i lit a time bomb here

[bigted]

im going to lite a bomb here only because it has bugged me for decades and maybe im the only dumb-S for not knowing the answer but i dont... so please be gentle with this lil poor kid from the country.

i have always wondered from a very long time ago why it is that a given gun...modern from the early 1900's up...are almost always more accurate with smokeless powder and jacketed bullets over black powder and cast?

wowwwww now...im talking across the board guns...not only bpcr guns. this question comes from experimenting for years with cast boolits both g/c and pb boolits. i have off and on experimented with bp also in cartridge guns of diff calibers and across the board i and everybody i know that has compared the same ...come up with better accuracy from the modern bullets and powder.

im not talking about the legendary and traditional shooting of particular guns here...just wanting a possible answer about the quality's that make truly accurate rifles shoot.

example

i own a 25-06 with a wispy barrel that will drive tacks at 300 yards...way under what ive ever seen or heard of with any bp rifles...especially with lite barrels...not something that you need a gun bearer to pack it along with in the field.

i know huh??? heresy some will cry!... i only want to simplify my own curiosity and hear examples from the ones that should know about such things. i have my own thoughts about this but nothing very scientific.

nothing said here will ever pry my favorite bpcr rifles from my shaking hands ...its a question i have never had an answer for and...just a prying mind wondering is all.

THERE...THAT SHOULD KEEP US ALL ENTERTAINED FOR A SHORT WHILE...beats cutting your thumb while whittlin a stick.

[Springfield]

Are the accurate smokeless cartridges you refer to mostly bottleneck cartridges, while most BP are not? Just a thought.

[Chicken Thief]

One thing that limits BP severely is top speed!

I'll bet cents for $ that if your 25-06 is downloaded to a Mv of no more than 1400fps then your 300yds tackdriving is a thing of the past.

Typically all hell breaks loose when a supersonic bullet goes transsonic and then subsonic. The life of most BP boolits.

Does the above makes sense to you?

[NickSS]

I have done some experimenting over the years too and have this to say. You are comparing apples and oranges. If you load cast bullets and black powder in most modern rounds (bottle neck cartridges designed for jacketed bullets and smokeless powder) they perform best at what they were designed to use. I have loaded 30-30, 303 British and 30-06 with jackeked bullets and black powder and got results that were less than I could get with the same bullets and smokeless power. I have done the same with lead bullets and got even poorer results. On the other hand when loading cartridges originally designed for black powder with both Jacketed and lead bullets my results were much better. What I have come to believe is that the rifling used for modern high intensity rounds is not compatible with black powder. They foul out faster and are usually too tight a twist to work well with black powder. Also accuracy with black in BN cartridges is probmatical even for rounds originally designed for use of black powder. I have never gotten one to shoot as accurately as I can a straight case to do. So there is my two cents worth in your quest for knowledge.

[martinibelgian]

Nick,

I'll agree with the BP rounds shooting better with BP and nitro rounds shooting better with smokeless, but not with BP and BN's being an accuracy issue... In actual fact, my most accurate BP rifle(s) are chambered for BN cases (#2 Musket). I use them in competition and don't feel handicapped at all. I did however have to design my own reamer, as most of the reamers out there will give you the wrong chamber configuration, not conducive to good accuracy...

[Baron von Trollwhack]

ACCURACY STANDARDS HAVE CHANGED. A Civil War soldier was considered a good shot if he could shoot a regulation canteen (man's head-8") at 100 yards. A lot of fellows today can put 5 in a cigarette pack at that distance with a good iron sighted AR.

BvT

[wgr]

and take the fact that your 25-06 is playing with just a few in. at 300. a BP gun might be 1/3 feet above the target at mid point.

[405]

bigted,
tick, tick, tick.... phft- fizzle :mrgreen:
Such cast bullet heresy, pure blasphemy- I can't believe it.... no outrage, no caterwaulin'!

Seriously, after watching some local shooting fanatic friends with light varmint benchrest guns consistently shoot .75" groups at 300 yds, there's no doubt in my mind it's true.

