Tin and bullet malleability

[Blackwater]

I just got a little .380 Taurus, the M-780, and want to shoot it a good bit. A little gun needs to be wielded precisely, and that calls for practice, and at factory prices, that ain't goan happen these days! Soooo .... I'm thinking about getting a mould and getting it set up for hollow points. Not sure I won't just go with JHP's for carry and lead for practice, but can't help but wonder .....

Have any of you shot HP cast bullets in .380? If so, how'd they do. I'm thinking to get expansion, I'd have to mix WW's 50/50 with soft lead, and add in some tin to improve the malleability.

Would adding in 2% tin improve bullet malleability enough to matter? The Lyman Cast Bullet manual has an article where the guy found 6% tin was just about right for optimum expansion on deer & such. I'd sure like to avoid that much expense. I'm one who likes casting for the savings, but adding in lots of tin makes the cost rise pretty quickly.

In .380, I'm not sure I wouldn't just as soon have a solid RFN that'll feed reliably, and just settle for penetration. That little Taurus's trigger seems to promise some right fair shootin' - smooth and light, and a significant improvement over my old .32 Kel Tec.

Any experience/advice would be appreciated.

[lwknight]

A 380 is low pressure and low velocity. Bullets need not be all that hard so malleability is not a concern IMO.
Not really related but I will say that 5% tin will make bullets hold 99% weight retention in a 44 magnum and the bullet will turn inside out.

380 bullets are not going to do much no matter what the alloy is. Besided for practice , all you need is an alloy that casts well and is not too hard.

[Ole]

I fired some homemade hollow points from my Colt Mustang pocketlite into wet phonebooks:

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh280/Ole1830/Bullet%20making/HPranchdogbullet.jpg

Mold was Ranch Dog TL358 100 grain bullet.
Charge was 4.0 grains of Unique.
Alloy was 25/1

I was happy with the results. :mrgreen:

[Gohon]

I think those pictures are a perfect example of why you don't want hollow points for the 380. Simply not enough power for good penetration in cast bullets of only 100 grains. Probably down to about 90 grains after holly pointing. I have the RD mold and cast them for practice and just fun shooting with a Bersa 380 but I don't hollow point them and I won't use them for personal defense. I tried 3.5 grains of Unique but it just felt like it was beating the gun up to much so I settled on 2.7 grains of AA1680 for a practice load.

[Bret4207]

As a proud 380 owner I would strongly suggest finding a nice FN and not worrying about HP cast. You want to shoot a lot and HPing is slow no matter how you do it. At 380 speeds a boolit soft enough to open isn't going to penetrate far because there just isn't that much energy there. A FN that feeds reliably will do better IMO.

[reloader28]

I'm using the Lyman 356402 121gr cone nose that drop at 124gr.
I already had this boolit for 9mm and it dont shoot too bad in 380.

For normal shooting, I use plain WW and leave the boolit as is. For performance loads, I used 50/50/2% alloy and since this boolit is so pointy, I drilled a 1/8" hollow point 1/4" deep. I aint tried them in the milk jugs yet, but I figured with the shape of the nose, they will collapse INTO itself rather than expand and make a bigger, better, flatter nose on contact with the target. This should let it penatrate farther than a normal hollow point too.

Like I said, I aint had a chance to test these yet, but in theory, it seems to me it will work.:coffee:

[fecmech]

I'm in Brets camp with the.380 for SD. My choice would be 90-100 gr FP, push it hard and hope it gets to the vitals. .380's are sure nice little pocket guns since Keltec came out with theirs, I take mine almost everywhere.

[bowfin]

I aint tried them in the milk jugs yet, but I figured with the shape of the nose,

Looks can be deceiving.
The Speer Lawman .41 Action Express loads had a 170 grain JHP that looked like it would flatten out to the size of half dollar. That cavernous hole in the nose had me concerned,that it wouldn't penetrate as much as I would want. However, after finally catching a couple, (not easy since they kept penetrating my stacks of phone books and water jugs and sailing out the other side), I found that these bullets were the toughest things this side of Cape Buffalo hunting...

...and they didn't expand, even in sand.

I have to see it to believe it any more.

[gray wolf]

Shoot anything you like for practice, but for SD I would get the mot tenacious 380 rounds I could find---and shoot more than once.
Look at Buffalo bore ammo they make some hot stuff, perhaps they make a 380 round.

[Bret4207]

Fiocchi (sp?) used to market a nasty little FP 380 loaded European style, ie- +P+. Not sure if they still do, but it was a very effective jacketed load. I'll see if I still have the box and if theres a code.

[reloader28]

Bowfin, you got my curiosity up, so at noon today I shot one into the milk jugs.
It didnt do what I expected, but I was fairly happy.
I thought it would collapse on itself and instead it expanded.

In the picture is a plain boolit, then a loaded and hollow pointed round (the hole is the same diameter as the meplat), then the results.
I sized it .356 and it went to .390 at the nose.
Length was .621 and went down to .532.
I dont remember the exact weight, but I think it lost 2gr, tho I didnt see the normal lead slivers in the jugs.
This was air cooled 50/50/2% alloy.

This was at 18' and the boolit stopped in the 4th jug. The 5th had a hole it it, but the boolit stayed in the 4th.

I didnt chrono it, but according to the book it should be around 650-700 fps. I had already thought about switching powders to gain another 150-200fps. and now I'm going to give that a shot after seeing this.

[Bret4207]

The nose is more likely to expand than collapse in on itself because the air pressure is trapped inside the cavity. Some say putting a soft wax in there makes them expand more, hydraulic pressure in that case. Water can't get inside HP much because the air is trapped there when you shoot into jugs.

[Blackwater]

Thanks for the comments and insights. I've carried a small pistol every day of my life for 30+ years now. At first a .22 Freedom Arms mini-revolver, then moved up to Kel Tec's .32 when they came out, and I've been eyeing that Taurus for a while. The trigger's really shootable, and better than my little Kel Tec. I'm never far from a .45 or shotgun, so it's just to fight my way (hopefully) to a bigger gun and/or safety. A gun you HAVE beats one "Over THERE" ANY day of the week, and like I say, I carry this every day. Most folks don't realize they've never seen me when I was unarmed.

Thus, comments about the .380's "weakness" make me smile when I realize I failed to mention that I was moving UP in caliber from what I normally carried. ;^) Still, I know the Truth of those comments. I've always figured head shots with minor calibers were the way to go, and the only time I've ever come close to having to shoot in self defense, that's EXACTLY what I had in mind. Training is a curious and wonderful thing.

Given that head shots are likely (the trigger's actually good enough for that, with practice, of course) I figure the LAST thing I want is a RN boolit in the gun, since any sort of flat or HP will "catch" the skull even at a fairly shallow angle. That also minimizes the need for penetration. You just can't get a lightwt. boxer to do what a heavy wt. can, so you have to compensate in your tactics, like David did with Goliath. That's the way I'm approaching it, anyway.

The roots of my question about the cast HP's in .380 are founded in the fact that cast, through alloy and HP size, can be made to expand at just about whatever rate you WANT them to. In my experience, tin really helps HP's hold together. I used Lee's 358-150-HP for many years, and it always surprised me at how well it performed. With WW's, it'd act like a Nosler Ptn., the nose shearing off and fragmenting. With WW's sweetened with something like 4% additional tin, the nose held together at med-hi velocity, and penetrated a bit less. There's always a trade off there. Physics is physics.

I should be receiving my brass, dies and bullets tomorrow, and when I get a chance, I'll post some info on what I get. Got some hard cast TCFP's to shoot initially. Can't find a FP mould for it. The .380's no powerhouse, but I think its effectiveness CAN be enhanced, and I think cast is the place to find that enhancement. After all, lubed cast bullets give (usually) better velocity for a given bullet wt. and that's very welcome in the miniguns. This should be interesting, I think, trying to see what "optimum" winds up being in the gun.

If anyone knows of a FP mould in 90-110 gr. wt, I'd sure appreciate knowing about it. All I can find are RN's, which would be fine for practice, but I've never trusted them since I shot a fox squirrel many years ago with 230 gr. hardball in a .45. Not very good results there. Those fox squirrels are VERY tenacious in my experience, as are drug hopped up 2 legged varmints.

Can't wait to see what these FP cast do in the little gun. ALready have the feed ramp polished good. Only mod I see this little gun needs.

[Wayne Smith]

Miha made one not too long ago, I got one for my Mak. He made it in both diameters. You might check if he has any left or if he is willing to do another run. Check in the group buys, there may be one running, I don't know.

[NHlever]

I have a Lee 358-105 swc mold, and have some boolits cast for it from a 1-15 alloy, but I haven't had the chance to shoot them yet. That might work for your .380.

[HORNET]

Blackwater, you might want to click on the link to Ranch Dog Outdoors at the top of the page. He offers a 6 Cavity TL-358-100-RF for about $60 that should cast big enough to fit the barrel and should perform well. I used to shoot Lee 125 gr TC's ahead of healthy doses of Blue Dot in my .380, just below the level that would bulge the case into the unsupported ramp. It wouldn't make major power factor but was well into the minor range.

