dirty powders

[tuckerdog]

I've noticed a bunch of folks saying they wont use this powder or that because it burns dirty. Now I,m not talking about crusty nasty dirty, but powders like unique 2400 and the like I get good performance out of a few powders that "burn dirty" and have yet to see any detrimental effect to my firearms in a couple decades of using such powders. Unique and 2400 are "cleaner" burning than they used to be but after testing 500 rounds in one session the fouling only became a problem after about 200 rounds and groups opened up. I have seen this with several firearms. the round count varys from gun to gun but over all things are running pretty good. Other than a few kernels in the bore could someone explain the detriment

[noylj]

Yeah, when I used to shoot Unique and lead bullets in my .45 Auto, I would clean the gun every 5k rounds or so. Not that it was less accurate, but simply because I wanted to see the bluing again.
Of course, the people who complain about dirty powders, also clean their guns after every session...

[watkibe]

Yep, I get a secret thrill out of using "dirty" powders myself !

[HeavyMetal]

MY beef with powders like Unique and Bullseye was the residue. In a tight 1911 a couple hundred round got you failures to function.

Switched to WW 542AA ( now Super Target) and 1000 to 1500 was the new "norm"!

As far as 2400 is concerned? Never again!

Didn't seem to matter what primer I used or how tight the boolit pull was 6 rounds would leave unburned powder everywhere! After 6 I would have to brush under the extractor star just to get the old 29 to close without binding! Many was the time I took a piece of white construction paper with me and shook out enough unburned powder to load another round!

2400 may have it's place but I have yet to find it!

noylj is correct: those who need to have a gun function every tiime all the time look for very clean powders to load with!

[Inkman]

I mainly shoot 1911s in USPSA and exclusively used Bullseye because it was cheap and when The Messiah got elected, it was one of the few powders available in quantity. I only shoot lead (never jacketed or factory ammo) and yes it was smokey and somewhat dirty, but on the other hand, i shoot a ton and need to clean my guns often so it's no big deal to me. Shot some VV N320 and it was much less smokey and cleaner but also twice the cost. Haven't shot enough VV yet to decide on switching powders just yet.

Al

[geargnasher]

Dirty powders foul the works of just about any gun eventually, and unlike what Noylj mentioned, I like a clean powder because I DON'T clean my guns after every session if I don't have to (just a wipedown is all they need with clean-burning loads), but if I don't get all the unburned or partially burned residue out of the works it attracts moisture and causes rust over time.

I remember one time I came back from an IDPA match and I was so covered with Unique filth (not to mention the gun) that my wife wouldn't even kiss me at the door, just wrinkled up her nose and said I was filthy and smelled like rotten eggs. That was enough for me. I smelled my shirt later after cleaning up and she was right. Now I use Universal for that application.

I'm also in the camp that has never, ever, gotten 2400 to burn cleanly. I don't think it's possible. I only use it when there is no other powder that will do the same job on target, and there are some cases when that's true.

Gear

[Hardcast416taylor]

I guess it boils down to this. Powders that some people dislike or even hate to look at are the same powders that other people enjoy to use with decent results and don`t mind cleaning their guns after shooting.Robert

[thehouseproduct]

I tried switching from WST to AA#5 in 38 Special and couldn't take the mess. I don't want to clean guns after every trip to the range.

[XWrench3]

What i have found is that many powders burn "dirty" when running them at reduced loads. When using them in full pressure loads, this "problem" goes away. For what it is worth, a fast powder in a reduced load seems to burn much cleaner than a slower powder.

[GabbyM]

I tried switching from WST to AA#5 in 38 Special and couldn't take the mess. I don't want to clean guns after every trip to the range.

I burned a pound of AA#5 through my 9mm a few years back. I found it to be clean burning at the 30,000 psi we run 9mm at. It also delivered on the listed book velocity without excessive pressure signs like expanding case heads. After trying several powder types in 9mm the AA#5 is one of my favorites To bad I didn’t buy a four pound can of it instead of what I have. WW 231, Power Pistol and Unique rate behind AA#5 in the 9mm in my load book.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I was told by the Alliant guy at the last SHOT show that the reason why some powders don't burn as clean as other s is because they never reach their efficient burning pressure.

Specifically, Bullseye burns dirty in a .45 simply because it never gets to a high enough pressure to burn clean. It might work just fine in a 9MM.

W231 does, so now I use that, as I don't clean my Glocks hardly ever.

my .02

Randy

[L Ross]

Just got back in the house after firing 48 rounds of old classic Keith 44 mag reloads featuring the now discredited 22.0 gr of old 2400. How old, well the primers used were round faced, I'm just guessing these were loaded in the late 1960's. Wow, that's what a 44 mag is supposed to be. One handed in a Super Blackhawk and the muzzle is almost straight up in recoil. NRA full size chicken silhouettes slammed off the rail at 35 yards. Cylinder clean, bore, clean, no kernels, a bit of soot, no lead from the 1/16 245 gr 429421's. Oh and a nice fireball in the post sunset evening light. I think those who postulate the enough pressure helps with clean burning have a good point.

Duke

[noylj]

Ummm, sorry. I shoot custom guns by Jim Boland, Clark, and LimCat. They are tight and VERY reliable with Uniaue over at least 5k rounds. I have no idea what loads you are shooting that cause malfunctions in your guns. Even the powder kernals are flat, thin, and flexible. If you are getting gritty residue, it isn't Unique.
People who want reliability, fire a lot of rounds to establish that reliability and don't worry about appearances but performance.
When my guns choke, I can almost always trace it to one problem--some case problem from reloading out of the 2-5k I worked up in my 1050.
I don't have time to drop them all in the barrel or some silly case gage, but I take the blame for not having spotted some case problem. I have eliminated this, as best I can tell, over the last 10k rounds in .40S&W and .45 Auto using the Lee Bulge Buster kit. Still have a 1 out of a 1000 or so problem in .38 super, 9x21, and 9x19 (no bulge buster FCD available).
The only problem I had with "dirty" powders in revolvers were some of the "spherical" powders that would get under the star. Made sure in PPC competition that I always held the cylinder straight up and down when I ejected the cases and blew on the star as I brought the speedloader up.

[Huntducks]

As long as it's accurate and priced to use that's all I care about, but I also own a box full of cleaning ****.

[garym1a2]

My only complain with dirty powders is in my 686 it makes a mess, my hands get coated with it and also all over the gun. Unique is dirty in my 45 and Glock but that does not matter so much. I switch over to WSF for 9mm only because it meters much better and being cleaner was a bonus.
For the 1911 I still use Bulllseye as it seems to be easy for me to get really good accuracy out of it. I can handle a dirty powder for best accuracy.

[prs]

I shoot mostly black powder revolver cartridges in 45 Colt with 250gr boolits with lots of sloppy lube. You wussies complain of dirty smokeless powder?:bigsmyl2:

prs

[Hang Fire]

IMO, Unique may be dirty, (the newer batches claim to be cleaner) but for handguns, rifles and scatterguns, it is the best all around powder available. It may not do any the best, but it will do the job for all. And that is why I have more than an adequate supply always on hand.

[Moonie]

One persons idea of dirty is very different from anothers. My middle son and I currently share an AR-15 (until his lower arrives). When he takes it he complains to everyone that I leave it dirty. But then he is a Marine and feels you must be able to eat off of all of the parts.

[1Shirt]

Just my opinion, but new batches today of pdrs like unique are a whale of a lot cleaner than it was just a few years ago.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[Crash_Corrigan]

A couple of years ago I was lured into the Holy Black. A Winchester 1885 in 50-90 was followed by a 38-55 H&R Target Classic. Then I started to mess with BP in some of my revolvers.

What a hoot. I just love the deep booming report from a case full of BP from my .41 Mag Smith 57 and my Ruger Bisley BH in .44 Special. Yes they are slower to reload because of the the inability to run them thru a progressive loader but the joys outweigh the cons.

There is nothing like that big booming report, large cloud of white smoke and then the CLANG of the lead smacking into the steel. It does however require a thorough cleaning of the firearm after shooting unless you like rust and caked on grunge. And yes I stink of sulphur and sweat when I get done but I love it.

The recoil from BP is more like a solid big push rather than a sharp smack into the hands that I got from full power smokeless rounds. And yes the velocity is lower with BP but the paper and steel does not complain.

With any powder at all my Browning Hi Power will start to slow and malfunction after I get 250 or more rounds thru it. A fast application of Break Free and a wipe down of the guts gets it back into action fast. The Taurus 1911 only needs a few drops of oil or Break Free after about 400 rounds and it is ready for another couple of hundred rounds.

My next ambition is to lay my paws on a Flintlock rifle to free me from the need to use primers as the scarcity of those little guys and the cost may make the Flintlock king of the guns WTSHTF days finally arrive. How long will the primers you have last after all the ammo makers no longer make primers? A year? Maybe two?

At least with a Flinter you can make your own powder and ball ammo and you are not dependent on any of the modern manufacturers for anything. Real slow to load but accurate enuf and it is a gun. Without primers or ammo all the modern M-16's and its ilk are nothing more than inefficient clubs.

I do miss the days when I could buy FMJ 9 MM bullets for less than 4 cents a piece. I had better stop now since I have just dated myself as a Trogdolite.

[Shiloh]

I guess it boils down to this. Powders that some people dislike or even hate to look at are the same powders that other people enjoy to use with decent results and don`t mind cleaning their guns after shooting.Robert

That is what it boils down to. ;)

Shiloh

[Char-Gar]

I have never had a firearm malfunction from powder trash! I an not concerned about dirty vs. clean powders. That is a non-issue with me. I clean my guns and wash my hands after shooting.

Maybe some powders will cause a firearm malfunction after thousands of round in an uncleaned gun. I don't know and I have no intention of finding out. I am just weird that way.

[Ziptar]

Funny this post came up, this very thing has been on my mind all week....

After reading many posts about how much cleaner and less smoky Universal is than Unique. I had a chance to try it out for myself. A few weeks ago as part of a brass trade I received new still sealed pound of Universal. After all I'd read about it, I was eager to give it a try.

I loaded up some 45 Colt with Universal and took it to the range on Tuesday along with some Unique loads I'd done.

I didn't do a grain for grain comparison to the Unique loads I took with me, the Universal was 7.5 gr, since it was my first go round with it I started at the low end. The Unique reloads I had with me were 9.3 gr.

The bullets and lube were exactly same 250 gr RNFP from the same batch all using Thompson's Blue Angel Bullet Lube.

Accuracy wise I wasn't out for any particular MOA, shooting from a bench, or rest I was standing and the yardage wasn't specifically measured it was roughly 25 - 30 yards by eye ball. In other words I was out for some casual plinking and to try out some new to me loads. I shot 20 rounds of each just for starters to see how each worked out.

Everything was shot with the same Marlin 1894.

In the end, I must say, I am unimpressed and I don't get it.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong but, the cases fired with Universal look just as dirty and sooty as those using Unique to me, the Universal smoked a heck of allot more too.

http://www.ziptar.com/reloading/Universal_vs_Unique.jpg

http://www.ziptar.com/reloading/7_5_grains_Universal_25_yards_Marlin_1894.jpghttp://www.ziptar.com/reloading/9_3_grains_Unique_25_yards_Marlin_1894.jpg

I also pulled out some of the cases from my last trip to the range that were loaded with 7.8 grains of Unique, they look exactly the same as well.

http://www.ziptar.com/reloading/7_8_grains_Unique_45_colt.jpg

I'm glad I got a chance to try a "Clean Burning" powder and it didn't cost me anything to try it.

I don't see any reason not to stick with Unique though, even if its is as someone here once put it "Flaming Dirt".

:grin:

[theperfessor]

The lube has as much effect on the "dirtiness" of the gun and the resulting effect on functionality as the powder. If a powder won't cause problems with a jacketed bullet at a certain pressure, why would it cause problems at the same pressure with a cast bullet? Because of the lube. Changing lubes can really change the dirt/gunk level of a gun.

[Three44s]

WOW .......... I must be a lucky dog?

I look at pics and read these accounts and half of the powders are trash?

NOT ........

As far as 2400 ......... it's ALL about horsepower .......... I run it in my .44s with great abandon .......... when it's running poorly .......... there is something wrong.

The poster with sooty cases ........ I'd look at a higher pressure IF it's safe in your firearm. Sooting on the outside of the case is classic not sealing within the chamber.

I have had more trouble with the outside sooting with Titegroup than all my other powder usage combined and if I'm getting it .......... it's because I am loading that light for a reason. Sometimes it seems like a filler with Titegroup may be a contributing factor.

When I want to load down either Unique or 2400 somewhat ........... I resort to magnum primers.

AND with all my metalics .............. I inside flash hole debur. I liken it to giving your car a tune up .......... you want to efficiently utilize your gasoline ............ I want to efficiently utilize my gun powder.

(I debur from the get go with a load development so as to not spike pressures by switching to it "mid-stream")

Caution: Dirty language ................

First thing I do is TRIM my brass uniform ............. and am picky about crimping on revolvers. Good crimps are not possible with uneven brass!

Caution off .............

Then I inside debur .............. I bell generally with the Lyman "M" die.

Lastly, I generally seat and crimp separately.

Three 44s

[maglvr]

I only use UNIQUE and 2400, however, I don't bother with light loads at all. If I shoot it, it is a max hunting load. I have never known either of these powders to be dirty once the pressure is up there. Both can be very dirty with light loads.

[MikeS]

I took my daughter and her boyfriend shooting yesterday. We were shooting 45LC in my 3 SA revolvers, a Ruger Old Army 7.5" with a conversion cylinder, a Blackhawk 4.5", and a Cimmaron Thunderer 3.5" that I just had rebarreled to 45LC from 44 Special. We also had my daughter's Rossi M720 44 Special. In the 45LC's I was shooting some cowboy loads that had a 200gr HARD lead bullet, as well as some of the same stuff that I replaced the factory bullets with some 452423's I had cast from Lyman #2 alloy, but still using the factory powder (I don't know what it was, but there was 5.5gr of it). In the 44 Special I had loaded 4.2gr of Trail Boss with a Mihec GB #503. The 45LC loads were all very dirty, both the ones with the factory cast 200gr bullets with some unknown blue lube, as well as my 452423's that were lubed with 50/50. The 44 loads with TB were cleaner, but not what I would call clean burning. Whenever I go shooting, when I get home, I wipe down the external parts with a rag with bore cleaner on it, and run a bore snake thru the barrel a couple of times. None of the loads we shot leaded the barrels! I mean there was some lead or other dirt in the bore, but a couple of runs of the bore snake left the bores all nice and shiny, with no lead, and as far as I'm concerned, that's not leading. When I shoot my 1911 I will usually field strip it, and again run a bore snake thru the bore, and wipe down the external parts with a rag, and I'll also spray some bore cleaner into the slide, and other exposed parts, and then wipe it down as well as I can with a rag, and call it clean. Whenever I show one of my guns to my local gun dealer, she always tells me I need to learn how to clean a gun, as she always thinks my guns are dirty. There are also some times if I know I'll be shooting again fairly soon that I don't bother cleaning the guns, and so far it hasn't caused me any problems.

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree. I dont use unique in 1911s not because its to dirt but because its to slow to be economical. Ive used tons of bullseye though and have shot matches with guns that have had a 1000 rounds through them and dont remember ever having a stopage that i could blame on filth from bullseye.
Ummm, sorry. I shoot custom guns by Jim Boland, Clark, and LimCat. They are tight and VERY reliable with Uniaue over at least 5k rounds. I have no idea what loads you are shooting that cause malfunctions in your guns. Even the powder kernals are flat, thin, and flexible. If you are getting gritty residue, it isn't Unique.
People who want reliability, fire a lot of rounds to establish that reliability and don't worry about appearances but performance.
When my guns choke, I can almost always trace it to one problem--some case problem from reloading out of the 2-5k I worked up in my 1050.
I don't have time to drop them all in the barrel or some silly case gage, but I take the blame for not having spotted some case problem. I have eliminated this, as best I can tell, over the last 10k rounds in .40S&W and .45 Auto using the Lee Bulge Buster kit. Still have a 1 out of a 1000 or so problem in .38 super, 9x21, and 9x19 (no bulge buster FCD available).
The only problem I had with "dirty" powders in revolvers were some of the "spherical" powders that would get under the star. Made sure in PPC competition that I always held the cylinder straight up and down when I ejected the cases and blew on the star as I brought the speedloader up.

[BAGTIC]

A lot of the older Hercules powders seemed to improve after Alliant took over their manufacture. Alliant is a big mover and shaker in the propellants industry and I suspect it has something to do with their better technical resources.

[beex215]

ive only used unique and its the cleaner burning formula. well thats what it says on the box. im the only shooter in the range thats blowing smoke all over the place. huge white puff of smoke in every shot.

[milprileb]

Gents, you are adults and do as you please but I will hasten to just shoot this star cluster over your tent:

A trust worthy weapon is never enhanced by an operator who fails to maintain it. You can wear your socks all year long and not change them but do you and what would it prove if you did.

I shoot 250 rds at a range session of 1911 in 45 or 9mm and then religiously clean the weapon afterwards. What good does it do to a weapon to shoot long strings (as many
of you posted & bragged about) and let crud build up? The answer is nothing good comes of it except some mark of endurance in your mind.

Clean your weapons, its your responsibility. You are not a serious shooter to do less.

Of course, 28 of 30 yrs active service in Special Forces tends to convince me of what I just posted..... but hey, whats that experience compared to civilians who know everything about everything about weapons !!

[Wayne Smith]

Gents, you are adults and do as you please but I will hasten to just shoot this star cluster over your tent:

A trust worthy weapon is never enhanced by an operator who fails to maintain it. You can wear your socks all year long and not change them but do you and what would it prove if you did.

I shoot 250 rds at a range session of 1911 in 45 or 9mm and then religiously clean the weapon afterwards. What good does it do to a weapon to shoot long strings (as many
of you posted & bragged about) and let crud build up? The answer is nothing good comes of it except some mark of endurance in your mind.

Clean your weapons, its your responsibility. You are not a serious shooter to do less.

Of course, 28 of 30 yrs active service in Special Forces tends to convince me of what I just posted..... but hey, whats that experience compared to civilians who know everything about everything about weapons !!

My only exception to this is when shooting cast boolits that 'season' the bore. Cleaning will cause the first few shots to hit differently than the rest. This is reason to not clean as long as nothing corrosive or hydroscopic is used in the load.

[noylj]

I'm sorry, not being anal retentive, my concern is the accuracy of my guns. Since NOT cleaning them as never, in 35+ years done any harm and the fact the any custom 'smith will tell you that frequent cleaning wears out a gun much faster than shooting it and I plan to have my guns to pass on to my children, I see no need for meaningless cleaning. I'm not firing black powder, there is no rust, and as long as the guns function 100% and the accuracy is as good as it was after a few fouling shots, I'm quite happy.
Talk to Wilson or Baer about frequent cleaning. We aren't in the service and don't have to fight battle field conditions.
I wonder how often the AMU cleans their guns? Of course, they have full-time armorers to continuously work on their guns.

[metweezer]

I wonder how often some of these people shower.

[thehouseproduct]

I wonder how often some of these people shower.
Seriously.

[noylj]

ad hominem attacks should be beneath you all.
It is simply a sign that you can't form a reasonable argument.