Cleaning brass after resizing

[trk]

I made an observation whilst anealing the necks of several hundered rounds of brass.

Holding the brass in my fingers, the brass got cooler when the neck hit the flame. Hmmmmmm.

Then I noticed the brass was fogged at first hit with the flame, then the fogged part cleared from neck to base, then the neck and shoulder would turn color (hit the majic temperature) and I'd drop them in the water.

Once in a while I'd get a small flame from inside the case.

AAAAH HA! Too much case lube still on the cases. AND they'd been tumbled clean!

SO here's the question - two part:

a) what do y'all do routinely for cleaning after resizing?

b) is it not logical to assume that the occasional one with a little more lube left inside would shoot a little differently? (Much the same principle as damp wood may burn but slowly from the cooling of the water.)

[44man]

The ideal is minimum sizing so the expander does not need any lube and just pulls out with a small amount of pressure. Better yet are the Redding collar dies where you do not need an expander at all. Sizing too much so the expander needs lube and a lot of force to pull out will also bend the shoulders and give you a lot of runout. Almost all factory dies size the necks too much and should be lapped out. The least amount of brass working will also need less annealing.

[mike in co]

i wash small batches, sometimes in a solvent, sometimes just hot water and soap. this is rifle brass. rinse till no soap bubbles left..then either oven or small hair drier to dry them.

[grumpy one]

I think you need an integrated solution - you can't pick individual items from the two schools of thought, which are: option A, clean the case completely; and option B, minimize the work and disturbance to the case as a system.

I follow option B, which means I try to keep contaminants away from the inside of the case, but never clean it. The process is simple: wipe exterior of fired case with cloth, to keep grit out of the sizing die. Roll tapered part of case exterior on very lightly lubed lube pad, keeping neck area out of contact. Push interior of case neck vigorously three times over nylon brush to remove old lube and carbon. Twiddle case neck around in motor mica (graphite works at least as well), tap case to ensure not much mica left inside, then push nylon brush wetted slightly with RCBS case lube 2 (the new water-soluble type) into neck. Size case. Wipe mica off case neck, and casually wipe some of the lube off the case body - there wasn't much there to start with. Swipe case through SAAMI-length gauge and trim if necessary.

The outcome of all this is there are very small amounts of case lube on the outside of the case. I don't worry about it: though it does slightly increase bolt-face force, it probably lengthens case life a bit. At cast bullet pressures, neither issue is important. The only lube that ever sees the inside of the case is some mica, which is inert, a bit of RCBS case lube 2, which the literature says is harmless, and my bullet lube, which is not harmless and hence I don't load them until a week or two before I shoot them. I once tried keeping a small batch for 8 years: 3 out of 75 misfired, which I consider unacceptable.

[44man]

It is all a tricky situation. Cast boolits with lube means any small amount left from sizing is moot. But cast means expanding more in some cases so why size more then is needed? It all boils down to the question of some dies squeezing the neck a whole lot farther then is ever needed. Why not size to the exact size needed for neck tension right at the start rather then trying to open the neck back up after squeezing it far too much? All you do is overwork and harden the brass and bend cases.
A lot of guys buy special expanders for cast but still use the original size dies. Counter productive to say the least!

[grumpy one]

44man, my theory is that you will get a more consistent neck tension if you get pretty much the whole case neck to yield when you expand it. If you don't achieve that, tiny variations in bullet size and case sizing technique are likely to affect neck tension outcomes. Most likely die manufacturers also want to ensure that a little wear in the neck sizing die won't result in deteriorating accuracy.

I agree that, where we are going to seat cast bullets with larger diameter than jacketed bullets, we don't need to neck the case down as much as standard dies to - but I doubt most of us want to keep separate sets of dies for cast and jacketed bullets.

[44man]

You don't need separate dies. I always sent my dies back to redding along with fired cases to have them lapped for minimum sizing. The expander still expanded but not near as much which made much more accurate loads without bending shoulders. Using a larger expander for cast would still apply less pressure. It is a win, win situation no matter how you look at it.
To make a die size more to allow for wear does not make much sense either. After loading hundreds of thousands of rounds, I have never worn a die. What does a bench rest shooter do? They don't expand at all, use special dies and an arbor press. Redding has taken the process to regular dies with the collar sizer. Change the collar to match what bullet, boolit you shoot and what neck thickness you have. No expander needed, even neck tension. Then there is the Lee collet die, no expander!
Sorry, but I do not agree that the neck has to be squeezed extra small so some piece of metal has to be dragged through it to make a bullet fit. That is totally counter productive.

[Bass Ackward]

Sorry, but I do not agree that the neck has to be squeezed extra small so some piece of metal has to be dragged through it to make a bullet fit. That is totally counter productive.


44ma,

Burnt my self with coffee over this one. This is coming from the guy who neck sizes 44 Mag brass in a 357 die?

I just spent a large portion of yesterday annealing and cleaning brass too. Far too long actually. And dies. Many guys pass this one right on by. But because I load so much cast, lube can AND WILL accumulate stuff and become abrasive.

But you won't catch me entering this discussion. No Sir. I will keep my anal retentive ways to myself.

A self inflicted accuracy competition last year with one who will go un-named, allowed me to lose focus and develop bad habits. My New Year's Resolution: patience at every step along the way before I pull the trigger. :grin:

Accuracy is the sum of a series of small, easily passed details. Minute details that may not mean much individually, but added together make all the difference. Funny how we then take short cuts on the areas we don't enjoy doing and then forever seek load development to compensate. :grin: It leads to the dreaded excuse, .... that was just a cast bullet anyway. Or close enough for government work.

Next thing you know you will start lowering your accuracy expectations. Oh God, Not that!

[44man]

I have to get you involved Bass, Where did you hear that I size a lot with my revolvers? They need neck tension and all I do is expand LESS, not size more. BIG difference! I also only neck size them until they expand too large to chamber easy, then I only full length as needed. And I do have a bench rest die for the .44 that needs no expander but I find the Hornady dies make almost as accurate a load.
NO, I do NOT use .357 dies on my .44!!!
I am going to accuse you of something, I think you are as old as I am! So you are excused!

[9.3X62AL]

My cases that get lubed for resizing get tumbled twice--once in "as-fired" condition to remove powder fouling and other debris, then a second time to remove size lube--this time in untreated corn cob media, and only for about an hour or so. I then expand and flare, and I see zero crud on the expander spuds.

On the subject of excessive resizing in mass-produced dies.......I got some enlightenment in the midst of my Glock 45 ACP project about this matter. In short, my RCBS 45 ACP sizer die (T/C) GROSSLY overworked brass, so I tried the 45 Colt T/C sizer and got a better outcome--.469" as opposed to .467". Factory loads showed .470"-.472" with bullets in place, and my castings at a confirmed .453" gave .472"-.473" loaded diameter. I used the Lyman "powder-through-expander" die (.450"). These fed flawlessly in 3 different pistols, and I should note that the 3 pistols showed fired case diameters of .475"-.476". There's no more "Coke-bottle aspect" to my 45 ACP loads, either. One of these is a very tight 1911A1 Kimber, and accuracy remained constant.

This prompted a review of sizing results in my H&I dies, too. I'm about halfway through the dies, checking as I use them to process boolits for reloading. Lyman dies are VERY close so far, using Taracorp or WW alloy--either spot-on or maybe .0005" oversize. RCBS dies are uniformly .0005" to .0015" oversized. Buckshot's dies are precisely on the money with these alloys. All measurements were taken from random samples after sizing and lubing with Javelina.

My micrometer and caliper are becoming my most-consulted tools on the loading bench these days. Formerly, these were dragged out to diagnose problems--now, they're being used to predict and/or prevent issues. Retirement enables more leisurely and thorough assessment, a thing not possible as a pager servant.

[Nueces]

'Pager servant', I like that.

Drowned out the falling-water sound of the galena stream, huh?

[9.3X62AL]

It sure did--on "audible" or "silent" mode. Trout streams, too. Upon retirement, I returned the evil device to my service provider (labor union), and the young girl that handles such things seemed surprised that I was doing so. HA!