Interesting Whelen H-R results

[Marlin Junky]

First of all, the reason all targets don't have ten rounds in them is because I'm having problems with misfires due to excessive headspace. When a round didn't go off I wrapped some tape around the boolit's ogive to set the round back against the primer. Although this method worked to fire all but one or two of the misfired rounds, it seemed like a recipe for a flyer so I didn't try to place the round into a group.

The boolit used on all targets was SAECO 352 at 244 grains naked and 14-15 BHN. Hornady provided the gaschecks and the primers were WLRM. Lube is some homemade stuff that has proven itself in the 30-30 beyond 2100 fps. The distance was 75 yards and the sight was a K2.5.

Target 1 was shot with 32 grains of Surplus 4759. The average velocity for 8 rounds was 1989, the range 23 fps and the std. dev. 6.9 fps. The fouling shot (clean, cold barrel) went over the chronograph at 2037 which was 32 fps higher than the next fastest round and was not counted when calculating std. dev. The aiming spot was at the center.

Target 2 was shot with 45 grains of IMR 3031. The average velocity for 9 rounds was 2019, the range 36 fps and the std. dev. 12.2 fps. The aiming spot was at the center.

These two targets are bad enough as is but at Target 3, things really begin to get interesting.

Target 3 was shot with 50 grains of caninstered H380. The average velocity for 9 rounds was 2040 (2 of the 9 were intentionally NOT shot at the target), the range was 113 fps and the std. dev. 37.3 fps. The aiming spot was at the center... of Target 2!! When I posted my targets, I covered the entire cardboard with letter size sheets of paper and beginning with my H380 load, the rounds impacted way to the right and low.

The next two targets (not shown) shot with 57 and 58 grains of DP-85 were even worse than with the H380, spraying into a pattern way to the right and low with respect to the targets shot with 4759 and 3031. Was there just not enough pressure with the slower powders??

The boolit was seated out to touch the rifling and to do so the case mouth just barely covered the top of the rear driving band leaving all the lube exposed. The boolits miked .360" to .3605" (un-shimmed the mold drops a .3595" boolit) and the ball seat mikes .361", so I guess that could be an answer to the poor accuracy... but the shift in impact has really got me puzzled.

MJ

P.S. I don't think this presents a problem but I'll mention it anyway...

My chamber is pretty wide at the case neck (.391" OD) and after firing with my neck turned brass (I didn't turn them so I don't know how much was taken off) the case neck ID is about .363". Case necks were very smokey even with 32 grains 4759 and 45 grains 3031.

[NVcurmudgeon]

MJ, the surplus 4759 load looks very promising. How is the rifle to shoot from the bench with pretty powerful loads? My Whelen is a 9 1/2# bolt gun, so it doesn't get rambunctious until I load it with full-power J bullets. I see you have a 2.5 X scope. Mine has an old Redfield Bear Cub 2.75 X and has shot enough groups of 1 to 1.5 MOA to not be accidental. Plenty of scope for the purpose of a .35 Whelen.

[Marlin Junky]

NVcurmudgeon,

The 4759 and 3031 loads were actually pretty fun to shoot. The rounds loaded with 58 grains of DP-85 were not, as they cruised past 2200 fps. The recoil doesn't come straight back though so I'm not concerned about getting belted with the K2.5. I shot a total of 50 rounds with no bruising... I was wearing a sweater though. Actually a lot of the rifle's recoil was upward so it was pretty comfortable until I got to the DP-85 loads which were doing over 2700 ft-lbs.

The thing that bothers me about this rifle though is I have an iron Mountain Mold on order that I designed to fit the chamber and the mold itself is worth more than the barrel. I guess I'm trying to figure out quickly whether I should cancel my MM order (assuming Dan hasn't cut the mold already) and put the 118 bucks into something else (I got a top-punch too).

I really like the idea of the .35 Whelen, but these chambers are "outside the box"... at least for me.

Because of the recoil and muzzle blast with DP-85 I will try the faster burning powders in the 3031 neighborhood and probably shoot all fifty rounds with the same powder (hopefully with no misfires) with 5 different charges in one grain increments. I could probably fix the misfire situation and completely fire-form all my brass if I only had a Lee FC die for the .35 Whelen. I guess I screwed up when I ordered my MM w/o a crimp groove 'cause I figured I didn't need crimp grooved boolits for a SS rifle.

MJ

[NVcurmudgeon]

NVcurmudgeon,

The 4759 and 3031 loads were actually pretty fun to shoot. The rounds loaded with 58 grains of DP-85 were not, as they cruised past 2200 fps. The recoil doesn't come straight back though so I'm not concerned about getting belted with the K2.5. I shot a total of 50 rounds with no bruising... I was wearing a sweater though. Actually a lot of the rifle's recoil was upward so it was pretty comfortable until I got to the DP-85 loads which were doing over 2700 ft-lbs.

The thing that bothers me about this rifle though is I have an iron Mountain Mold on order that I designed to fit the chamber and the mold itself is worth more than the barrel. I guess I'm trying to figure out quickly whether I should cancel my MM order (assuming Dan hasn't cut the mold already) and put the 118 bucks into something else (I got a top-punch too).

I really like the idea of the .35 Whelen, but these chambers are "outside the box"... at least for me.

Because of the recoil and muzzle blast with DP-85 I will try the faster burning powders in the 3031 neighborhood and probably shoot all fifty rounds with the same powder (hopefully with no misfires) with 5 different charges in one grain increments. I could probably fix the misfire situation and completely fire-form all my brass if I only had a Lee FC die for the .35 Whelen. I guess I screwed up when I ordered my MM w/o a crimp groove 'cause I figured I didn't need crimp grooved boolits for a SS rifle.

MJ

No crimp groove on a mould for a SS rifle makes sense to me, too. I have yet to crimp a round for my bolt gun. With a full load of five cartridges I can fire the first four and see that the bottom round is not telescoped. Of course, maybe 57 gr. RL 15 is keeping the bullet from moving into the case! I have not yet used a Lee factory crimp die for fear that I might be brutalizing my lovingly cast and inspected boolits.

[Bass Ackward]

The aiming spot was at the center... of Target 2!!

Was there just not enough pressure with the slower powders??

so I guess that could be an answer to the poor accuracy... but the shift in impact has really got me puzzled.

My chamber is pretty wide at the case neck (.391" OD) and after firing with my neck turned brass (I didn't turn them so I don't know how much was taken off) the case neck ID is about .363". Case necks were very smokey even with 32 grains 4759 and 45 grains 3031.


MJ,

The smoke on your necks is also in your chamber. Once it starts, you won't seal right again until you take it out. And it is probably back in your action too.

Since you have 4759, I would harden a few bullets. Then start at 16 grains and come up a grain a pop until it starts to open up, probably about 20/1/2 grains. This would show general accuracy potential. Once you know what that level is, you can answer the questions in your mind.

But your POI change is screaming at you though. I can't sleep because it's so loud. Jackets! Jackets! Jackets! Remember the ol' Brill Creame commercials? Just one box would do ya! :grin: Bill gave you a hint giving you the load. 56/7 grains of RL15. :grin:

[joeb33050]

I have a M70 Target rifle that shoots jacketed fine but is worn to where I can't get it to shoot cast real well. Nobody wants to buy it, so I've talked to Norm Johnson the gunsmith who can rebore to 8MM-06, 338-06 or 35 Whelan. I'd prefer the Whelan because it is a "standard" cartridge. My questions:
will a 35 Whelan shoot cast into 1" or less AVERAGES at 100 yards?
How bad is the recoil, about a 12 pound gun with scope?
Thanks;
joe b.

[JSH]

I would have to say YES on the 35 Whelan question. A good friend of mine swapped barrels on a Savage with one of the Midway offerings in the 35 Whelan. It shoots very well to say the least. 1" at 100m for a 5 shot string is not hard if you do your part. Under 2" at 200m is not a problem either, usually one called flier on the shooters side. I have been casting the Lyman 204 grain RN/GC for this. Don't quote me on this, powder was WC860 I think. Surplus from Pats. It leaves some unburned kernals, but is very consistant with a compressed load.
This shoots so well that I am on the search for an action to do the same, but would prefer the 35 WhelanAI.
Jeff

[NVcurmudgeon]

joe, my .35 Whelen was built as a hunting rifle, but averages about 1.5 MOA with cast boolits. (Early Ruger 77 Action, 2.75 X Redfield Bear Cub scope) It has a 1:16 24" Lilja barrel. Most used boolit is NEI 220358, casting 213 gr. in WW. This seems to be very similar to the Lyman 200 gr. RN .35 Rem. I did try a not-too-well cast sample of somebody else's RCBS 35-200, and found it to be maybe a little better than my NEI. A long 255 gr. Hoch semi-spitzer did stabilize in the 16 twist at 1400 fps. the only glitch is that this cartridge tends to set back the shoulder with mild loads. Partial full length sizing will lead to misfires in about 10 firings. Now that I use a Redding true neck sizing die, things have gotten better in that area. Don't yet know what the limit is.

[Bass Ackward]

My questions:
1. will a 35 Whelan shoot cast into 1" or less AVERAGES at 100 yards?
2. How bad is the recoil, about a 12 pound gun with scope?
Thanks;
joe b.


Joe,

1. Yes. In fact, I believe that your existing barrel probably has some of the stresses worked out of it and will make a better barrel than new. But I will tell you this, when you step on the thing, you actually have to hold it. I mean, you can't be laying it in the bag and gripping the back bag with the free hand. But if you hold, it and CAN hold it on target, they will shoot right there. Especially if you want to stay with squib loads. (below 2000 fps)

2. Mine is a 7 1/2 gun including scope and I have no trouble with one box. Two starts the brain a rattlin round the dome. But I am running 250 at 2200 or so. No need to go that high in weight if you get Norm to cut you a short throat. (.100 ball seat max with 1 1/2 degree taper) This will shoot the RCBS 200 grainer like nobody's business. If you lighten the taper any more than that, you won't be able to use the bore ride nose.

[Marlin Junky]

I have not yet used a Lee factory crimp die for fear that I might be brutalizing my lovingly cast and inspected boolits.

NVcurmudgeon,

Lee FC's are great for leverguns. Even though my favorite heavy 30-30 boolit has a crimp groove built in, I Lee FC crimp lower so I can seat to touch the rifling when loading for my old 336A.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

Since you have 4759, I would harden a few bullets. Then start at 16 grains and come up a grain a pop until it starts to open up, probably about 20/1/2 grains. This would show general accuracy potential. Once you know what that level is, you can answer the questions in your mind.

But your POI change is screaming at you though. I can't sleep because it's so loud. Jackets! Jackets! Jackets! Remember the ol' Brill Creame commercials? Just one box would do ya! :grin: Bill gave you a hint giving you the load. 56/7 grains of RL15. :grin:

Bass,

I was thinking about heat-treating my next batch to about 20 BHN but to drive them harder (more pressure). I don't understand your suggestion to start at 16 grains of 4759... I should be subsonic with that charge. :confused:

Regarding the jacketed bullets, I think we've had this conversation before and you've convinced me to try some but I don't know what to buy. Does it matter if the jacketed bullets don't come anywhere close to touching the rifling when the rounds are chambered?

Back to loading the SAECO boolits:
I was going to load up a bunch with 3031 at a few different charge weights... e.g., 44, 45 (again), 46 and 47 grains to see what happens and then also try some AA2520 because I've got about 16 pounds of it. However, I'd really like to shoot some jacketed bullets through the H-R before wasting any more of my precious boolit metal (I sure will be glad when I have a range on my own property!) Will 10 rounds of jacketed ammo make a difference or do I need to shoot 50 or more? Can I assume I'd be shooting one round of jacketed ammo, cleaning and shooting again, etc.?

MJ

[Bass Ackward]

Bass,

I was thinking about heat-treating my next batch to about 20 BHN but to drive them harder (more pressure). I don't understand your suggestion to start at 16 grains of 4759... I should be subsonic with that charge. :confused:

Does it matter if the jacketed bullets don't come anywhere close to touching the rifling when the rounds are chambered?

Will 10 rounds of jacketed ammo make a difference or do I need to shoot 50 or more? Can I assume I'd be shooting one round of jacketed ammo, cleaning and shooting again, etc.?

MJ


MJ,

The 4759 exercise was just to see what the gun would do. Think of it as a foundation to build on. You only need three shots per grain until you find the sweet spot. Wouldn't it be fun to have a plinker set-up too? My gun does about 1/2" with 17 grains.

I would get some 225 Sierras if it were me and seat out about .003 off the lands. You DON'T want to wear the throat out any farther. Your plan should just be on the barrel. They don't have to be wide open either. 3031 would do fine.

I would. Shoot clean, shoot clean. If you fire two or three and you don't pull any copper, then try 3. They don't have to be wide open either. See what kind of groups you get. If you shoot 2" with jackets, you can't expect a whole lot better with cast at HV.

[Marlin Junky]

MJ,

The 4759 exercise was just to see what the gun would do. Think of it as a foundation to build on. You only need three shots per grain until you find the sweet spot. Wouldn't it be fun to have a plinker set-up too? My gun does about 1/2" with 17 grains.

Bass,
Is that 1/2" at 50 yards?

MJ


MJ,
I would get some 225 Sierras if it were me and seat out about .003 off the lands. You DON'T want to wear the throat out any farther. Your plan should just be on the barrel. They don't have to be wide open either. 3031 would do fine.

What about these:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=141177

Everyone is out of the 225 Sierras. How many jacketed rounds do I need to fire at over two bits per bullet anyway?

MJ

[Bass Ackward]

Is that 1/2" at 50 yards?

What about these:

MJ


MJ,

aaaaa .... no, that's at 100.

The Speers are fine except that I don't have a load worked up for those that should get you fairly good accuracy. The motive for jackets was twofold from my perspective. One is to help the barrel, the other is to help you gain some confidence. :grin: I can come up with something.

[Marlin Junky]

Bass,

Good morning... you sure are an early bird. I'm getting ready to go shoot a Lever Action Silhouette match this morning. If you don't mind me askin', what's your excuse for being up before the chickens?

Anyway, I've only got a little metal can of 3031, but enough 2520, DP-74 and H380 to burn down the house so loads using these powders would be great. I've also got some H414 and W760. I'll order some of them new-fangled boolits this evening.

Have a good day,
MJ

P.S. 1/2 MOA... yahoo! :-D

[Bass Ackward]

Bass,
Anyway, I've only got a little metal can of 3031, but enough 2520, DP-74 and H380 to burn down the house so loads using these powders would be great. I've also got some H414 and W760. I'll order some of them new-fangled boolits this evening.

MJ,

And the winner is?

Of the powders you list, the computer says, 58 grains of 2520 is 50,000 psi if you stay at 3.34 OAL. Only 2500 fps. So I would kick it with a magnum primer. Should be fairly accurate and not copper too bad. Start low and come up.

Early? I am east coast and I got my GMT Clock screwed up so the time is always wrong.

[44man]

I would make up a new batch of brass and check the neck fit without turning them. I would shoot them with a bullet jammed into the rifling to form the shoulder to fit and shoot hot enough for forming. That would cure the headspace and chamber fit. You might need a larger boolit and expander. I would not shoot super light loads that won't seal and push the shoulders back.
I would take the time to fit brass to the gun, then never set the shoulder back until they won't chamber anymore. A little excess headspace means nothing as long as the brass takes it up.
You have to remember that making a larger caliber out of a smaller one will make the necks thinner. It does more damage to fit to turn them then to leave them alone or just try to buy made brass for the gun.

[lovedogs]

I'll probably get cussed out for mentioning jacketed bullets here but whenever I read of .35 Whelens I get all teary-eyed. I built up a .35 Whelen Imp. years ago and, like a fool, let someone talk me out of it. It had a Mauser '98 action with a sporter-weight bbl. by McGowan. Boy, what a great bbl. it was, too. It wore an old Lyman 4X scope. That rifle shot max loads of 4320 using either Hornady 200 gr. or Speer 250 gr. into a ragged hole at 100 yds. It had a Herter's Monte Carlo Walnut stock that was gorgeous. It shot the 250 gr. at 2500 FPS. Boy, what a gun. I've tried to buy it back but the guy I sold it to won't sell. Woe is me!