[Centaur 1]

Blackwater, you might want to click on the link to Ranch Dog Outdoors at the top of the page. He offers a 6 Cavity TL-358-100-RF for about $60 that should cast big enough to fit the barrel and should perform well. I used to shoot Lee 125 gr TC's ahead of healthy doses of Blue Dot in my .380, just below the level that would bulge the case into the unsupported ramp. It wouldn't make major power factor but was well into the minor range.

This is an awesome mold, I shoot them loaded in .380, 9mm and .38 special. I size them to .356" for the S&W bodyguard 380 and 9mm, my LCP and the .38's get sized to .358". Once I get on a roll I can cast close to 800 rounds an hour with this mold.

[Bret4207]

I have an NEI mould, a 35-85FN. Unfortunately their QC isn't the best these days I'm told.

[Blackwater]

Ole, thanks for the pics. Neat bullet and perfect performance. However, as Bret and Gohon say, I’m concerned about penetration. Since I believe most or possibly ALL “pocket pistols” are best applied only at very close range where head shots are possible with practice and a cool head, I’m a bit apprehensive about their ability to penetrate. There’s just not enough “oomph” there to risk squander any of it on expansion. After all, a nicely expanded bullet that won’t get to the vitals isn’t going to produce very desirable results. For most 2 legged varmints, it’d probably be OK, but there are too many 300+ lb. 2 legged monsters around for me to fully trust a HP, or at least that’s what I’m thinking now in retrospect.

However, I’ll probably produce some and play with them and see what they’ll do in my gun. They’d prevent overpenetration on a head shot, which is desirable, though. Maybe if I adjust the alloy to get SOME expansion with what I deem to be adequate penetration. Maybe that’s the “magic combination” here???

In the winter, I usually carry an aluminum framed 4” .45, but in summer when I can’t wear ANY sort of jacket, the little Taurus and my old Kel Tec and even the little Freedom Arms mini .22 offers at least SOME protection. I’m getting too old to tussle. The little .22, I fugure, is most effective, and maybe ONLY effective with contact wounds where the muzzle blast goes into the body cavity. That’s a factor that isn’t easy to always achieve, but again, at least knowing that CAN five at least some tactical solution to a very sticky problem. I guess the debate over pocket pistols’ adequacy will go on forever, but for myself, in my situation, I figure it’s the only really workable answer. Few reload the little ones, but …. I really think that’s a mistake. Nowhere else is the need for good bullet placement more critical, and the best part is they’re very cheap to load for – minimum powder and lead. Thanks for all responses. They mattered to me.

Reloader 28, the new #49 Lyman manual lists some 120-125 gr. loads at 900-950 fps. That ain’t too shabby for the little .380. Haven’t tried them but will. If they’ll feed, they ought to work as well as anything available for the .380. Those pics of your HP’d 124’s is about what I think I may be looking for, but again, on shallow angled head shots (read “near miss” here), I’m concerned they may tend to glance off more than “dig in.”

NHlever, that’s a bullet that I’ve been eyeing, and I’ll probably get the mould and size down to fit my chamber and brass properly. The tapered nose may (?) tend to enhance penetration.

Hornet, thanks for the tip. I thought Ranch Dog had ceased producing his moulds, and if he’s back in business, I need to get one of those moulds.

Thanks for all responses. They mattered to me, and all had some good points to make. This just isn’t an easy trade-off to make, but I think I’m more confident than I’ve been in the past with the .22 and even the little Kel Tec .32. Those calibers are what originally spurred me to consider head shots as the best approach with these little guns. They can actually be pretty effective when, as stated before, used with a cool head and backed up with good practice. They’re not as hard to shoot as some would have us think. I’ve made head shots on snakes with all of them. Moving targets are harder, of course, but they’re a whole lot bigger than a rattler’s head, too!

[runfiverun]

michael has been back up and going for a while now.

[Tom Myers]

[QUOTE=Blackwater;1369319]
If anyone knows of a FP mould in 90-110 gr. wt, I'd sure appreciate knowing about it. All I can find are RN's, which would be fine for practice, but I've never trusted them since I shot a fox squirrel many years ago with 230 gr. hardball in a .45. Not very good results there. Those fox squirrels are VERY tenacious in my experience, as are drug hopped up 2 legged varmints.
QUOTE]


You might want to check out Ranch Dog Mold's offering for the 380.

RD358-100-RF (http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_6_24&products_id=20)

[Bret4207]

I like that design better than my #109 NEI.

[Blackwater]

Thanks, TM. Only problem is I think I want SEVERAL of his moulds! It never ends, does it? ;^)