brass sizing down bollit

[redriverhunter]

hello all i pulled some .311 sized boolits today from the sized brass and the brass sized it down to .309 what would be the best course of action to maintain the .311 size

thanks rrh

[stubshaft]

Lyman M die!

[MikeS]

Hi. To give a proper answer you need to tell us some more info. What cartridge are you loading, how you sized the case, rifle or pistol, etc. If you're loading a bottlenecked rifle cartridge, did you just use a 'regular' 2 die set, or did you also use an expander die? If you just used a 2 die set, then the first thing to do IMHO would be to get a Lyman M expander die. The Lyman M die is specifically designed to expand the neck further than a normal expander plug, and it's expander has 2 steps, the first would expand the neck to just a bit below the desired boolit diameter, then the case mouth gets an additional expansion to just over the boolit diameter, allowing you to seat the boolit without shaving lead in the process. I would suggest that you do a search of this site for 'Lyman M die' for more info than I could give you in a single post.

The case neck thickness is also important. If you're loading for a cartridge that is fairly low pressure, with thin walls, like say a 30-30 then there's less chance of the brass swaging the boolit down than say a 308 Win which is a much higher pressure round, so the necks are usually thicker/stronger so stand a better chance of swaging the boolit.

These are a couple of things to look at / look into, I'm sure some other forum members will tell you other things to look at, that I might have overlooked, or just don't know about, as there are folks here on this board that know much more about reloading than I do, as well as many that can shoot better than I could ever hope to! There are so many different folks here, with so much experience between them, but more importantly (for people like yourself, and me) is that they're willing to share that info, and help out when somebody wants to learn.

[redriverhunter]

the cartridge is 30.30 wcf, it is full length sized with rcbs dies, it is expanded with a lee universal expander, looks like i need to get a layman m die thanks for the quick replies

[303Guy]

I'm not sure that full length sizing is a good idea. I do not do that. In fact, I don't even size the necks. Not unless I have to anyway. But then I have a lathe and can make my own stuff which means that just the minimal sizing without the need for an expander but if I use cases not fired in a particular gun or am using new brass, I have an expander for the purpose. Then again, I'm not loading for a lever gun. In fact, I shoot paper patched boolits which makes things easy cause the paper compresses slightly and holds the neck well with minimum tension.

For a 30-30 you could get away with just a snug fit if you use a powder that compleately fills the case and actually supports the boolit so it can't get pushed further down into the case. The trick then is to make sure the boolit cannot get left in the throat should you extract an unfired round. Again, with the 30-30 and its long neck that should be reasonably easily do-able. (I think?)

What rifle are you loading for and what boolit and alloy/hardness?

[redriverhunter]

marlin 336, the ranch dog TLC311-165-RF, and alloy is close to layman # 2

[randyrat]

Here is a good read. It will give you more on the subject of seating boolits.

Scroll down and read the section on bullet seating. http://www.levergun.com/articles/thoughts.htm

Most die sets have expander buttons too small for our cast boolits. One option I did, was to make my boolits hard enough to prevent tight brass from squeezing my boolits down too much....At least until I can find a larger expander plug.

I think most die makers make expander plugs/ buttons for jacketed bullets....... I did find a couple fellows here that make custom expander plugs.
deltaenterprizes, Buckshot. There may be more, forgive me if I left any out.

[KYCaster]

the cartridge is 30.30 wcf, it is full length sized with rcbs dies, it is expanded with a lee universal expander, looks like i need to get a layman m die thanks for the quick replies


The Lee expander just puts a flare on the case mouth, it doesn't change the neck diameter like the Lyman M die does.

Jerry

[Three44s]

Like everyone else ............ the Lyman M

Then I'd look closely at 303GUY's post and think about his methods and suggestions as well.

And for all my metallic brass I like a mouth champhering tool like Lyman's very low drag unit (VLD).

For high usage brass, I like to fine tune my mouth belling to just what's needed to minimize neck splitting and the VLD tool gives me less lead shaving but also with less belling needed.

If you get an M die .......... it's a two step affair ......... it will moderate the undersize of your just sized necks ............ and if you keep going it gives you larger mouths .......... it's the larger mouth that leads to more split necks sooner.

