Buckshot's 8mm Boolit

[waksupi]

I finally cast some bullets from the buckshot design 8mm this morning. After aging for about twenty minutes, I shot some from a K. Kale Turk, as-issued. Load was 17 gr. 2400. Looks like it may be a shooter. Darn good with iron sights, and a gritty military trigger.

[NVcurmudgeon]

My Yugo also likes Buckshot's masterpiece. I use 19.0 x 2400. The Yugo has the shorter CZ 24 throat, which requires deeper seating (2 1/2 driving bands out of the case.) Having the gas check in the powder space has given no trouble yet. Heavier loads, using 4895 are accurate, but thumpers!

[Buckshot]

.............Waksupi, was that 50 yards?

............Curmudgeon, you bet! Try'em at 2300 fps! Use a 90% casefull of 4831 to start. I used WC852 (slow).

............Buckshot

[waksupi]

that's a hundred yards.

[Buckshot]

that's a hundred yards.

...........You da man!

..........Buckshot

[Char-Gar]

I have some of those Buckshot bullets cast up and an unfired 1929 Persian (BRNO) Mauser. It is time to do some shooting. What sizing diameter are you using for these rifles? Nahh..I am to lazy and it is too hot to slug and measure stuff..Just throw me a size and if it doesn't work, I will try another. I think I have .321,323 and .325 size dies.

[swheeler]

Chagar; I'm sizing in .325 die, try 35-36 grs 7383 plus a poly wad and standard primer, not real fast, but clean and accurate.
Scooter

[StarMetal]

If you fellows remember I did a project to see how fast I could get that same bullet going out of my 98 Yugo mauser. I achieved 2400 some fps with accuracy. You'll have to dig back through the archives here.

Joe

[NVcurmudgeon]

Chargar, I size Buckshot's boolit .325" for my Yugo M48, which has a short throat apparently identical to a CZ 24. I seat to an overall length of 3", which leaves 2 1/2 driving bands in the case and 2 1/2 out. The gas check is below the neck at this length, but accuracy is excellent, and the rifle hasn't blown up yet.

[StarMetal]

Apparently there are some differences in those Yugo's. There is the 48, the 48A, and the 48B. I have an unissued 48B and there isn't a 8mm cast bullet made that is so long that it has to seat below the neck on mine. No short throat on this one.

Joe

[swheeler]

Mine has a shorter throat than Bill's-German mod 98-1937-S code. I have to seat down below the shoulder, accuracy is good.OAL2.955" can just pinch the bolt shut on a round.
Scooter

[MT Gianni]

This is one great looking bullet. Has anyone else wondered what it would weigh in 30 cal? At about 220 grains it would really thump something. Gianni.

[swheeler]

Tried these yesterday, TC blue angel lube, 2.955 OAL, CCI 250 MAG primer,
sized .325, weigh 249 grs w/gc and 4 grooves lubed
54.0 gr WC860-1941 fps
55.0 gr WC872-1919 fps
45.0 gr H4350-2143 fps(leading at muzzle-no lube star)

[swheeler]

and these;
45.0 gr Imr4831-2049 fps
36.0 gr Imr7383-1737 fps(most accurate of loads tested)CCI200 pr

[9.3X62AL]

The Buckshot 8mm shoots well in my G98/40, and requires pretty deep seating to chamber without interference--about 2.94" OAL. I'm not sure what all the concern has been about seating a boolit base into the powder space--a couple of very accurate loads I use in several calibers require deep seating to chamber, and they don't seem to suffer significantly. I prefer not to do so, but as long as the load shoots.......I consider the 8 x 57 Mauser a very good cast boolit caliber, and no slouch as a game caliber either. Buckshot's boolit WOULD "hammer something", to paraphrase Gianni. I had a chance at a Steyr-Mannlicher Professional in 8 x 57 several years ago, and balked at its price ($1100). I sure wish I would have spent the money.

You don't read too much about people hunting in the USA with the 8 x 57. In this country, few sporting rifles are imported in the caliber--but they are made in Europe. I think the caliber is a bit more than the 30-06 in the field when both calibers are loaded to their full potential--but few full-potential 8mm loads are found in the States. Here--you have a tall contract trying to beat out the "all-around" reputation of the 30-06. Add in that almost zero sporting rifles enter the country in 8 x 57, and the poor ammo choices--well, we know the answer. I would have jumped at the Rem Classic in 8 x 57 a couple years back, but the hunting niche it would fill was already occupied by the CZ-550 in 9.3 x 62, and I had a 30-06 as well. In a rare example of common sense regarding rifle acquisitions, I demurred on the Remrifle.

