Lee lead hardness testing kit!

[405 WCF]

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=731364
Anyone that have tested this product?
Midway Sweden has it on sale for 430 SEK, ( about 60 USD ).
Normal price here is 760 SEK, ( 107 USD ).
My wife said that she could buy it for me as a birthday present if I wanted it. :-D
So I would really know if it is worth the money!

//Olle

[454PB]

I have one. It works well, but requires either a steady hand, or a home made means of securing the microscope for steadiness. Do a search here for "lee hardness tester" and you should find all kinds of ingenious methods to assist in steadying the scope.

[JeffinNZ]

Just got one yesterday. Works well and told me a lot about my casting. WW a lot softer than the literature quotes but heat treated spot on at 33 Brinnell.

Here is a shot looking down the magnifier with the scale over an imprint made but the indenter on the surface of the flat filed on the bullet.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/JeffinNZ/Shooting%20stuff/IMG_0020.jpg

Scale is slightly off to one side but you can see it measures 0.070 inches which is 10.4 Brinnell by the chart.

Well worth the money.

[montana_charlie]

The Lee device applies a known force to an indenter of a specified diameter, and the diameter of the resulting 'dimple' is measured. This is the most technically correct method for measuring hardness.

As said, a good eye and a steady hand are required to accurately judge the dimple diameter. If you can manage that, you will get reliable results.

I suggest that your first readings be taken on an alloy (or pure lead) that you already know the hardness of. Then you can tell if your unit is properly calibrated...or if you need exchange it for a new one.
CM

[405 WCF]

Thank you for the answers.
I will tell my wife that I want one.:-D

[Ricochet]

I wonder if the action of filing a flat on the surface affects its hardness?

[tomf52]

Ricochet- I doubt it does as that is the procedure giveen by the manufacturer, Lee. Have one myself and it works great

JeffinNZ - Fantastic photography. What kind of camera.

To All - A stand for the lee hand held micrscope can easily be fashioned from a length of coat hanger wire and some electrical tape. Hold the bullet gently in the jaws of the smallest Vise-Grip pliers for positioning and you have a rock solid setup for taking an accurate measurement. This is how I do it.

P.S. - Use a Streamlight Stylus LED penlight for a light source. Gives perfect illumination where you want it.

[Harpman]

10.4 is exactly what my wheel weights are too, every time..seems to be perfect for Black powder cartridge loads.

[JeffinNZ]

TOM: Just a very "vanilla" Canon digital 1.2 mega pixel. A few years old now and my wife keeps making noises about upgrading but I keep saying "look at the photos, it don't look broke yet".

Took me an hour to get this photo though.

[405 WCF]

My LEE kit is here!!:-D
It's not my birthday jet, but my wife gave it to me anyway.
The kit works great.
My hunting bullets runs 15.4 Brinnel.
But I got a little confused.:???:
On the "maximum pressure chart" it says that max PSI for my bullets is 19109 PSI.
I always load my hunting to 30.000 + PSI in my 444 Marlin, and I have no trouble with leading or accuracy.
Anyone that knows why they set so low pressure?

[Ricochet]

I wonder what relation, if any, that chart has to reality?

[JeffinNZ]

Excellent. Now, like me, you will spend all you time testing lead instead of shooting it...........:-D [smilie=1:

Don't get too hung up on the numbers. I use the tester for monitoring consistency rather than too much else.

I don't understand the pressure figures from lee. Norm Johnson referred to the factor of a constant "480" x 3 x BHN for minimum chamber pressure and "480" x 4 x BHN for maximum chamber pressure in CUP.

Your 15.4 alloy then will have a min pressure of 22176 CUP and a max of 29568 CUP.

Starting to look more favourable now ah? :drinks: :castmine:

[piwo]

Does this need to be used with a "Lee" press? I went on the site and it mentions "single stage", read the reviews and one guy says you need a Lee press. I have neither: only a Dillon progressive press. I'm guessing there is a base that must be used, and the Dillon won't work because it uses the "star" to hold the cases??

Based on the comments about "the alternative", I'm guessing this is quite economical by comparison?

Depending on the disparity, I guess it might be worth trying to find a cheap used lee/and or single stage press someone no longer uses. :cry:

[Timb1]

Any press that takes standard dies.

[Ranch Dog]

I found one of the little Lee "C" presses for a couple bucks and that is what I use.

[drinks]

You can get the little Lee "C" press for about $17-20 most places and I have seen them at gun shows for $10.
I have tried a number of bullets both ways, first poke the nose then file a flat and poke again, never more than 1/2 BHN difference and it is easy to make that much of a mistake reading the scale, especially when the eyes are old and fuzzy.
405, if you are using gas checks, don't worry about the PSI.
The formula for yield strength is for use with plain base bullets, I have tried wws, BHN 13, in a .35 Whelen at 2300fps, guessed PSI of 35,000, with gas checks and good lube, they were good for less than 1 1/2" at 50 yds.

[R.M.]

Jeff

Are you aware of a formula using PSI as opposed to the CUP units?

[JeffinNZ]

From Hodgdon:

Q. Can I convert LUP (or CUP) to PSI?

A. There is no mathematics formula for the conversion of LUP/CUP to PSI or visa versa. PSI is directly measured by a conformal piezo electric force transducer. This allows for a direct reading of the pressure. LUP/CUP depend on piercing the case and allowing the generated gas to compress a crusher. The deformation of the crusher determines the LUP/CUP value. This is an indirect method of measurement that is less accurate at both the high end of the pressure range and the low end of the pressure range. Both PSI and LUP/CUP are accepted methods of measuring pressure in cartridges. All Hodgdon data conforms to SAAMI specifications unless noted otherwise in the data.

From http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscellk.htm

New statistical data analysis suggests that for most cartridges ANSI/SAAMI Maximum Average Piezo (PSI) and Maximum Average copper crusher (CUP) can be related by the following formula which has an R2 value (a statistical measurement of certainty) of .927.

(1. * CUP) - 17902.0 = PSI

While the relationship is generally within 3Kpsi (it assumes that the CUP was determined using ANSI/ SAAMI standards) one should not rely on this conversion for absolute maximum loads. This conversion is only applicable to rifle ammunition.

While the relationship is generally within 3Kpsi (it assumes that the CUP was determined using ANSI/ SAAMI standards) one should not rely on this conversion for absolute maximum loads. This conversion is only applicable to rifle ammunition.

Comparison of Pressure Specifications Between
Copper Crusher and Piezo ANSI/ SAAMI Specifications for .308 Win.

Max Average Pressure Max Probable
Lot Mean Max Probable
Sample Mean
Copper Units of pressure (CUP) 52,000 53,300 55,300
PSI (Piezo) 62,000 63,600 66,000
PSI Converted from CUP 60,922 - -

Interestingly the correlation between the European CIP CUP measurements and Piezo measurements has an even better correlation with an R2 of .997. The formula for the CIP conversion is

(1.20911 * CIPCUP) - 2806.88

The same warning about using this conversion for maximum load work and its being applicable to rifle ammunition only applies to this formula. too

For a detailed analysis of the origin of these formulas see the article "Correlating CUP and PSI" on RSI's Tech Information Page at www.shootingsoftware.com.

Don't know about you but I am no further ahead.

[R.M.]

Now that was a mouthfull!!!!!
I've been having problems with my bullets and a newly built .32 S&W Long barrel. They're just not getting along.
Using the Norm Johnson formula, my bullets are way too hard, which very well could explain why. Luckily, Accurate Arms lists their pressures in CUP units.

[floodgate]

R. M.:

Jeff's got the "Full Monty" technical details right; but in simpler language, "CUP" measures the distortion of a copper slug over the full cycle from zero pressure, through build-up as the powder ignites and pressure rises to its peak, and then drops as it tails off with the bullet moving down and exiting the barrel. As I understand it, "PSI" measures the peak pressure in the cycle. The relationship will vary with things like rate of powder ignition and combustion, bullet mass and resistance to engraving, etc., etc., and are not generally translatable except in a general sense, as in the formula Jeff gave - with all its caveats. You could think of PSI as being like measuring the distortion of a boolit as you whack it with a ball-peen hammer with a carefully-calibrated swing, and CUP as squeezing it in a vise with carefully calibrated force on the handle (note that the various Brinnell hardness tools and formulas specify how long the pressure must be applied). The strength of a glass-brittle receiver - like the Krags and the old low-number Springfields - would relate more to PSI, while a properly heat-treated chrome-moly receiver would be better specified in CUP. But, with modern electronics, we can measure the whole pressure curve cycle in PSI, which probably - and properly interpreted! - can provide more useful information.

Can you tell I useta be a phsy-, phyc-, fizza-, SCIENIST! (But have missed the last fifty years' worth of Continuing Education Units).

gateflood

[JeffinNZ]

FLOODGATE: Great explanation and analogy with the hammer and vice.

[Ranch Dog]

I have the RSI pressure trace equipment and find the formulas suggested by Denton Dramwell's Correlating PSI and CUP (http://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf) very predictable when working with my leverguns and the pressure range they operate in (mid 30.0K CUP/PSI through mid 40.0K CUP/PSI). In other words, I can take load data expressed in CUP, do the calculation, and see the same results expressed in PSI at the shot.

Here are the actual formula's Mr. Dramwell's paper suggests:

PSI = -17902 + (1.51586 * CUP)

CUP = (PSI +17902) / 1.51586

If you have MS Excel on your PC, here is a web page that will do the calculations for you... PSI/CUP calculator. (http://gunloads.com/fam/ranchdogmolds/Reloading/PSICUP.htm)

[R.M.]

How well do you think the formulas would work at mild handgun pressures (8-15K)?

[Ranch Dog]

I think they would be very close. Again my observations are based on my experience at the barrel using Load From A Disk to generate a load in CUP and reading the output in PSI on the pressure trace equipment.