I have a turret press and have been even known to use more than one belling die to get a more subtle bell in all the right places ..........


Three 44s

[HeavyMetal]

Three44s and 303 guy hit the nail in the head!

Full length resize only when you get new "strange" to your gun brass! This will make sure it fits in your chamber. Heck I went as far as cutting the neck portion off a 30-30 die so it would only size the base area of the case.

Works great!

Using the Lee collet die I then neck size only, and only as much as I need to create some neck tension, use the Lee Universal to bell. With a custom decapping pin in the Collet die I get some outstanding results out of my 14 inch Contender barrel!

don't work your brass any more than you need to, 30-30's are very thin necked anyway, and your brass will last a lot longer!

[462]

The M-die is an excellent tool.

Additionally, don't overlook the seating die. They are manufactured to jacketed specifications and very often will swage a fat-for-caliber cast boolit to a smaller diameter.

After you get an M-die, load a dummy round, pull and measure it. If it's still too skinny, you will have to enlarge the die to accept your fat boolit.

[Char-Gar]

Yep, another vote for the M-Die!

[onondaga]

"M" will do it but so will a Lee Collet neck size die without the full adjustment.
if you need even bigger neck diameter you can get the .303 Brit mandrel from Lee and shorten it to fit the 30-30 collet neck sizing die. I do this with my 7.62X39 collet neck sizing die and Brit mandrel for my boolits that are sized to .312" and it works great.

The case mouths still need to be flared for boolit seating and I use the Lee universal for that. I don't mind the extra steps one at a time and my ammo performs very well.

Gary

[Bret4207]

Onondaga stole my idea, or I stole his! Not all dies are cut large enough for cast. The 303 dies work nicely for many 30 cals.

[beagle]

I've noticed the downsizing in both the .30 Carbine and also in the 9mm on pulled cast bullets. In both these calibers, it's probably not feasible to neck size as they probably won't function due to overall diameter.

I'd also venture to say that a .30/30 that was neck expanded large enough to accept a .311" bullet without squeezing it down probably wouldn't chamber.

IMO. it's like making sausage.....you probably don't want to see the process but it works./beagle

[longbow]

I found the same thing so made a larger expander button for my .303 RCBS die.

I adjusted so it only neck sizes but now has a larger expander button so the necks don't size down the boolit when seating.

I plan to hone/lap or ream out the neck portion of the die as well so it doesn't size down so far as it is just extra work on the brass.

Maybe the Lee collet die would be a better route.

For now anyway, my larger expander button has improved accuracy.

Also, I anneal the necks regularly so they stay soft.

Longbow

[caseyboy]

What I have done with my 7mm-08, is to take a 30 cal expander button, and turn it down to the neck size I want. The standard size for the 7mm-08 is about 0.282, I turned mine to 0.286 for my 0.288 boolits. These still get swaged down to 0.287 which works. My 7mm-08 brass is necked down 308 so the necks are thick.

[geargnasher]

Three44s and 303 guy hit the nail in the head!

Full length resize only when you get new "strange" to your gun brass! This will make sure it fits in your chamber. Heck I went as far as cutting the neck portion off a 30-30 die so it would only size the base area of the case.

Works great!

Using the Lee collet die I then neck size only, and only as much as I need to create some neck tension, use the Lee Universal to bell. With a custom decapping pin in the Collet die I get some outstanding results out of my 14 inch Contender barrel!

don't work your brass any more than you need to, 30-30's are very thin necked anyway, and your brass will last a lot longer!


"M" will do it but so will a Lee Collet neck size die without the full adjustment.
if you need even bigger neck diameter you can get the .303 Brit mandrel from Lee and shorten it to fit the 30-30 collet neck sizing die. I do this with my 7.62X39 collet neck sizing die and Brit mandrel for my boolits that are sized to .312" and it works great.

The case mouths still need to be flared for boolit seating and I use the Lee universal for that. I don't mind the extra steps one at a time and my ammo performs very well.

Gary


Onondaga stole my idea, or I stole his! Not all dies are cut large enough for cast. The 303 dies work nicely for many 30 cals.