[felix]

Me too, Al, about the rem 700 gun. I am so fond of that 16 twist lever gun barrel in that it would be the twist in a custom barrel. I would have have lands set to .005 tall, and might have the neck made a little longer, close to 30-30 length. Cases would be made from 06 cases, which is extremely easy to do. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Growing up in PA, QUITE alot of my friends used unaltered 8x57 Mauser to hunt whitetail deer and they sure as hell brought the meat home just as good if not better then some of the more popular calibers. Seems back in that day and age the most common rifle encountered in the hunting field was a military one. I believe this was do to that folks couldn't afford the fancy new factory rifles.

Joe

[Wayne Smith]

Anyone have one of the Buckshot 8mm molds they want sell? Sounds like it would shoot in my 8mm-06, but I missed the buy, or didn't have any money when it came by, I don't remember.

[swheeler]

Wayne;I don't know if it is Buckshot's boolit, but I got my mold from Mid-South, listed under special order-8mm maximum, $14.00.
Scooter

[Buckshot]

Wayne;I don't know if it is Buckshot's boolit, but I got my mold from Mid-South, listed under special order-8mm maximum, $14.00.
Scooter

...............swheeler, those 2 special order 8mm moulds at Mid-South are the Oldfeller designs, and are bore riders. Mine is below:

http://www.fototime.com/982F406A87D7DAC/standard.jpg
Depending upon alloy they drop from 236 to about 240grs.

...............BUckshot

[swheeler]

Thanks Buckshot- wrong boolit! It didn't say who designed it like the 6.5 did, disreguard the above info-sorry.
Scooter

[Wayne Smith]

I'll have to check that. I need a mold for my 8mm, and that may be a good start. It's a 93 Turk I bought years ago and had re-chambered and shortened.

[swheeler]

Wayne: It casts 243gr WW, gc'ed and lubed 249+ has a .200 meplat, should make a good hunting boolit! Price is right.
Scooter

[Oldfeller]

Note: before reading the comments below, please check out the drawing located here paying particular notice to the size of that "bore rider nose". Also understand that I like Buckshot just dandy and I think his bullet shoots just fine too -- 'sa fact, she's a shooter (and Buckshot is a fine fellow too).

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=000068MMKAR

Buckshot keeps a saying my bullet is a bore rider nose -- I guess it does look a bit like one on the surface of things, but just on the surface, mind you.

Actually, the nose is designed at .323" bore WALL diameter because that was just barely big enough so it would fit and engrave on the worn original long Paul Mauser designed 8x57 throats that these bullets were designed to fit.

These bullets were designed primarily for the pre-Yugo 48 series guns (although 45 2.1 did make provisions for the bullet to load in these ball-cone throated Yugo 48 A & 48 B guns using a target-type "crush into the rifling" style of loading). And yep, there was no guesswork here -- we used fit up slugs in a dozen different guns to get that information all sussed out correctly before we cut the bullet molds. We did it right.

Now, what happens when you load and fire a .323" nose like on the Karabiner? Well, the rifling engages the bore rider nose 100% to full depth, displacing lead to either side (and pushes lead on out to hit the wall itself when that rifling forces its way on down into the lead as it has no grooves on the nose to displace into).

Squib shoot one of these slugs or tap it into the rifling from the chamber end with a brass rod then push it back out very gently with a rod from the muzzle. Measure the nose diameter accordingly. What you have is a fully wall engaged nose with a 100% bore WALL riding zone displaced out on both sides of the just recently fully engaged rifling lands.

The primary intent was to get good initial bullet alignment by getting good throat and land top engagement upon loading, both out on the nose and at the first driver band even on original type Mausers what had some wear to them. This bullet has NO CHOICE but to line up well and shoot straight in worn throats because it picks up very firm rifling and throat engagement upon loading -- no matter what shape the throat and rifling origin is in. It is designed that way on purpose.

This 8mm Karabiner (about the same weight as Buckshot's bullet) is actually the smaller of the two 8mm bullets listed on Midsouth. The big brother to it is the 8mm Maximum which whupped up on 35 Whelens unmercifully FOR YEARS until Bass finally built himself a 8mm Maximum whupper .35 Whelen caliber bullet off a custom built Dan Mountain mold. So I can't brag on it unconditionally any more, except to say nobody but Bass has a cast .35 Whelen bullet that can actually beat it and there are NO standard production .35 caliber rifle molds that will carry more energy and more impact/meplat over the same long distances as the 8mm Maximum slug can.

And the 8mm Maximum mold (and the Karabiner mold too) is a standard production mold you can buy off the shelf for the exact same great Shooters price of $14 smackeroos (still one a hell of a deal for a custom-designed custom-cut bullet mold, huh).

45 2.1's design is still a winner after all these years. Yep, he drew these bullet designs, not me -- I just take the flack for them periodically.

That's my job <g> ....

Now, do these bullets shoot good? Over 400+ molds sold seem to think so. Midsouth actually STOCKS the 8mm Karabiner and Maximum now because they still sell a steady flow of them to cast bullet freaks all over the world. Buckshot built himself 30-50 molds on his design, I forget which. To all accounts they shot real good, so please take the following comment with a wee grain of salt ..... remember Buckshot's bullet shoots good and I like the rascal what built that bullet too. I ain't a picking on poor old Buckshot.

But I also know many times that "Buckshot's 8mm mold" gets talked about it is really one of the ones that 45 2.1 drew up that is getting talked about because Buckshot's bullet really hasn't been available for years now and that newbie couldn't possibly have one of Buckshot's molds unless somebody died and he got it from an estate sale.

and finally (to the main point) ....

Buckshot, my 8mm nose isn't a low-support bore rider nose (it just happens to look a bit like one). Hey, but yours REALLY IS a "bore rider nose" (land top rider only supported nose) ..... both the .318" section and the .320" section will never pick up any bore wall support like my .323" nose indisputably does once it engraves and displaces the lead outwards. I didn't put any little nose groovies there to allow my lead to displace away backwards into the groove space -- I WANTED to make it displace outwards to take up the slop in even a badly erroded throat/bore junction to FORCE the bullet follow the bore center alignment from the very beginning of bullet motion.

Hell, at .323" as-designed nose diameter you could argue that it is going to go "wall riding" completely apart from rifling displacement effects as .323" is the natural bore wall diameter of a 8x57 Mauser rifle. (yeah, I know about war-time throat/bore wear effects -- we accomodated them by the displacement action that we discovered on the 6.5 Swede bullet nose -- it goes bore wall rider too even though it is a good bit smaller compared to its wall diameter than the 8mm slug's starting nose diameter at .323" diameter)

******************************

t'ain't not no "bore rider" -- nebber was, ain't not never gonna be no such land top "bore rider" slug, not nebber. T'ain't not possible a-t'all.

******************************

<g>

'course now we gotta have the required very heated extended multi-person debate over what the heck you meant when you said "bore rider nose" in the first place.

We really should start us up a new thread for that particular chestnut since we haven't ever never gotten a concensus yet over what to call a "bore rider nose" so half the folks aren't thinking one thing and the other half thinking another thing wilst all of them are using the same term all backards and sideways and being all noisy about it.

<g>

Oldfeller



PS This link shows the stocking status on the 8mm Midsouth molds as of TODAY right now. They will likely go on backorder again real quick because that is what they always do every time we do one of these "best 8mm bullet" discussions. They are in stock as of 8:00 PM 6/27/05. Cut and paste this long-assed address into your browser bar if you want to get one before they sell out again.

And remember, when these puppies first came out for the very first time they created a 4-5 month long period where you COULD NOT BUY A 8MM HORNADAY GAS CHECK TO SAVE YOUR SOUL.

8mm cast slugs got real popular all of a sudden, remember?

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/department.asp?dept=%52%45%4C%4F%41%44%49%4E%47&dept2=%4C%45%41%44%20%42%55%4C%4C%45%54%20%43%41%5 3%54%49%4E%47&dept3=%53%50%45%43%49%41%4C%20%4F%52%44%45%52%20%4 D%4F%55%4C%44%53

[swheeler]

Whew, glad we cleared that up!!!
Scooter

[swheeler]

Wayne Smith: I would really consider finding a "Buckshot" mold if I were you! I loaded some of these "Oldfeller's" up today and put them in a 50 round plastic ammo box, as I started to walk away I heard something? Opened the flip top and there they were patting each other on the back and the worst bunch of braggin' and tootin' their own horns I've ever seen, you probably wouldn't be able to stalk any game with these!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just my 2 cents.
Scooter

[Oldfeller]

Scooter, glad to see you perk up and step forward into the 8mm bullet debate. Got mine in your ammo box as the contender, but where is the champ? Can't have a boxing match without having two boxers ...... can't be a winner without two men in the ring.

Scooter, you really ought to go ask Buckshot for permission to honcho up another group run of his 8mm bullet mold since you like it so much (and it is a very good bullet that deserves another run). I think you'd get enough takers to make a mold run. That way you can do something to contribute to the group and to prove your point.

If you don't like my "bragging" consider this -- what can you do about it if you don't go DO something about it ????

Somebody will lend you some Buckshot 8mm bullets, at least go stage yourself a 8mm shoot-off comparison if you can't see taking the effort to put together a mould run.

If this actually motivates you to do something, then good -- consider designing yourself a better designed 8mm bullet than either one of these two old custom cut designs.

It ought to be possible, you know.

I bet you both Buckshot and 45 2.1 have had some additional thoughts on 8mm bullet design since then and one could actually be constructed that would fit in a LEE six hole block since everybody likes those blocks so well.

<g>

Oldfeller



Oops, golly gee -- I done forgot. We did just that with the 8mm Karabiner, it was originally cut to just barely fit in a six hole block and the first sets were cut that way. Oh well, at least you know how long the bullet can be ....

[waksupi]

I started this thread, just showing the, what is now known as, Buckshot design, result on paper. I have also shot the Oldfeller design, with similar results in the past. I have both molds. Do I understand someone is trying to argue the merits of the bullets, without access to both designs? Amusing. Both were designed with somewhat different end results and applications in mind, both of which are filled admirably, and both work as intended.

[StarMetal]

I posted this same target on the old forum on shooting 45 2.1's and oldfeller's heavy 8mm bullet. This is what a 48B Yugo will do. There are multiple groups on here and the one we're talking about it the lower lefthand side with the circle drawed around it. That 4 into a ragged hole and the 5th just outside of it for a one inch group.

Joe

http://www.hunt101.com/img/250366.JPG

[waksupi]

As long as a writer has never shot the bullets thier selves, (or rifle, pistol, whatever is selling advertising that month), they can make a living for the next twenty years arguing the merits of A vs B. And some dumb bastard will still buy the magazine, to get the next pearl of wisdom that supports thier current belief, espoused by some other hack writer. Short magnums, anyone? ( My apologies to the professional writers who haunt this board. If you are here, you are interested in learning, and contributing to the knowledge. Thank you. If your just stealing info for your column, bugger off!)
You may have your opinion, but until you have actually shot the bullets, don't bring it here. We have enough shooting the "real thing" to know how something will perform.
That sounds grouchy. I don't mean to be, I just don't want to see the birth of any old wives tales here.
And I've had about a half dozen shots of Irish whisky. I'm always MUCH smarter after that.

[Oldfeller]

Actually, Waksupi -- it's all my fault. I haven't been posting enough lately to spit on and folks aren't used to me rattling the trees to get the pile-ons to fly out of the branches (or what can happen next when they do fly out).

Seriously, Buckshot's 8mm needs another mold run or we need to design another 8mm (or a 7mm bullet, we never did cut the last 7mm design). Shame is that I am still living "mobile" or I'd be tempted to do something about it.

Anyhooo --- I also note there are NO NEW DIFFERENT milsurps hitting the market, so our "need" to make up new bullets is hitting somewhat of a slow season. Good to see several custom mold jobs are circulating thought.

Oldfeller

[45 2.1]

Seriously, Buckshot's 8mm needs another mold run or we need to design another 8mm (or a 7mm bullet, we never did cut the last 7mm design). Shame is that I am still living "mobile" or I'd be tempted to do something about it.

Oldfeller-
Don't let that stop you. E-mail me an address.

[StarMetal]

Oldfeller

On that new 7mm don't make it don't make it a big old tractor trailer cruise missile, let's go for a medium weight.