Why- what causes/allows the difference? I imagine there are many things at work simultaneously. But the keystone, the basic foundation of my theory IS the modern, extremely precise and consistent jacketed bullet.

[mustanggt]

Ted stuff it with black and enjoy. Stuff it with white and enjoy. Top it with lead or copper or that new fangled paper jacket stuff and enjoy.

[bigted]

bigted,
tick, tick, tick.... phft- fizzle :mrgreen:
Such cast bullet heresy, pure blasphemy- I can't believe it.... no outrage, no caterwaulin'!

Seriously, after watching some local shooting fanatic friends with light varmint benchrest guns consistently shoot .75" groups at 300 yds, there's no doubt in my mind it's true.

Why- what causes/allows the difference? I imagine there are many things at work simultaneously. But the keystone, the basic foundation of my theory IS the modern, extremely precise and consistent jacketed bullet.



yes this is exactly my thinking as well. i think that im trying to exact too much out of my bp and cast. i can get 2 inch at 100 and close to that at 200 but it/they wont shoot with my bolt guns. best i can get with my 45-70 hi-wall...[ the most accurate so far ]...is with rl-7 and a jacketed 405 which will go consistently into an inch at 100. this is my Winchester hunter model with the wispy 28 inch barrel...not the browning hi-wall bpcr or the sharps with its 34 inch barrel.

to be fair as well...im still trying the things i read from 'don' and 'the lunger' as well as others that have suggested stuff to try so the experiments are going strong as time will allow. im not all that discouraged yet as when the experiments have all been done...[if thats possible]...then i would think this kind of shooting will become dull and non-interesting. the old saying...if it were easy...and all that.

the 2 inch is very ok for hunting but i kinda expect better with the heavy barrel sharps and hi-walls. maybe im expecting too much and need to settle into the fun of them and go to my bolt guns for the quarter group sizes. i just hear of minute of angle from some guns here shooting bp and cast and im still trying to get there myself. when i get consistent 1 inch and under...ill yell from the mountain top for a week...lol...[smilie=b:...:?:...:!:

[cajun shooter]

I think that if you compare anything from the late 1800's to the same product that was made in the late 1900's and you will see that the later models out perform them. With that being said I would like to tell you that you like all other members of this forum have a different gene that the vast population of the rest of the world.
A quick test will show you where I am going with this.
Would you rather be with a group of friends on horseback tracking big elk to shoot with your 45-70 Sharps
Or be with a group of guys in Tuxedos at a company party talking about the stock market
What I'm getting at is that you are able to enjoy the pure things in life so why make them complicated by asking Why is there air?
I know that I just showed my REDNECK but I would not change a thing. I can have fun sitting on the tailgate of a truck with a cold one and good friends and let the small things go away. Like my old pappy use to say, 100 years from now it will not matter anyway.

[RMulhern]

Big Ted

Forget it! I can lay down prone with either one of my two Palma rifles and shoot from 1000 yds. most any decent day a clean with a high X count! No contest betwixt that and BPC rifles. Smokeless/jacketed bullets win easily but BPCR and SP are comparing apples to oranges!! BPCR isn't supposed to be able to do that! If it could...it would be as boring as NRA HP!! If you've got a streak of historical value in your soul.....shoot BPCR for that reason alone....and let the cards fall where they may! It ain't supposed to be rocket science!! If you want to shoot Xs all day...get you a 6.5x47 Lapua built up and you can do just that....but it ain't near as much fun as trying to shoot a measley 90 from 1000 with a BPCR!!

[mustanggt]

Can I hear a halleluiah brothers!!! Man Rick, you got me all motivated now. You weren't a DI were you??? I'm all about the history. Thanks Rick. :mrgreen:

[missionary5155]

Good morning
A few other factors I think about...
Bore Diameter... My caliber .243 Remington model 788 can near put all its 85 grainers into one hole made by my best shot from the caliber .50-70 at 300 yards. One twitch from me & the caliber .243 may move 1/2" so the group is now still under an inch. But that caliber .50 with the same twitch is well over an inch.

Accumulated recoil... I can shoot my Interarms Mark x caliber .30-06 with 180 grainers for an hours time and hardly be bothered with recoil and groups will not change much. My most accurate caliber .45-70 a Navy Roller rebarreled with a Bauska 33" barrel will near shoot as well with 30-1 475 grainers. But if I fire 60 rounds in an hours time the effect of recoil will take over and my capacity to shoot as well is not as fine as round #10. I weigh a whole wopping 158 pounds so maybe if I had another 100 pounds of mass it would not matter but then I would not fit into my 33# kayak.

Sights... I still have 25 / 20 eyesight in my right eye. I can see very well at any distance in my shooting eye. But after 30 minutes or 30 rounds of sighting through that little hole in the adjustable diopter eye strain becomes a factor. 30 minutes of sitting behind a 12x Leupold is a hole different world and popping small groups at any range becomes much easier on the human ocular system. But I will not mount that Leupold on my Bauska barrel !

There is so much that comes into play.. What still amazes me are the scores fired by the rifleman at the 1000 yard Creedmore matches back in 1874 & following.
Mike in Peru

[martinibelgian]

Now take that same BP rifle chambered for an period cartridge (e.g. 45-70) and shoot both nitro and BP at long range. Now that will be a whole different game... And I'm not that sure the nitro load will come out best. If you want to compare apples to apples, that's the way to do it!

[dave roelle]

Going faster helps------------with a 100% or more difference in velocities between BPCR and NITRO based firearms, the reduction in time to target and all the small things that can happen to the bullet flying for that ammount of time becomes significant to accuracy

[bigted]

all very enlightening. here is one of my favorite examples...my winny 85 hi-wall [maruko]. with 34 grains of RL-7 and the rest of the case filled to the bottom of the 405 grain remington flat piont with corn meal filler...i get very good accuracy...1 inch and under for 5 shots at my 100 yard mark. when i stuff the case with 61 grains of 2f goex black and top it with a 457125 520 grain round nose boolit the best ive come up with is 2.5 inches at the same yardage for 5 shots.

in fairness i have loaded several loads with the same 61 grains with a ' primer wad ' and a 1/8th felt lubed over powder i have yet to try.

i also have loaded 15 lyman 457643 420 ish grainers with the same load of RL-7 and the cornmeal filler.

havnt shot these for groups yet but will report the findings then.

i also have a bunch of the bp loads for my browning bpcr rifle and plan on trying it for accuracy at the same time.

both these rifles have modern scopes on to eliminate error on my part and also i have been using the bench with very sturdy platform for bedding the rifle so as to learn the accuracy of my loads and rifles ...not ' my' ability with them yet.

thanks for all the answers. i enjoy everyones opinion and slant on this.

[BrentD]

2.5" at 100 yds with black is not very good, especially as a best.

I would never claim that bp is more accurate than smokeless. I know of no one who has adequately proved it to be true, but bp can and should be a lot better than what you are getting.

For instance, here is the first group of 5 I shot with a newly rebarreled .45-70.

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/M77%20Sharps/100%20yds%20M77%20510%20gr%20Prolate%2082%20Swiss. JPG

[montana_charlie]

when i stuff the case with 61 grains of 2f goex black and top it with a 457125 520 grain round nose boolit the best ive come up with is 2.5 inches at the same yardage for 5 shots.
How many times did you shoot that load in order to settle on 2.5 inches as your 'best' group?

Which fouling management method did you use?

Did you try 63 grains and 65 grains?

CM

[Don McDowell]

Sights, you have to compare apples to apples and not tangerines.
Are you shooting the same scope on the 45-70 as with the bolt gun or are you shooting irons on both?:drinks:

[Gunlaker]

There are more variables involved in shooting BP. If you've only tried two bullets then you may have more work to do.

I think that BP rifles are a whole lot more intolerant of a poor bullet/chamber fit than smokeless rifles with jacketed or hard cast bullets for instance.

Some chambers seem a lot more picky than others. My Shiloh in .45-70 is not picky. It shoots well with pretty much all of the bullets I've tried. Finding a good load was easy. I own a C. Sharps 1885 that took several months to find a good load. The difference between bad and good was 6MOA groups to under 1.5MOA groups. That was mostly going to a coarser granulation of BP coupled with a tapered bullet that fit the freebore well.

With all that said, none of my BP rifles show signs of even approaching the accuracy I get from my .308.

However as some of the old timers would say, put ten thousand rounds through the barrels of both rifles and then see which one shoots more accurately :-)

Regardless, shooting my .308 is boring. Unless its windy, nothing interesting happens :-).

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Keep in mind also what is being discussed here, is just exactly what happened in the 1890's when smokeless cartridges and guns started reaching their pinnacle.
Shooters could shoot further with great accuracy and less fuss with sights etc, the wind and mirage didn't matter much. Therefore by the time World War 1 was over blackpowder was on it's way out, and by the middle of the depression no more bp cartridges were loaded with anything other than smokeless,and nobody chambered a rifle for one of the bp cartridges, and it stayed pretty much that way until the bicenntenial celebrations started grabbing people by the nostalgic short hairs.:drinks:

[bigted]

im listening to one and all. the 'load' came about after shooting loads from 58 and graduating 1 grain at a time...[weighed] and ending at 72 grains being very compressed.

shot these loads behind lyman 457125...457643...remington jacketed 405's...hornaday 300 and 350 gr jacketed.

also experimented with cci large rifle thru magnum as well as large pistol and lp magnums and federal the same and also Winchester the same experiments.

i tryed them with and without over-powder wads and now am experimenting with the over primer wads but havnt done them yet.

so no i haven't been just shooting a small group of variables and also i shoot 100 of each experiment to make sure i dont mess up on a couple that would throw my experiment.

also the sights are all the same for my experiments...Leopold 6 - 18x. i also have a night-force...[i wont even tell what power it is to save myself the embarrassment]... that i installed on my browning but it was a small bit over the top even for me...LOL

im not done yet by a long shot...just wanted others thoughts on the original question that has been running thru my brain for awhile is all.

i dont doubt that ill get there sometime...meanwhile im having a ball with all the smoke and casting and ill run after another mold or two as well but we will see what and where when ive exhausted myself with the toys i already have.

keep em coming ... i enjoy every thought and suggestion

[405]

bigted,
Seems the thread has evolved slightly from "why is modern smokeless jbullet generally more accurate than ye olde BPCR" to "how to get to MOA with BPCR"? Well, that's a tough one! My experiences finally beat it into my thick skull that not all my guns, loads are capable of doing it. The first thing of course is minimizing shooter, sighting error. I think you handled a major part of that with your sight set up. Next is the basic gun, load and shooting technique. That is where the infinite number of variables start to add up.

Example: I have two guns with a few loads that will consistently get to under a MOA. I have a pazillion loads and 10 plus guns that simply can't do it, never will do it and can't be made to do it. The two guns that will are a modern C Sharps M1874 in 45-110 and an original Sharps M1874 in 44-90 SBN while my original 43 Spanish Rem. RB comes very, very close- all with aperture rears and globe fronts. I have no optics on any of my single shot cast bullet shooters. Among the 10 + guns that won't/can't are: a modern Shiloh Sharps M1874 in 45-70, a custom/original Win M1885 in 40-70 SS, an original heavy target model Win M1885 in 32-40, an original standard model Win M1885 in 32-40.

Of the three that will get close to MOA or less- the C Sharps 45-110 likes either a cast 440 gr GG bullet out of a MM mold or a 520 gr swaged paper patched bullet out of a custom Corbin die. The original Sharps in 44-90 SBN only likes a cast GG 420 gr bullet out of a MM mold. The 43 Spanish Rem RB only likes a cast 380 gr GG bullet out of a MM mold. BTW, there is nothing like shooting a sub MOA group with an original M1874 Sharps!!! :mrgreen:

[bigted]

bigted,
Seems the thread has evolved slightly from "why is modern smokeless jbullet generally more accurate than ye olde BPCR" to "how to get to MOA with BPCR"? Well, that's a tough one! My experiences finally beat it into my thick skull that not all my guns, loads are capable of doing it. The first thing of course is minimizing shooter, sighting error. I think you handled a major part of that with your sight set up. Next is the basic gun, load and shooting technique. That is where the infinite number of variables start to add up.

Example: I have two guns with a few loads that will consistently get to under a MOA. I have a pazillion loads and 10 plus guns that simply can't do it, never will do it and can't be made to do it. The two guns that will are a modern C Sharps M1874 in 45-110 and an original Sharps M1874 in 44-90 SBN while my original 43 Spanish Rem. RB comes very, very close- all with aperture rears and globe fronts. I have no optics on any of my single shot cast bullet shooters. Among the 10 + guns that won't/can't are: a modern Shiloh Sharps M1874 in 45-70, a custom/original Win M1885 in 40-70 SS, an original heavy target model Win M1885 in 32-40, an original standard model Win M1885 in 32-40.

Of the three that will get close to MOA or less- the C Sharps 45-110 likes either a cast 440 gr GG bullet out of a MM mold or a 520 gr swaged paper patched bullet out of a custom Corbin die. The original Sharps in 44-90 SBN only likes a cast GG 420 gr bullet out of a MM mold. The 43 Spanish Rem RB only likes a cast 380 gr GG bullet out of a MM mold. BTW, there is nothing like shooting a sub MOA group with an original M1874 Sharps!!! :mrgreen:

yes the origanal thread wasnt "why cant i find 1 inch groups in black-powder" but rather ... from a more scientific stand-point then im capable of....why is this accuracy difference a fact of life?

dont get me wrong tho...i enjoy the suggestions and hints from everybody on my quest for maybe an un-realistic expectation from my heavy barreled bp guns. i do enjoy the pleasant diversion from the hum drum loading of say the 25-06 and the predictable accuracy from it compared to the heart thumping breath taking experience of sparking black powder off thru a period correct rifle and "seeing" what happens.

thanks all and keep em coming.

oh and charlie...i use the 2 or 3 and sometimes 4 or 5 breaths thru the barrel between shots and sometimes i swab between with balistol n water on a patch then a clean one thru the bore for my fouling control....also i use my prepared from "another s" recipe for grease on the boolits of 1/3rd bees wax...1/3rd vegi crisco... and 1/3rd peanut oil. i hear this is very close to the SPG recipe and i get generally good grease cookie at the end of the barrel with it with my 520 Lyman but not so much with the 420ish Lyman...dont think the grease grooves are large enough with that one...457643 mold.

[w30wcf]

I missed this thread the first time aound....

Perhaps the real question is smokeless better than black in a black powder cartridge(?) since jacketed bullets / smokeless / scopes are in a totally different category.

I will say that in my 44-40 I have not found a smokeless load yet that will beat the 10 shot group fired at 100 yards with 37 grs of Swiss FFG.:smile:

w30wcf

[TXGunNut]

I missed this thread as well but I came up with the answer before I got the CB/BP bug.
Shooting BP and CB's in the rifles they were designed for is like shaking hands with our forefathers. It's about history, as mustanggt pointed out.
Shooting modern rifles with modern chamberings using smokeless powder driving j-bullets is nice, but it's not the same.
It bothers me that my BPCR seems perfectly happy shooting J-bullets and smokeless powder but I try not to dwell on it.

[RMulhern]

Sad to say....most of the 'youngsters' today involved with rifles don't have any connection to the past whatsoever! All they know...or THINK THEY KNOW....is a rifle that shoots bullets at their hoped for speed of light with a scope on it with an objective lens about the size of a syrup bucket!!

[Lead pot]

I think the old slug guns are still hard to beat for accuracy because there are fewer variables that the cartridge cases have.
When you look at some of the old writings of the shot groups the guys did with the slug guns and the equipment used to build those rifles and cast the bullets back then makes me wonder why I have problems getting consistent loads using rifles build now days with machinery a lot more precise then used back then.
Just look at this site.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B6v4EWFwG9xbYjZiMDM2NzMtMzJlMS00NmNlLWI1MTY tODQ1ZTdjZDhiYmVi&hl=en_US

[Swampman]

ACCURACY STANDARDS HAVE CHANGED. A Civil War soldier was considered a good shot if he could shoot a regulation canteen (man's head-8") at 100 yards. A lot of fellows today can put 5 in a cigarette pack at that distance with a good iron sighted AR.

BvT

Some could hit running rabbits at 250 yards. Read Company Aytch.

[Swampman]

If both guns have scopes on them, I believe cast boolits and blackpowder will give smokeless and jackets a run for their money in the right caliber....i.e. .45-70.

[bigted]

If both guns have scopes on them, I believe cast boolits and blackpowder will give smokeless and jackets a run for their money in the right caliber....i.e. .45-70.

that-ed-be a rite smart experiment i think. a 45-70 ya say? be fun to try when the weather starts to warm up a bit but if we could get a mail or internet fued going id sure be interested in playing. my favorite would be my hunter 45-70 with smokeless n jackets. with the 28 inch wispy barrel and the deep curved butplate n straight wrist.

say all targets would be placed at 100 yards for the smallest group of 5 mayhaps?

[TXGunNut]

At the moment I'm shooting pretty fair groups with my smokeless 45-70, even beginning to like CB's here lately. From my safe the smokeless and j-bullets 45-70 is quite a bit better than my BPCR 45-90 but will resume working to correct that after hunting season.

[Chill Wills]

ALL,

I am on really safe ground when I say the 1moa BPCR group is mostly un-heard of! It's been done. They get talked about a lot. Anyone that has been shooting BP and cast, working it hard for a good while has a wall hanger or two. I do. And if you shoot enough, you will. BUT, to be able to walk to the line when your relay is called and produce is very different.

Most of the shooting games we play in BPCR like the Creedmoor & Midrange matches and Silhouette don’t need MOA loads and rifles to win. They are rifleman’s games won by skilled rifleman. To contrast that somewhat the WSU (black powder) Schuetzen has a little tighter standard to be in the winner’s circle. Benchrest stool shooting and the best equipment of a by-gone era.

The BPCR games (Creedmoor & Midrange matches) use (varies) about a 2moa 10 ring or greater and in the case of silhouette, large asymmetrical targets at least that size for the feathers and much larger for the fur.

In truth, most of my best shooting rifle/load target combo’s go 1.5 moa in good conditions on round targets when load testing but on match day…. It could be anything. Conditions and how well I feel and see on any given day determine what I can do.

And then there is Offhand.

All the best,

[TXGunNut]

In truth, most of my best shooting rifle/load target combo’s go 1.5 moa in good conditions on round targets when load testing but on match day…. It could be anything. Conditions and how well I feel and see on any given day determine what I can do.-Chill Wills

I'm pretty demanding of my rifles and pretty much expect MOA from my modern bolt guns and my Guide Gun using J-bullets and smokeless. Quite honestly I'll settle for CB/SP loads that print under 2.5 MOA and BPCR loads under 3 at this point in my CB career but hope to improve on that as my casting skills progress. My rifles are either hunting rifles or toys so that works for me. I'd sure like to see some MOA BPCR groups someday but will settle for seeing them here for now.

[montana_charlie]

I'd sure like to see some MOA BPCR groups someday but will settle for seeing them here for now.
Can you settle for this one?
It's about a half inch high and three quarters wide, from a session in September.

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/Sept212011.jpg

Paper patched .45/90 with 83 grains of Goex Cartridge.
Target from inkjet printer, black bull 4.4 inches wide.

CM

[Chill Wills]

Yup, That is a wall hanger for sure. 100yd ?

Charlie, as you know, doing that on demand is the trick.

Assuming the same conditions, if it were a 500meter ram you where lined up on, what do You think the group size would be?

I know I have an idea.

Thanks for taking the time to post a pic:-)

Time to go out and cast, The pot is about hot enough......

[montana_charlie]

Yup, That is a wall hanger for sure. 100yd ?
Uhh ... yes. I think it's a waste of time to shoot a rifle at any shorter distance except for special occasions ... and a group that small at 200 would be too unbelievable to even post.


Charlie, as you know, doing that on demand is the trick.
I have shot this particular load enough that I think I can come pretty close to that most every time if my eyes will hold up. I'm at the age where they are changing.


Assuming the same conditions, if it were a 500meter ram you where lined up on, what do You think the group size would be?
I couldn't even guess, but mainly because of what I said about the eyes.

I have an astigmatism in my right eye. The eye muscles have always pulled the eyeball slightly cockeyed so I could use a smoother part of the cornea, so I haven't been heavily affected.
But, lately those muscles haven't been up to snuff, and I am beginning to get some a noticeable bit of vision in that one eye.
I have begun to consider some of that there LASIK surgery ... maybe so.

CM

[John Boy]

That is a wall hanger for sure. 100yd ?
Chill Wills, here's another 100yd 'wall hanger'. 2 sighter shots and then 23 more fired with 14 in the jagged hole blow tubing 70grs using one of Don McDowell's favorite powders - CTG and a Postell bullet ...
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Targets/LymanPostell100Yds.jpg

No pictures, but a 5-6" 500m group using the 375166 Ideal 38-55 bullet with 42 gr of the 2010 lot of KIK 1.5F and FFg. Will have to admit, a few don't make it on the steel but we're talking about a 320gr bullet

[Chill Wills]

Originally Posted by Chill Wills
"Yup, That is a wall hanger for sure. 100yd ?"

Charlie writes: “Uhh ... yes. I think it's a waste of time to shoot a rifle at any shorter distance except for special occasions ... and a group that small at 200 would be too unbelievable to even post.”

Uhh…Well…since you did not specify I thought I might ask and make sure you did not shoot that great looking target at 50y or 25y. I am just trying to be clear. In fact, it is almost unbelievable for 100y. It is Truly a nice group. Well done.

Charlie, I am very sorry to hear about your eye troubles! No Fun for sure! Though I do not have your problem I have had two eyes full of floaters since childhood. Some days I just can’t find the target around the “hair”. Other days it is better.
Good luck with it….none of us is getting any younger.

My question to you about the 500 meter Ram group size, your eye sight aside, was directed at the likelihood that we choose our time carefully to load test and practice. Doing so is reasonable. We want to test the ability of our rifle to put our latest arrangement and assortment of components in the smallest bughole we can make. Only in that way do we “know” future inaccuracy must be due to either the conditions and not turning the “knobs” correctly or bad rifle management. In contrast to that, shooting the kind of group you have posted above on demand is truly rare. Dynamic Wind, light condition, and ever changing mirage and depending on time of year, unfavorable temperature all conspire to destroy that wall hanger. … Especially as the range increase. And, as I am very sure you are aware but others might not be, one moa 100y groups do not translate to 5moa 500y groups, even in the best of stable conditions.

OK, someone else’s turn….

[montana_charlie]

Originally Posted by Chill Wills
"Yup, That is a wall hanger for sure. 100yd ?"

Charlie writes: “Uhh ... yes. I think it's a waste of time to shoot a rifle at any shorter distance except for special occasions ... and a group that small at 200 would be too unbelievable to even post.”

Uhh…Well…since you did not specify I thought I might ask and make sure you did not shoot that great looking target at 50y or 25y. I am just trying to be clear.
Sorry, Chill Wills. The way I answered your question was not intended to disparage you for asking it ... but as a general 'complaint' about a common occurrence on this forum. Because it IS so common, I wasn't surprised that you asked.

CM

[TXGunNut]

Can you settle for this one?
It's about a half inch high and three quarters wide, from a session in September.-montana charlie

Yes, my friend, that's what I'm talking about!