I've noticed the downsizing in both the .30 Carbine and also in the 9mm on pulled cast bullets. In both these calibers, it's probably not feasible to neck size as they probably won't function due to overall diameter.

I'd also venture to say that a .30/30 that was neck expanded large enough to accept a .311" bullet without squeezing it down probably wouldn't chamber.

IMO. it's like making sausage.....you probably don't want to see the process but it works./beagle

Beagle, I don't know if it's a fluke or not, but I have a Marlin 336 and a Savage 219, both will accept .312" boolits seated in several different brands (thicknesses) of brass and still have about .0015" total chamber neck clearance with the thickest necks. Hel'll have to see what works for his gun with a chamber cast or chambering a lightly flared case and measuring it to see how big his chamber neck actually is.

Redriverhunter, I've done it several ways, but all are aimed at fixing the issue of loading softer .311" boolits in cases sized .306-7" on the inside by typical dies designed for .308" Jacketed bullets. The stuff I put in bold above is spot on advise and works great.

One way I did it is to hone the neck portion of my Lee full-length sizing die out to give me about .001" below my target neck tension (neck I.D. .002" under boolit diameter), then used an un-modified Lee .303 British EZ-Expander stem to pull it back out to .3095" after springback. I only run the case into the die so the shellholder is about 1/16" off the base of the die, that way the case body isn't sized too much.

The other way was to simply use the Lee Collet sizing die and don't adjust it to fully swage the neck against the mandrel. Haven't tried a .303 Brit mandrel in the .30-30 Collet die, but if it will work and not be too short to to the decapping at the same time that might be a good idea, too.

I finish with a Lee universal expander OR a Lyman M die, depends on my mood. here's my big tip, though: If you buy an M die for 30 caliber cast boolits in the .311" arena, DO NOT get the "30" die. Get the 31, since the 30 will leave the case .307" and won't do you any more good than the dies you are currently using.

Hope this helps,

Gear

[skeet1]

beagle,
I size my .30-30 to .311 and it chambers just fine in my 336. I have also pulled a bullet after seating it to make sure it hadn't sized it back down and it still measured .311. Bullets sized at .311 or .310 work great in Micro Groove barrels.

Ken

[beagle]

Way back when in the 60s. I started loading for an old M1903A1 Springfield using a Lyman .310 tool. In those days, Lyman recommended .311" for most of the .30s. That old Springfield would barely chamber it and after I managed a .310" die, things went much better.

I'm all for big bullets if they will chamber and that's the only way to go for micro-groove rifles but too big may be too much of a good thing. I know a big 429421HP I have when sized .433" and loaded won't chamber in my SBH without some effort.

I'm still betting that many of us are sqyeezing down 9mms and .30 Carbine like I was and maybe some of the other calibers as well.

I got a coffee can full of .45 ACP, .40 S & W, 9mm and .38 Super a couple of years ago. Part cast and part jacketed. I was unsure of the loads and having more time than money, I pulled 'em all.

The cast went into the pot and after measuring the jacketed stuff and finding that it fell short of the required diameter by far, I melted it down too.

So, even with jacketed stuff, the diamters suffers when loading and it seems to run in the auto pistol calibers for some reason.

Taper crimp die possibly??????/beagle

[popper]

redriverhunter I'm shooting the exact same combo, 336 30-30, RD .311 165 GC. I got the Lee necksizer and it works fine. I have some trouble with the shoulder not set back enough. Turn the seater plug around to use the flat part instead of the cup for seating. I use the Lee expander for flaring and put a slight taper crimp on it.

[geargnasher]

Beagle, always a good point to check chamber neck clearance, if it's too tight it's a good thing to know before firing and taking the neck of the case down the bore with the boolit, or worse.

Most of the time there is PLENTY of room, often TOO MUCH room between the loaded case neck and chamber neck, especially on military guns, leverguns, and most production hunting rifles.

Gear

[Frozone]

The answer is simple, I can't see why this needed two pages of responses.

Take the carbide ring out of your LEE FCD! That will solve all the undersized bullet trouble. :kidding: