your choice and see what happens. Then you will know and not have to endure the various opinions (mine and others) on this board. Report back and let us know how it goes. The worse thing that can happen is you have a leaded barrel, and that can be cleaned out. I can't think of a better way to learn about bullet hardness.

[noylj]

Slug the barrel and the cylinder throats is always the first step.
However, in this case, the quality of the guns may translate into quality barrels that at or near the nom/min for the cartridge.
Wish I had that alloy to use to cut WWs.
If you drop a bullet, does it shatter?
Your gun will tell you what it needs. Nobody can tell you exactly how your gun will perform. If you barrels are near min groove diameter, you may be able to shoot your HARD cast bullets at lower velocity and not need the bullets to obdurate.

[Char-Gar]

noylj...hit the edit button on your post and change "****" to "slug". They are not the same thing.

[quilbilly]

I agree with several that harder is not necessarily better. BHN's of 12-16 will serve most needs and even that it rather hard for many uses. Just use gas checks if you need to go over 1400 fps.

[4570]

I agree with several that harder is not necessarily better. BHN's of 12-16 will serve most needs and even that it rather hard for many uses. Just use gas checks if you need to go over 1400 fps.

Agreed, however I have a few thousand of these bullets to use up.
Why do they cast so hard if the theory is we are better off with with say 12 - 16?

Anyway...
Called Shiloh and my sharps in 45 70 should have a bore of .458 and a grove of .450
My bullets are 405g and a .459 diameter.


thanks...

[noylj]

noylj...hit the edit button on your post and change "****" to "slug". They are not the same thing.

When I read it on the forum, it is "Slug." I would correct it if I could, but it sure looks right to me...

[Bob Krack]

When I read it on the forum, it is "Slug." I would correct it if I could, but it sure looks right to me...

If ya notice, one of the moderators did it for you.

Bob

[Wayne Smith]

The logic used selmerfan was the hardness of 25 as the reason for my needing to load these bulletts to high velocity.

Can I use thes hard bullets to slug the barrel?

How do you slug a 30 " barrell?

One, that's not "logic", that's an assumption offered without evidence or argument. Argument addresses the questions "why" or "how".

Two, to slug a barrel you need soft lead, most available is a fishing sinker, typically an oval with the hole in the middle. For your revolver chamber throats you can take six of your boolits and drive them through. If you have to drive them you are probably good to go, if they fall through you have a lot of boolits to harden softer lead when you start making your own.

Don't be suprised, from what you stated at first I think you knew you would not be satisfied until you make your own. If you have a lot of seasoning for softer lead don't despair, you will eventually use it all up and wish you had more!

Welcome to the madness!

[Char-Gar]

"Agreed, however I have a few thousand of these bullets to use up.
Why do they cast so hard if the theory is we are better off with with say 12 - 16?"

1. It is not a theory that we are better off with 12-16, it is a fact. I think 10-14 is a better range.

2. Commercial folks of all stripes will sell what people buy. There are so many folks out there than think "hard cast" means rock hard and harder is better, neither of which is true. But, that is what they want, so that is what they sell.

Elmer Keith used the term "hard cast" when talking about sixgun bullet hardness. But he was talking about 1-16 (tin to lead) which is butter soft compared to what you have. Folks have latched on to the term hard cast without understanding it's origin and meaning.

Commercial casters often vie with each other to see who can make and sell the hardest and most usless bullets. There are precious few commercal casters out there who use the correct alloy, but there are a few.

[montana_charlie]

Anyway...
Called Shiloh and my sharps in 45 70 should have a bore of .458 and a grove of .450
My bullets are 405g and a .459 diameter.
You heard that backward.
A barrel is bored and then polished. That established the 'bore' diameter.
Yours is .450"

Then rifling grooves are cut. That creates the 'groove' diameter.
Yours is .458"

If your .459" bullets will chamber freely after being seated in the case, do not size them down to .458".

You say you have thousands of 'hardcast' bullets to use up.
If you haven't caught on to the hints that have been thrown your way, those hard ones can be used to adjust the hardness of pure lead if you melt them down to cast your own bullets.
If you absolutely don't want to get into casting, I recommend you buy a new batch of bullets, from a source that uses 'soft' alloy.
Then, sell your hard ones to other members here ... who WILL melt them down into other useable alloys.


CM

[300winmag]

noylj...hit the edit button on your post and change "****" to "slug". They are not the same thing.
Thats funny, under slu* I was looking for a pic of the ex wife
Under slug pic of a snail. LOL
Just kidding

[4570]

:grin:
Well charlie I took the advice.
And bought all the casting gear.

I have some pure lead ingots, and some tin bars.

I have been advised to start with 30 to 1.
This came from an experenced fellow who also shoots and compeats with a shiloh.

So these hard bullets I am told will contain some antimony.
Should I melt them and use in the shiloh?

Perhaps best to sell them.
If that do not work get a mold for my 38/454.

Opinions welcome...

[runfiverun]

he is shooting bpcr i'd bet, they are after accuracy...
30-1 or 20-1 or something close are usually thier favorite alloys [for a reason]
they are booting them with black powder [which will influence your lube choice]
quite a few guys around here use ww type alloy in thier b/p guns with smokeless [20-1 is the same bhn as ww's] ish]
look at your load levels [pressure] and things will become more clear as to why the softer alloys are used in conjunction with a larger diameter boolit.