[Bass Ackward]

I'll probably get cussed out for mentioning jacketed bullets here but whenever I read of .35 Whelens I get all teary-eyed. I built up a .35 Whelen Imp. years ago and, like a fool, let someone talk me out of it. It had a Mauser '98 action with a sporter-weight bbl. by McGowan. Boy, what a great bbl. it was, too. It wore an old Lyman 4X scope. That rifle shot max loads of 4320 using either Hornady 200 gr. or Speer 250 gr. into a ragged hole at 100 yds. It had a Herter's Monte Carlo Walnut stock that was gorgeous. It shot the 250 gr. at 2500 FPS. Boy, what a gun. I've tried to buy it back but the guy I sold it to won't sell. Woe is me!


Lovey,

I got good news for ya. They still sell actions, barrels and reamers. You could create another that may just do better?

Don't you deserve it?

[Marlin Junky]

MJ,

And the winner is?

Of the powders you list, the computer says, 58 grains of 2520 is 50,000 psi if you stay at 3.34 OAL. Only 2500 fps. So I would kick it with a magnum primer. Should be fairly accurate and not copper too bad. Start low and come up.

Bass,

That's with the 220 grain Speer? 'Cause Accurate has the following maximum load data available online for the 225 Sierra:

55.0 grains 2520, 2599 fps 51,100 psi



MJ

[NVcurmudgeon]

I'll probably get cussed out for mentioning jacketed bullets here but whenever I read of .35 Whelens I get all teary-eyed. I built up a .35 Whelen Imp. years ago and, like a fool, let someone talk me out of it. It had a Mauser '98 action with a sporter-weight bbl. by McGowan. Boy, what a great bbl. it was, too. It wore an old Lyman 4X scope. That rifle shot max loads of 4320 using either Hornady 200 gr. or Speer 250 gr. into a ragged hole at 100 yds. It had a Herter's Monte Carlo Walnut stock that was gorgeous. It shot the 250 gr. at 2500 FPS. Boy, what a gun. I've tried to buy it back but the guy I sold it to won't sell. Woe is me!

Don't worry about being cussed out for mentioning jacketed bullets, I have it on good authority that a moderator, who shall remain nameless, has already broken the ice bragging about his Whelen and reddish bullets on this thread. "Who will watch the watchers?"

[lar45]

Have you done a chamber cast or checked the position of the shoulder?
I have a Handi in 30-06 that I had a terrible time getting rounds to go off. If the round didn't get caught on the ejector, it would fall into the way too deep chamber. It is cut about a rims thickness too deep! I would send it back, but I cut the barrel shorter and other stuff before I noticed the excessive head space.
I'm kind of suprized that Lee doesn't have the 35 Whelen as a stock offering. It looks like you can have one made for $29.

[Marlin Junky]

I would make up a new batch of brass and check the neck fit without turning them. I would shoot them with a bullet jammed into the rifling to form the shoulder to fit and shoot hot enough for forming. That would cure the headspace and chamber fit. You might need a larger boolit and expander. I would not shoot super light loads that won't seal and push the shoulders back.
I would take the time to fit brass to the gun, then never set the shoulder back until they won't chamber anymore. A little excess headspace means nothing as long as the brass takes it up.
You have to remember that making a larger caliber out of a smaller one will make the necks thinner. It does more damage to fit to turn them then to leave them alone or just try to buy made brass for the gun.

44man,

Yup... the only other time I've fire-formed was to create .450 Watts from .357H&H which was necessary back when I did it (circa '75) if I wanted to shoot the .458WM "Long". That worked out OK because of headspacing on the belt and I new I was complicating things by using formed 270 Win brass but what the heck... it was an interesting experience. Now I need a batch of .35 Whelen brass and some copper clad boolits. Looks like my cheapo project gun is turning out to be an investment... oh well, at least it has a good trigger. :-?

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

lar45, et al.,

I haven't done a chamber cast but I've taken impressions with soft Pb of the neck, ball-seat and rifling commencement which is how I got my spec's for designing a MM-35-250-GC. I figure the next step is to buy some copper clad boolits, seat them in new .35 Whelen brass way out to touch the rifling and fire-form with a full load of 2520, DP-74 or DP-85. I've got mixed feelings about loading up a bunch of rounds with DP-85 though. Granted the stuff was cheap and I'm pretty sure at this point I have no real good use for it; BUT, it'll take 60+ grains of it to get a good burn and that means borderline fierce recoil. I used 58 grains of DP-85 and a WLRM primer behind SAECO 352 at 244 grains and got at least a couple grains unburned powder remaining in the 22" barrel. The velocity with this load was about 2250 and there's no way I'm going to shoot 100 rounds from the bench with this load. I suppose I could load up 62+ grains of this stuff and piss everyone off at the range while shooting off-hand over the chronograph and into the hill. Heck, I think I can get about 64 grains of DP-85 behind a SAECO 352 because the throat is so darn long (.35")! Pretty cool, huh? I've always wanted to own a feather-weight .375H&H Magnum! Perhaps I can get a few of my more curious fellow range members to help me fire-form brass.

I am kind of wondering though how that wide neck diameter is going to work out. The chamber at the neck mikes .391" OD and with .012" neck walls that will provide enough room to chamber a 9.3mm boolit yet the ball-seat is .361" and the barrel measures a typical .350"/.358".

I should'a bought a Marlin in 45-70. :???:

MJ

[brian]

MJ,
Sorry to be so late to the post. 35 Whelen. Impressive round. I found a used Rem 700 Classic at the gun store. Followed me home. The factory walnut stock it wore was straight grained, but plain. Exceptionally light too. Put an XS receiver sight on it and removed the rear barrel sight. No scope, No mounts. Very light and handy. Rivals any carbine lever action. 6.5 lbs. However with the load on the alliant web page (59.5Re15, H250gr.) it does back up some. But a great CB plinker too. all the 38special/357Mag CBs work great for light loads. A friend sold me a Lyman 3589. 280 gr. RN. Lube grooves perfect for the long Whelen neck. Looks like an african solid when loaded. With my old eyes, XS peep (bighole) and those 280s, in such a light rifle, I usually do no better than 3"-4" groups at 100. But it hits with authority. The throat mic'd out at 0.361, which is what I size the CBs to. Barrel groove is 0.357" (tight). Barrel interior isn't up to Rem's usually smooth specs. With anything approaching a full house load it's a session in determination to shoot it off the bench, with such a light weight. But it makes for a dandy light handy rifle to take along on a hike. With pistol cb's at modest velocity it makes a nice small game getter. With those big 280s it'll do fine for bigger stuff. I'd highly recommend a 35 Whelen or 358 Win as a good CB caliber, though I feel the 35 Whelen has the edge for CBs due to the longer neck.
Have fun,
Brian

[NVcurmudgeon]

brian, interesting you get 3 to 4 " groups at 100 with the 3589 in your 16" twist Whelen. Some posters have reported terrible accuracy with that combination. I wonder if your rifle would still be minute of deer at 200? My Whelen has a 16" twist Lilja barrel and stabilizes a Hoch 255 gr semi spitzer that is nearly as long as the 3589, but i haven't tried the 3589 in it.

[Marlin Junky]

Sorry I can't add anything interesting to this thread yet. I just received my new components for barrel break-in and fire-forming yesterday. I haven't heard from MM regarding my 35-250-GC but I will burn some DP-85 in the Whelen next Thursday to get things moving forward. Today was 30-30 day and I burned some DP-68 in the ol' 336A for the first time. Unfortunately, 22 grains behind RCBS 30-180FN let me down. I'm guessing the load wasn't generating enough pressure because the velocity spreads were pretty high. I'd try 23 grains but that'll push me over 1800 fps and I'm really looking for a lighter load so I think I'll jack my WC-820 load up from 16.0 to 16.5 which should get me right at 1700 fps. The 16 grain load is a tack driver but it's a little slow in the winter. Maybe all the DP-68 load needs is a good crimp... I could try that next time too. Sorry for rambling on about the 30-30 in the Whelen thread.

MJ