I will note that I have recorded zero pistole' info as the only two pistols I have are autos and there is no way to strap the strain gage onto an automatic. I dream of a simple single shot barrel that I could test my 25 and 45 ACP loads....

[mag_01]

405 WFC---That Lee hardness tester seems to be the way to go.I will be getting one when spring comes around. As far as that # 19109 max PSI Is about 10% under The pressure that will start to upset the boolit (As Lee explains it). Which is very much in the ball park of the min PSI derived from 3x480xBHN which is 22176 (This is the pressure that will start to upset the boolit (Obturation) take 10 % less of that # and you have 19958----These numbers are not exact and very a little as stated by the authors. And max pressure the boolit can withstand is 4x480xBHN ( 29568 ) with the 15.4 BHN . Lee states that the best accuracy will be had around the # 19109 psi in this case . Not written in stone but a good place to start from. Hope this helps-----Mag

[OLPDon]

I have the saeco tester and a LBT both seem to have simmilar readings LBT is easer to use with these 54 yr old eyes and a ingot mold fits nicly under the probe. With the Saeco I need to take out the magnifier and use only use Boolits. Somethings I say to myself, (Self, keep it simple stupid).
Don

[fallout4x4]

and a ingot mold fits nicly under the probe.

Thanks Don, you answered my question before I even asked it. I got an "odd" ingot mold from a goodwill store that makes great little 2 1/2 lb bricks with a nice flat top but I didn't really want to mold bullets just to test them for hardness. I had been hoping I could put the ingot in there and test it that way.

[OLPDon]

Quite welcome fallout after yrs on the board I am finialy able help someone. My knowledge is somewhat lacking. But even that blind hog finds a nut.
Don

[405 WCF]

My favourite load for my 444 Marlin with my 350 gr MM bullet is 2034 fps out of the 22 in barrel.
That is a top load, over 40.000 C.U.P I guess, ( but still a guess).
Dont matter if I use water quenched or aircooled bullets, ( ww + 10% tin), they are both very accurate, and they give me no trouble with leading.
I size the .432.
If you look at the " maximum pressure chart" my bullets should have to be at least 30 Brinnell.
I think that "right size" is more important than hardness.
If the bullet is undersize, or exact size, the hardness is more critical.
Dont you think so to?

[charger 1]

My LEE kit is here!!:-D
It's not my birthday jet, but my wife gave it to me anyway.
The kit works great.
My hunting bullets runs 15.4 Brinnel.
But I got a little confused.:???:
On the "maximum pressure chart" it says that max PSI for my bullets is 19109 PSI.
I always load my hunting to 30.000 + PSI in my 444 Marlin, and I have no trouble with leading or accuracy.
Anyone that knows why they set so low pressure?

I would bet your running your boolits checked which basically throughs lee's max chart out the window

[Ranch Dog]

I think that "right size" is more important than hardness.
If the bullet is undersize, or exact size, the hardness is more critical.
Dont you think so to?

I think so...

The calculation represents a starting point for me in developing a load. If you are getting aways with more, then life is real good. Usually, I can shoot for a load that matches the pressure calculation and it will shoot good.

[mag_01]

I would bet your running your boolits checked which basically throughs lee's max chart out the window

DUH---Lees max chart---------May be hard to understand but Lee is talking about Min Pressure----His figures are 10% below pressure that will start to upset boolit-------Obturation----Ultimate compressive strength (just before boolit upsets) hope this clears it up ---Those numbers could be very helpful if You understand......Mag

[charger 1]

DUH---Lees max chart---------May be hard to understand but Lee is talking about Min Pressure----His figures are 10% below pressure that will start to upset boolit-------Obturation----Ultimate compressive strength (just before boolit upsets) hope this clears it up ---Those numbers could be very helpful if You understand......Mag


Why does the Lee chart say MAX PRESSURE?

[mag_01]

Charger I have to ---APOLOGIZE--- Lee dose say Max Pressure--But from what I get out of his writings his number is the max pressure the boolit can take before any change in the boolit occurs. Thus resulting in a mild load-- Have a good one ---Mag

[Sundogg1911]

mine came yesterday. (from Midway) It works great. I have some alloy, and a bunch of bullets (probably two 5 gallon buckets full) and about 200 pounds of ingots that I got at an estate sale. They've been setting in my garage for about 4 years. I'm finally able to test them. The bullets are soft. the ingots are almost pure lead, and the other alloy (a different style of ingot) compares to my Lino ingots. Yay! I can finally use the stuff! :-) this Lee tester works great! the only issue that I have is holding the microscope still enough (especially after 4 cups of my Wife's thick coffee!) I have a little desk lamp that I aim on the ingot/bullet, and it's plenty bright and easy to read. I would recomend it!

[snuffy]

It seems to work as advertised. I only used it on a couple boolits so far, it's a fight to keep it centered on the impression! I would say also it's eye opening, I was thinking my boolits were harder than they turn out to be.:???: