30 brave men KIA

[DCP]

30 brave men KIA this weekend. May they RIP.
22 KIA were members of Seal team 6.
They were killed when a helicopter was shot down in Afghanistan

For their family and friends are thoughts and prayers

Vaya con Dios

[Wayne Smith]

Two were members of our (Chris and LOML and I) Church. That's three Seals we have lost this year - just from the Church. The ministry is very active is supporting the families.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

That was really sad news. So many have given so much for so many years. Freedom has a very high price.

[MakeMineA10mm]

It's very sad, that we lose such great men, in such numbers all at once.

I'm sure this will hit the NSW community hard.

Prayers for all.

[smoked turkey]

So Tragic. Our best people out there putting it all on the line for us. My heart goes out to the families and our prayers for their peace in the midst of this horrible storm in their lives. Glad to hear that the church there is doing what they know to do to make this a little more bearable. Their sacrafice won't be forgotten.

[1Shirt]

May God watch over and care for them for eternity!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[MtGun44]

Three are from the local Army aviation group at the airport where I keep my plane. I stopped
to see the names and some messages on the fence outside the hangar this afternoon. It
makes me so sad that we are losing these fine young men. I know what it is like to lose a family
member in battle and it never goes away. May they rest in peace, and the families
already know that they died as heroes.

I was very worried because three AF Spec Ops combat air controllers were on board, and a
relative does that job. He is OK, thank God, but thirty of his compatriots are not.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

Twenty years from now Afghanistan will still be the Islamic piss hole run by corrupt politicians, mullahs and war lords as it is today.

There is nothing there worth the lives of these brave men.

[MakeMineA10mm]

True, but these men were doing something they both love and believe in. Better than being hit by a bus walking across the street... Remember the statement attributed to Patton? "The best thing for a warrior is to be killed by the last bullet of the last battle of the last war?"

I'm personally happy and proud to say that these men protected me, my family, and my country, and they deserve all my respect and admiration. I'm also glad we're taking the fight to the enemy and not waiting around over here for them to create victims here. I'd rather the terrorists be made the victims over there.

Ultimately, it will take something major to end the middle-east's fighting. Not sure what, how or when that would be, but I know it's going to take something more than the WOT, so I agree with you there.

[Char-Gar]

To be certain, these guys were volunteers doing what they believed was their duty. However, I think if you asked these men, the others that have been killed and maimed over there and their families if they would rather be alive and whole I think you know the answers.

My problem is with the misguided politicians who think they can take over that piss hole, turn it into a democracy and hand it back to them and have it come out great. That is foolishness to the extreme.

I believe in hunting down the bad guys and killing them in their beds, regardless of national boundaries or diplomatic considerations. But 10 years in that outhouse doing nation building with little visible results ..no way!

[Echo]

There is something hinky about that whole effort. They were riding in an ANG helo, not one of their own? And news got out awfully fast about the situation. There is more here than is being reported.

[MakeMineA10mm]

To be certain, these guys were volunteers doing what they believed was their duty. However, I think if you asked these men, the others that have been killed and maimed over there and their families if they would rather be alive and whole I think you know the answers.

My problem is with the misguided politicians who think they can take over that piss hole, turn it into a democracy and hand it back to them and have it come out great. That is foolishness to the extreme.

I believe in hunting down the bad guys and killing them in their beds, regardless of national boundaries or diplomatic considerations. But 10 years in that outhouse doing nation building with little visible results ..no way!

Yeah, I agree with that, generally.

I've been thinking about that "what" it would take to really make effective change happen. I think there's two choices:

First, the "peaceful" change option - It will take a couple generations to make really effective change there. In the first 20 years, establish safety. You get women educated, voting, and feeling more-equal to the males. That will have an immense impact, especially on the next generation that grows up under such circumstances (safely). Women tend to worry more about their children's safety - though some radicalized muslim women don't... You also get political reform going, with the limitation that there's no taliban, etc., involved in govt. Then, after that first 20 years, you make a safe haven for Christian missionaries. In the grand scheme of our world, Christianity seems to emphasize the strongest that God = Love. Nothing against Judaism, but the Old Testament God is pretty much ticked off a lot, and there's a lot of fear-based obedience there. Not sure that fixes our overall problem. Obviously, Islam radicalized teaches conversion through killing, and that's not working. So, Christianity is the religion that needs to take hold there. Only by changing their hearts will their minds follow. Get the women, get Christianity, and in 50 years, it will be a different place... Yep, 50 years, at least.

The other choice is the Neutron Bomb. Lot's quicker; less risk for our troops, but kind-a messy... :shock:

[Wayne Smith]

One generation convinced of the rule of law will do it. They teach their children.

[Char-Gar]

There are several thousand years of culture which won't be changed in one generation or even ten. They have what they understand to be rule of law. They have Islamic law and the law laid down by their tribal leaders. They are not lawless, just have laws not rooted in Roman and Judeo/Christian antecedents. They just appear to be lawless, as we understand that notion.

They will not become Christian either. For 1,500 years there has been a mongoose and cobra thing going on between Christianity and Islam that that is not about to change in any foreseeable future.

If there every will be a change, and I doubt there will be, it will come from inside their society. It will be an internal evolutionary change and we will not see it. Oh, we can kill them until they loose their taste to fight us for a generation, but the hatred will fester again in the new generations and we will be at it again.

There really never has been anything we could call peace between between the two worlds. That is unless we call peace the space between violent outbreaks. The only thing we can do is make brutal unrelenting war on the trouble makers until they are driven into their holes. But we will have to do it again with the new hatch.

We need to keep our powder dry and our resources on the ready to strike at a moments notice anywhere in the world. This grinding down of our military forces and national will with decade long, protracted wars trying to change the culture and government is foolish beyond words.

[MakeMineA10mm]

I see your point, but the distasteful part of that is there is no end-game solution. Americans, particularly, don't like that. Americans are willing to fight and sacrifice to get to a permanent resolution, but to commit to unending, repititious fights with no end in sight is not likely to be embraced and would be seen by many as a failure just as bad as a protracted occupation like we're in now and would be turned into political fodder. ("President so-in-so didn't finish the job, so we have to go back again...")

I see this as slightly different but similar to the Pacific campaign in WWII. The Japanese were radicalized through the new bushido concept and propaganda to the point of the military fighting to the last man sometimes using self-sacrificial certain-to-be-unsuccesful tactics and civilians throwing themselves and their children off cliffs to keep from being captured. We won the campaign and we won the peace there.

There are two glaring differences between that situation and this one: religion and the military tactics employed by our adversary.

I believe that we're becoming better at assymetric warfare (counter-insurgency) all the time, and a huge factor in that is proper utilization of special operations forces. So, while this event was tragic beyond belief, we can't make the mistake of throwing away a winning tactic when these sad events occur.

The problem I see with our current strategy is that we're not directly-addressing the religion angle of the problem. Of course, we might be still too early in the process I outlined above... Which is another reason why we need to stay the course.

[MtGun44]

Christianity has been attacked by Muslim armies periodically, when they are militarily able,
for over 1000 years. They conquored and held most of Spain for 400 years or so, and
we BARELY stopped them in Vienna 1683, coming around the east end of the Med to
conquor Europe. I lost a much loved nephew in this fight, and it will not stop in this
particular iteration until we do what we have done in past centuries - knock them down
hard enough that they take a century or two to regroup and come at us again.

Most Americans and Europeans laugh or just roll their eyes when Bin Laden says that
he is out to reestablish the caliphate, but that is exactly what they intend. The Ottoman
Empire (the caliphate) ruled the region from about 1300 to 1922. THEY WANT IT BACK,
and their religion drives them to conquest - it tells them that they MUST rule the world.
They had a 600 year run and have taken about 75 yrs to regroup and start attacking us
again, some by infiltration and using the ultimate weapon - the womb; others using bombs
and guns.

Most folks in America and Europe just want to be left alone, but that isn't really an option.
If we roll over and leave the fight, we will be back - sooner or later, or we will be conquored.
This is a battle that has raged for almost 1000 years, off and on, with gaps large enough that
the West forgets that there is even a war, and is surprised when they come at us again.
We need to study history, this is complex and will not be simply solved. It is particularly
difficult when most of our leaders vehemently deny the identity of the enemy, and we
refuse to study the writings of our opponent, where they say what their goals are and
how they will attain them. Look up the Moslem Brotherhood Project. Look up the
12th Mahdi and Amadinejad's view of his coming.

Rodney King's plaintive question- "Can't we all just get along." comes to mind in a
sad way. Apparently the answer is , NO. And pretending that it is "yes" doesn't
make it so, no matter how much I wish it were true.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

MtGun44.. I neither laugh nor roll my eyes. I take Bin Laden and others as serious as a heart attack when they talk about the caliphate. As much as folks would like an end game for this, there will be none. There may be a cessation of war for a generation, or even several generations, but as you say, when they are able they will come at us again.

I could not agree with your post more.

[Red River Rick]

I feel for all those whom have lost loved one's over there. :sad:

We had a young local guy killed in Afganistan a couple of years ago. Killed by an IED. Poor guy didn't even have the chance to fight back.

The Taliban are lowest scum on the earth! The whole bunch on them over there. They can't even look their eneny in the eye, but have to hide and do it from far off location.



Twenty years from now Afghanistan will still be the Islamic piss hole run by corrupt politicians, mullahs and war lords as it is today.

There is nothing there worth the lives of these brave men.

Charger, I couldn't argee more! But since this isn't the political forum, I won't comment any further!

RRR