Joe

[swheeler]

at least I know two people got it! and yes Oldfeller was one of them! sarcassum

[C1PNR]

Seriously, Buckshot's 8mm needs another mold run or we need to design another 8mm (or a 7mm bullet, we never did cut the last 7mm design). Shame is that I am still living "mobile" or I'd be tempted to do something about it.

Oldfeller-
Don't let that stop you. E-mail me an address.
IIRC, both the Buckshot and OF 8mm designs were 1.2" long. Will that dimension fit into the Lee 6 cavity mould? 'Cause I sure don't like the idea of a "custom" Lee in a 1 or 2 cavity, .30 HBC not withstanding!

And the 7mm you mention, is that the 1.04" I have in my records marked for the '93 and '95 Mausers? In .290" diameter? I presume that one would certainly fit the Lee 6 hole specs, no?

Thanks for bringing this up waksupi. I hope something good comes of it all.:)

[45 2.1]

IIRC, both the Buckshot and OF 8mm designs were 1.2" long. Will that dimension fit into the Lee 6 cavity mould? 'Cause I sure don't like the idea of a "custom" Lee in a 1 or 2 cavity, .30 HBC not withstanding!
And the 7mm you mention, is that the 1.04" I have in my records marked for the '93 and '95 Mausers? In .290" diameter? I presume that one would certainly fit the Lee 6 hole specs, no?

1.2" is pushing it, but can be done. 1.1" is much better as a maximum to fit in a six cavity. Your 7mm records are pretty close, I have a few variations in several drawings.

[Oldfeller]

Well, if memory serves 45 2.1 and Buckshot et al did pretty much come to a consensus on a Loverin 7mm design that would fit in a LEE six hole block.

I know both 45 2.1 and Buckshot were after a Loverin for the 7mm and actually had talked me into the Loverin format and a broad concensus drawing had been created and had been fully dimensioned to accomodate all the various throat slugs that got reported (and there were about 7 fit-up slugs reported all told and their consistency was actually pretty good).

Buckshot had posted the graphic of the Loverin drawing as a "go" drawing to collect the orders and the orders were very scant coming in indeed, not enough to do it at the time.

We all agreed to run the 6.5 Kurtz mold order first since it was rolling in more orders then regroup on the 7mm order once the 6.5 order was shipped, cast, shot, digested and was off the groups corporate plate so to speak.

Still sounds like a plan to me. If Buckshot doesn't want to collect the coins for this Loverin 7mm mold since he just did the 6.5 Kurtz he can ask for the next community spirited person to step forward and collect the checks (or he can do the next one too, no nevermind to me in either case as I am still eating cheap out of cans, driving a lot and dressing out of a suitcase every morning).

The modern mobile life-style sucks by the way -- apart from Books A Million, Barnes & Noble and Boarders there is no good place to kill an evening out there in "anywhere USA".


***********************

Naw, what we really ought to do is make ol' Scooter to do it -- that will teach him enough to have him an "informed opinion" on them there special mold runs (or at least larn him not to use big ol' citified words like sarcassum)

<g>

Oldfeller

[Bret4207]

Kelly- your comment on no place to spend an evening reminds me of my time in NYC after 9/11. One of my Sgts, knowing I was pretty much a woodchuck, mountain-boy, farmer asked me what I thought of NYC. I told him bluntly, "There isn't a darn thing for me to do down here." He, being from Lung Eyelund, looked at me like I had 3 heads and started rattling off a list of things he thought any normal person would enjoy doing. The list centered around shopping for clothes (get real! clothes come from WalMart and Sears), the "Theatre" (no,no,no!!!) and exploring multi-culturalism/alternative life styles. The last one just made me laugh, which he found offensive. I got more out of talking with some building supers who gave me the cooks tour of the suppoting structure of some of the skyscrapers and a visit to a FDNY fire boat station than anything else. I ended up finding that a good large shot of Nyquil and a couple beers made the days (I worked nights mostly) go by pretty quick sleep-wise and the nights took care of themselves.

[Wayne Smith]

WOW! A custom mold for <$13.00! Does life get better? I'd go for that 7mm Louverin or similar design for my 7mm Mauser (Chileano short) if someone wants to get it going. Don't know as I'd need a 6 cavity, but I'd not say no to one.

[45 2.1]

Well, having a custom 7mm bullet is better than not having one, isn't it.

[Wayne Smith]

I'll let you know as soon as I get it!